Black Crow Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 That's interesting. I wonder if that was the reaction D&D were going for. That part in the show always seemed stupid to me, but that is undoubtedly because I read the books. Hard to imagine that scene from an unsullied point of view... I'd say the intention was pretty straightforward in that the original visions would have been totally incomprehensible to anyone who hadn't read and inwardly digested the books. What it set out to do was depict Danaerys' temptations. Had she been tempted by either of the visions offered she would not only have been lost but oblivious to her being lost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 My "insistence" is what GRRM wrote. At some point, relatively late in the story, Arya will turn up on the Wall by which time Jon has matured into a ranger of great daring and becomes Lord Commander. That's what's in there. The matter of their ages is in truth pretty irrelevant and I say that not in a cavalier fashion but because all of the children of Winterfell are running around doing impossible or at the very least improbable things in regards to their notional ages. While its easy to argue that Arya needs longer to grow up, that applies to all of the children. The route mapped out for Arya in that synopsis may seem unlikely in that regard but it is consistent with the treatment of her siblings My bewilderment only grows.... Yes, your insistence comes from one of the most altered paragraphs in the entire letter....written in 1993...before scrapping the 5-year gap. Jon and Arya were necessary for the Jon/Arya/Tyrion love triangle. In case you haven't noticed, that's been scrapped... and with it, the dynamic surrounding Jon and Arya's romance: Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family. Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell. Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.[...] Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow. Their whole dynamic has been replaced BC. GRRM wrote, "Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy..." but alas, now it's nothing more than fond memories of hair-mussing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Yes wws, i'm not stressing about the caps.Alas the issue I have with this theory is the same issue I have with the Craster's sons as wws.Bran is only saying what he's heard, what Robert said what Ned never acknowledges when Robert said this to his face.It is all conclusion drawn from actions individuals can't explain. A human thing to do.I disagree, on us knowing about Lyanna. We've heard of her and seen her in Bran's vision and we have a comparison with Arya.She was boyish in looks and in behavior to the point it was well known of her, would have picked up a sword had Rickard allow. Fought with her brothers and galloped like a Centaur with Brandon.Those are hints into what she was and wanted to be which was not the conformed lady.We'look have to disagree on this one Voice. I agree with all that actually. RLJ is but one unproven theory of many. But the sex is reported to have occurred, per Bran. I don't take that as gospel, but I don't dismiss it as rubbish either. Honestly, there aren't that many things to do with a woman once you've stolen her, as Jon soon realized. Either you kill her, bed her, or release her. These were the days before Xboxes, so it seems like they'd both get bored rather quickly if they didn't shag. Perhaps it is simple for me to imagine wooing a tomboy who galloped around like a centaur, because my wife was exactly that way when I first met her. Even warrior women can fall in love. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 My bewilderment only grows.... Their whole dynamic has been replaced BC. GRRM wrote, "Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy..." but alas, now it's nothing more than fond memories of hair-mussing. From my side, you're still missing the point. The story has changed and expanded certainly, but since Arya has not yet arrived at the Wall it is far too premature to declare it aint gonna happen. Rather more fundamentally it is also far too premature to decide that Jon Snow's bastardy has been changed from a "domestic" plot device to something completely different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 But the sex is reported to have occurred, per Bran. I don't take that as gospel, but I don't dismiss it as rubbish either. No, a rather small boy [now a powerful greenseer - expected to work wonders - despite being younger than his sister Arya] has heard gossipy stories - and perhaps even heard an incautious ballad singer - but by no stretch of the imagination can this be considered as evidence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 I agree with all that actually. RLJ is but one unproven theory of many. But the sex is reported to have occurred, per Bran. I don't take that as gospel, but I don't dismiss it as rubbish either. Honestly, there aren't that many things to do with a woman once you've stolen her, as Jon soon realized. Either you kill her, bed her, or release her. These were the days before Xboxes, so it seems like they'd both get bored rather quickly if they didn't shag. Perhaps it is simple for me to imagine wooing a tomboy who galloped around like a centaur, because my wife was exactly that way when I first met her. Even warrior women can fall in love.Well if the state of the Kingdom was as is and Rhaegar sought to make changes I can't see him getting his shag on consistently wanted or otherwise.But we know there were other men with her one who is hot to her cold, south to her north and probably wooed her with stories of how she reminded him of Nymeria. Lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Well if the state of the Kingdom was as is and Rhaegar sought to make changes I can't see him getting his shag on consistently wanted or otherwise.So you think Rhaegar raped her and 3kgs let that happen because what,they liked Rhaegar's eyes?Because that and Rhaegar abducting her is what we are "told"But we know there were other men with her one who is hot to her cold, south to her north and probably wooed her with stories of how she reminded him of Nymeria. Lol... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Double post. ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 From my side, you're still missing the point. The story has changed and expanded certainly, but since Arya has not yet arrived at the Wall it is far too premature to declare it aint gonna happen. Rather more fundamentally it is also far too premature to decide that Jon Snow's bastardy has been changed from a "domestic" plot device to something completely different. Oh I see now, I think... You're saying just because it hasn't happened doesn't mean it cant. That's true. But given the way their romance was woven into the 1993 versions of events, and the way it isn't now, it would feel forced and clumsy don't you think? Two years have passed since Jon and Robb found the direwolves in the snow. Only two. And now, there will be no 5-year gap. Rather than setting up the eventual romance with tormented memories of passion during those two years, Jon has only remembered mussing her hair and Arya remembers him calling her "little sister." The script's been flipped. And at this point, their romance would serve no literary purpose. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Well if the state of the Kingdom was as is and Rhaegar sought to make changes I can't see him getting his shag on consistently wanted or otherwise.But we know there were other men with her one who is hot to her cold, south to her north and probably wooed her with stories of how she reminded him of Nymeria. Lol... There are hundreds of men at the tourney of course, but we only hear of her interacting with Howland and Rhaegar... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grrrod Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 :cheers: <!~~~ coffee If he is a bit of both, why doesn't he have any... dragon dreams? fire desciptions? anything like that? In fact, he's got about zero similarities with Rhaegar, except for some superficial "melancholy" traits, but I don't think he's particularly melancholy. He's also not a scholar, though certainly as well educated as any other noble child. Decent battle skills, also not a unique trait for a noble boy raised in a castle. Not giving you a hard time, I'd actually like to know why you think he is a bit of both... I've never been able to wrap my head around Jon being Ice and Fire, when, just like Mel, all we see is "snow." Not at all. I was working from Jon's assumed heritage. If he does indeed turn out to half Raegar, then he's half fire. Though that does unbalance things some (ice/fire) if the endgame is Jon with Dany, assuming Daenerys is in fact who she believes herself to be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 No, a rather small boy [now a powerful greenseer - expected to work wonders - despite being younger than his sister Arya] has heard gossipy stories - and perhaps even heard an incautious ballad singer - but by no stretch of the imagination can this be considered as evidence. What you have written here is fan fiction, which is also not evidence ;) We don't know the context of Bran's learning. If we did know it was just some household gossip (unlikely, as Robert says the same thing) or came from some incautious ballad singer (unlikely as they don't often travel that far North), then, I'd be with you. As it stands, as Bran's emphatic declaration, it cannot be dismissed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 We are talking about a very small boy who was born eight years after whatever happened went down. He is in no condition to declare anything emphatically. Its a story he's heard - and certainly not heard at his father's knee. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 We are talking about a very small boy who was born eight years after whatever happened went down. He is in no condition to declare anything emphatically. Its a story he's heard - and certainly not heard at his father's knee. A story echoed by his king, who started a rebellion to get her back Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wolfmaid7 Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 A story echoed by his king, who started a rebellion to get her back No he didn't....He didn't start any rebellion.Arryn did Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Two years have passed since Jon and Robb found the direwolves in the snow. Only two. By the calendar perhaps, but in everything else no. Hence my reference to Bran the powerful Greenseer. And then we have Robb the one-time King in the North and victorious general - at 15. Jon Snow likewise. All of the kids are acting way above their pay-scale Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 A story echoed by his king, who started a rebellion to get her back And who is young Bran therefore to doubt it, because its not Trouserless Bob echoing Bran but Bran echoing Bob :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Voice Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 So which is it? A widespread story or something he happened to overhear from a random gossiper? Seems like you're arguing both sides here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted March 30, 2015 Author Share Posted March 30, 2015 Not at all. I was working from Jon's assumed heritage. If he does indeed turn out to half Raegar, then he's half fire. Though that does unbalance things some (ice/fire) if the endgame is Jon with Dany, assuming Daenerys is in fact who she believes herself to be. Well, there's a big if here, because a popular theory [no matter how fiercely proclaimed elsewhere] isn't an accomplished fact, but rather, according to GRRM's missus, far too obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gala Posted March 30, 2015 Share Posted March 30, 2015 Re the blood - it's still all kind of fuzzy in ASoIaF. Targs have a thing with dragons. Starks have a thing with Ice and the north. But you can't tell me that Jon Snow is the first time Targ and Stark blood has ever produced an offspring? The way Targs like taking brides on their wedding nights, there have probably been hundreds of people with Jon Snow's particular combination (if R+L=J) before. Actually, no. There are no evidence of any Stark -Targ children. There was a Pact of Ice and Fire, but it wasn't fulfilled- a Stark heir + a Targ bride marriage. There are no many examples of mixing First Men blood with dragonlord's blood- the one very important and significant example is Bloodraven (who is Blackwood by his mother, a descendant of one of the kings of First Men, just like Starks, by the way there were few Blackwoods in Stark's ancestry as well). Bloodraven isn't exactly simple person, is he? As far as we know, from all of the books and histories of ASoIaF world, Starks never had much southern blood in them and Targs visited the North only few times (Aegon, Jaehaerys and Alysanne, Jacaerys Velaryon, Aemon, Egg - is this all?!). No first nights ever mentioned, I mean Stark bride-Targ king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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