Heresy 165

[Melifeather]

Don't recall the question, but at best leaving Jon with the Daynes is leaving Ser Arthur's bastard. Lord Eddard, alive, can accept his shame and his sullied honour [even if Catelyn can't], Ser Arthur is dead and his friends and near relations don't want a bastard to sully his posthumous reputation, especially as the mother is dead. In taking the boy back home Ned is doing them a favour by taking Ser Arthur's shame upon himself.

I cannot get behind the whole honor protecting...if Jon is Arthur's bastard, even if Ned wanted to bring him home as Lyanna's son, there should be no danger or shame as being revealed as Arthur's bastard.

[Rhaegarslance]

That would leave Jon in a deep "puddle of his own making". No son of R+L (i.e., no Targaryen blood), no son of AD (meaning, no Sword of The Morning), just Ned's bastard. Of course, you may be right since GRRM is not the one who'll bring us ending with happily ever after, but still... He is also known to be the one who doesn't do obvious.

What if Benjen joining the Watch was somehow related to Lyanna's death? I.e., if Ned got some secret knowledge from his sister (here is the promise) and after his return brothers agreed that one Stark is needed at the Wall. To find out what's happening in the North, for example. One wouldn't be surprised if Lyanna possesed some knowledge which wasn't available for most at that time. She spent quite some time with Rhaegar who was digging into old prophecies. KG spent a lot of time "far away", too. They could have travelled without Lyanna, but they too could bring back some interesting things. And we have Howland's travel to Isle of Faces (maybe with Lyanna). Yea, I'm still trying to connect that black Lyanna's palm to something.

Well I'm not sure if you saw my earlier post, but if Lyanna's request was indeed to look after baby Jon, then it seems far more likely to me that she asked Ned to have Benjen raise the child, as Lyanna was actually close to Benjen but wasn't with Ned. If this was the case, then I'd view Benjen's joining of the Watch as a way to reject this request. Hence why he's mad when he sees how Jon acts at Winterfell and comments on how it's a pity that he didn't raise Jon (as if he had the chance), and why he refuses to interact with Jon at Castle Black (as he turned to the Watch to rid himself of Jon but it's snuck up on him again)

As to Benjen possibly joining because he and Ned thought that a Stark was needed at the Wall, at the very least I've always found it odd that Ned says that the day will come when he must march beyond the Wall to deal with Mance Rayder. As far as I'm aware, only Theon Stark, a man who always sought war, decided to march on the wildlings. Generally speaking, the Starks don't get involved until the wildlings get past the Wall and are threatening their lands. So why is Ned, the man who abhors war, actively seeking out a fight beyond the Wall?

It isn't :D It's just something I bring up to get folks to consider Benjen. Once we leave Lyanna out of the equation, Benjen becomes a very likely candidate to be Jon's father.

Indeed we don't know how faithful he was. We don't really know much at all about Benjen. But we do know that GRRM planned to reveal the secret of Jon's parentage "in the final book," and that Benjen went missing in the first book. He isn't back yet. I think he might turn up for the end, on ice until the final reveal. He might be the keeper of the secret, rather than Howland.

I see the High Priest as Howland. It isn't an exact recreation by any means...

Rhaegar certainly conjured the political aspect of the Tourney, but I believe he never planned on the ritualistic side of it. I think that as he was trying to usurp his father, and play his game of thrones, he was caught up in something completely unknown to him. TKotLT is a weird story. Really really weird. Who is the fool, and who is the priest?

As to the Song of Ice and Fire, we already know that Rhaegar believed his son Aegon to be tptwp. So by this time, he had no need of Lyanna. But, through her wiles, or Howland's, she ends up ensuring Rhaegar's ptwp dies. The Tourney was the beginning of Rhaegar's sacrifice. And I don't think he knew it.

That being said, I do like your spin on it. I'll have to think about it more. It seems to me that by this time Rhaegar believes he's already perfected the experiment, and created tptwp. Howland, fresh off the Isle of Faces, plays everyone like a fiddle and throws a wrench in Rhaegar's ambitions, Rickard's southron ambitions, etc. Basically, Howland ensured the survival of the Green, rather than the dragon or wolf. All conjecture of course, so I'm completely open to alternatives.

The little things make us wonder, but

1. I agree. And I still consider RLJ a very viable theory, even if it is obvious. People think you are insane when you say Jon could just be Ned's son. That's how obvious, yet not, it is.

2. This is the real reason I brought up Benjen+Lyanna. Not because I think it's true, but because it is easy for people to think Lyanna is the mother. Too easy. Yet people never give much weight to Benjen as his father. Yet, he was sent to the Wall around the time of Jon's conception. And Jon, wait for it.... is also sent to the Wall.

Consider this passage:

Benjen gave Jon a careful, measuring look. “You don’t miss much, do you, Jon? We could use a man like you on the Wall.”

Jon swelled with pride. “Robb is a stronger lance than I am, but I’m the better sword, and Hullen says I sit a horse as well as anyone in the castle.”

“Notable achievements.”

“Take me with you when you go back to the Wall,” Jon said in a sudden rush. “Father will give me leave to go if you ask him, I know he will.”

Uncle Benjen studied his face carefully. “The Wall is a hard place for a boy, Jon.”

“I am almost a man grown,” Jon protested. “I will turn fifteen on my next name day, and Maester Luwin says bastards grow up faster than other children.”

“That’s true enough,” Benjen said with a downward twist of his mouth. He took Jon’s cup from the table, filled it fresh from a nearby pitcher, and drank down a long swallow.

“Daeren Targaryen was only fourteen when he conquered Dorne,” Jon said. The Young Dragon was one of his heroes.

“A conquest that lasted a summer,” his uncle pointed out. “Your Boy King lost ten thousand men taking the place, and another fifty trying to hold it. Someone should have told him that war isn’t a game.” He took another sip of wine. “Also,” he said, wiping his mouth, “Daeren Targaryen was only eighteen when he died. Or have you forgotten that part?”

“I forget nothing,” Jon boasted. The wine was making him bold. He tried to sit very straight, to make himself seem taller. “I want to serve in the Night’s Watch, Uncle.”

He had thought on it long and hard, lying abed at night while his brothers slept around him. Robb would someday inherit Winterfell, would command great armies as the Warden of the North. Bran and Rickon would be Robb’s bannermen and rule holdfasts in his name. His sisters Arya and Sansa would marry the heirs of other great houses and go south as mistress of castles of their own. But what place could a bastard hope to earn?

“You don’t know what you’re asking, Jon. The Night’s Watch is a sworn brotherhood. We have no families. None of us will ever father sons. Our wife is duty. Our mistress is honor.”

“A bastard can have honor too,” Jon said. “I am ready to swear your oath.”

“You are a boy of fourteen,” Benjen said. “Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up.”

“I don’t care about that!” Jon said hotly.

“You might, if you knew what it meant,” Benjen said. “If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son.”

Jon felt anger rise inside him. “I’m not your son!”

Benjen Stark stood up. “More’s the pity.” He put a hand on Jon’s shoulder. “Come back to me after you’ve fathered a few bastards of your own, and we’ll see how you feel.”

venom.

Jon trembled. “I will never father a bastard,” he said carefully. “Never!” He spat it out like venom.

And this one:

That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. “Never ask me about Jon,” he said, cold as ice. “He is my blood, and that is all you need to know. And now I will learn where you heard that name, my lady.” She had pledged to obey; she told him; and from that day on, the whispering had stopped, and Ashara Dayne’s name was never heard in Winterfell again.

Whoever Jon’s mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned’s sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse. “Jon must go,” she said now.

“He and Robb are close,” Ned said. “I had hoped...”

“He cannot stay here,” Catelyn said, cutting him off. “He is your son, not mine. I will not have him.” It was hard, she knew, but no less the truth. Ned would do the boy no kindness by leaving him here at Winterfell.

The look Ned gave her was anguished. “You know I cannot take him south. There will be no place for him at court. A boy with a bastard’s name... you know what they will say of him. He will be shunned.”

Catelyn armored her heart against the mute appeal in her husband’s eyes. “They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself.”

“And none of them has ever been seen at court!” Ned blazed. “The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He—”

His fury was on him. He might have said more, and worse, but Maester Luwin cut in. “Another solution presents itself,” he said, his voice quiet. “Your brother Benjen came to me about Jon a few days ago. It seems the boy aspires to take the black.”

Ned looked shocked. “He asked to join the Night’s Watch?”

Catelyn said nothing. Let Ned work it out in his own mind; her voice would not be welcome now. Yet gladly would she have kissed the maester just then. His was the perfect solution. Benjen Stark was a Sworn Brother. Jon would be a son to him, the child he would never have. And in time the boy would take the oath as well. He would father no sons who might someday contest with Catelyn’s own grandchildren for Winterfell.

Benjen didn't ask "father." He went straight to the maester. It's interesting. If Benjen is the father, I don't think Lyanna is the mother. She doesn't need to be. And her bloody bed can be a meaningless fever dream, or a red herring. We have one "Uncle" who is infamously (and actually) the Father of the king, right now.

Yup. People ignore Benjen as a possible father despite the fact that he is indeed a Stark. And at least in my mind, the first passage indicates that Benjen has slept with a woman before.

If Arthur is the father, the Daynes could have kept the child - no need for Ned.

If Howland is the father, Greywater Watch is the better hidey-hole as well as being with his natural father - no need for Ned.

I guess it could be embarrassing if Benjen or Brandon were the father, but Robert would likely care less, so no need for Ned to hide Jon's identity.

Commenting on the two highlighted sentences above....

A tricky question and answer regarding the three heads of the dragon when Targaryens is plural. Having a singular female heroine is less obvious and naturally the paternalistic society of Westeros wouldn't necessarily recognize her as the princess that was promised, but Aemon identified her by her three dragons.

I really like the theory that both the Starks and Targaryens are heretics. Has Heresy already thoroughly delved into this possibility?

Well no matter who the father was if it wasn't in fact Ned's child, the kid still looked like a Stark. You can't exactly hide a Stark with people who don't look like Starks and hope to pass him off.

As to the first I think that underestimates Lord Eddard's attachment to Lyanna and the boy being a son of Winterfell. I rather think that from Ned's perspective that would entail leaving him among strangers, especially is Ashara is actually doing a runner overseas with young Aegon.

As to the second I don't recall that we've discussed this properly on heresy before, but I suspect its a topic with some mileage to it.

But as we see, Ned didn't really know Lyanna. He left her when she was 4 years old and lived in the Vale for almost all of her life. He knew her and loved her because she was his sister, but I don't think he was really attached to her at all, nor was he to his family in general (his skipping of Brandon's wedding speaks volumes in my mind).

AGOT Ned is not the Ned of the Rebellion/pre-Rebellion.

[Matthew.]

What is the big threat, though? A Targaryen bastard, shouldn't pose a threat to the Lannister's claim to the throne. I don't ascribe to the Rhaegar/Lyanna marriage theory, much less Rhaegar as Jon's father, but I do think it will turn out to be Aerys. Even if he's Aerys's son I still believe Jon is a bastard and that being a bastard itself is important to the story.

The big threat is that Jon could easily become a rallying point for the "losers" of Robert's Rebellion, such as Highgarden, especially when the shit hit the fan after Robert's death. Imagine that things had played out roughly as they did - Robert dies, it's being widely spread that Joffrey is illegitimate (and Joffrey himself becomes rapidly unpopular), Stannis is in open rebellion - and in the midst of this, you have a known son of Rhaegar, or Aerys if you prefer, in the North. Bastard or not, he would have the blood of kings from two different lines. If Daemon Blackfyre or Renly Baratheon could gather supporters for their dubious claims, why not Jon?

[Melifeather]

The big threat is that Jon could easily become a rallying point for the "losers" of Robert's Rebellion, such as Highgarden, especially when the shit hit the fan after Robert's death. Imagine that things had played out roughly as they did - Robert dies, it's being widely spread that Joffrey is illegitimate (and Joffrey himself becomes rapidly unpopular), Stannis is in open rebellion - and in the midst of this, you have a known son of Rhaegar, or Aerys if you prefer, in the North. Bastard or not, he would have the blood of kings from two different lines. If Daemon Blackfyre or Renly Baratheon could gather supporters for their dubious claims, why not Jon?

Renly was never a bastard and Daemon was a legitimized. Daemon was recognized by his father King Aegon IV when he was 12 and was presented with a family sword, and later legitimized when King Aegon IV was on his death bed. Are there any bastards that were able to rally support?

I can see how Ned may have worried that Tywin would have had Jon killed if he is indeed Targaryen, especially so soon after Jaime killed King Aerys and the Mountain killed Elia, Rhaenys and baby Aegon. Even if Jon were a Targaryen bastard, maybe he didn't want to take any chances, but it wasn't out of any belief that Jon had a claim to the throne.

[wolfmaid7]

Well I'm not sure if you saw my earlier post, but if Lyanna's request was indeed to look after baby Jon, then it seems far more likely to me that she asked Ned to have Benjen raise the child, as Lyanna was actually close to Benjen but wasn't with Ned. If this was the case, then I'd view Benjen's joining of the Watch as a way to reject this request. Hence why he's mad when he sees how Jon acts at Winterfell and comments on how it's a pity that he didn't raise Jon (as if he had the chance), and why he refuses to interact with Jon at Castle Black (as he turned to the Watch to rid himself of Jon but it's snuck up on him again)

As to Benjen possibly joining because he and Ned thought that a Stark was needed at the Wall, at the very least I've always found it odd that Ned says that the day will come when he must march beyond the Wall to deal with Mance Rayder. As far as I'm aware, only Theon Stark, a man who always sought war, decided to march on the wildlings. Generally speaking, the Starks don't get involved until the wildlings get past the Wall and are threatening their lands. So why is Ned, the man who abhors war, actively seeking out a fight beyond the Wall?

Yup. People ignore Benjen as a possible father despite the fact that he is indeed a Stark. And at least in my mind, the first passage indicates that Benjen has slept with a woman before.

Well no matter who the father was if it wasn't in fact Ned's child, the kid still looked like a Stark. You can't exactly hide a Stark with people who don't look like Starks and hope to pass him off.

But as we see, Ned didn't really know Lyanna. He left her when she was 4 years old and lived in the Vale for almost all of her life. He knew her and loved her because she was his sister, but I don't think he was really attached to her at all, nor was he to his family in general (his skipping of Brandon's wedding speaks volumes in my mind).

AGOT Ned is not the Ned of the Rebellion/pre-Rebellion.

“You are a boy of fourteen,” Benjen said. “Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up.”

“I don’t care about that!” Jon said hotly.

“You might, if you knew what it meant,” Benjen said. “If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son.”

Jon felt anger rise inside him. “I’m not your son!”

Benjen Stark stood up. “More’s the pity.” He put a hand on Jon’s shoulder. “Come back to me after you’ve fathered a few bastards of your own, and we’ll see how you feel.”

Now how would Benjen know what the above feels like??

I cannot get behind the whole honor protecting...if Jon is Arthur's bastard, even if Ned wanted to bring him home as Lyanna's son, there should be no danger or shame as being revealed as Arthur's bastard.

No shame being the bastard son of "uber KGs Arthur Dayne?" Unlike the NW that type of transgression was taken seriously by the KGs of the past and pre Robert's Rebellion.It might be forgotten eventually or taken as every man does it in the NW.The KGs though.Can you imagine fathering a bastard off a LP's intended being put in AD one page in "The book of Deeds?"

"Ser Terrence Toyne's treason and the deceits of Lucamore the Lusty are recorded in the White Book, but there is no hint of a woman on Prince Lewyn Martell’s page."

he [selmy] had often glanced through the pages of the White Book, where the deeds of his predecessors had been recorded. Some had been heroes, some weaklings, knaves, or cravens. Most were only men—quicker and stronger than most, more skilled with sword and shield, but still prey to pride, ambition, lust, love, anger, jealousy, greed for gold, hunger for power, and all the other failings that afflicted lesser mortals. The best of them overcame their flaws, did their duty, and died with their swords in their hands. The worst ... The worst were those who played the game of thrones

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

For those of you that think Dayne is an option to be Jon's father can you summarize your reasons for thinking so? Thanks in advance and if u could use small words and concise sentences for simpletons like me that'd be awesome.

[Melifeather]

“You are a boy of fourteen,” Benjen said. “Not a man, not yet. Until you have known a woman, you cannot understand what you would be giving up.”

“I don’t care about that!” Jon said hotly.

“You might, if you knew what it meant,” Benjen said. “If you knew what the oath would cost you, you might be less eager to pay the price, son.”

Jon felt anger rise inside him. “I’m not your son!”

Benjen Stark stood up. “More’s the pity.” He put a hand on Jon’s shoulder. “Come back to me after you’ve fathered a few bastards of your own, and we’ll see how you feel.”

Now how would Benjen know what the above feels like??

No shame being the bastard son of "uber KGs Arthur Dayne?" Unlike the NW that type of transgression was taken seriously by the KGs of the past and pre Robert's Rebellion.Can you imagine fathering a bastard off a LP's intended being put in AD one page in "The book of Deeds?"

You'll have to help me remember any mention that the KG's were held to a higher standard than any king or lord of a castle, because I cannot recall any passage to support that.

As for Benjen being Jon's father, I think there's more evidence that Mance is Jon's father than Benjen. I used to be a big supporter of Mance being Jon's father and dallied with Rhaegar being Mance because the clues fit so nicely, but for the current time being I am leaning more-so on Aerys. :cool4:

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

If anyone other then Rhaegar is Jons father i'd be disappointed, for me the clues in the book point to exactly that. I feel like the other options are more of a result of a long wait for a book than hidden hints at Arthur or Mance/rhaegar hybrid. IIRC the writers of the HBO show were asked who his parents are and they answered correctly and i just highly doubt they came up with Arthur Dayne or Mance Rayder. This obviously isnt evidence for one or another because we have no clue what they said but for me its logical that they'd come up with Rhaegar and lyanna =Jon snow. I doubt they had time to go over the books like some people here have and thats the first conclusion people come up with when reading the books so im guessing they came to the same conclusion. Just an educated guess on my part, obviously we could find out Jaimie is is father for all i know.

[wolfmaid7]

You'll have to help me remember any mention that the KG's were held to a higher standard than any king or lord of a castle, because I cannot recall any passage to support that.

As for Benjen being Jon's father, I think there's more evidence that Mance is Jon's father than Benjen. I used to be a big supporter of Mance being Jon's father and dallied with Rhaegar being Mance because the clues fit so nicely, but for the current time being I am leaning more-so on Aerys. :cool4:

Its not stated but its implied in the story by what they can and can't do. Or get away with.

How is that relevant.Plus the KGS have an oath and code of conduct .You can't recall Kings and Princes whoring,having bastards willy nilly and it's not much of a disappointment because they are Kings/Princes. It's kind of expected that monarch's would behave like bafoons.Just look at Robert,Aerys,hell Joff.

I haven't heard all the evidence about Benjen,so i don't know.

Aerys is actually my first choice then Dayne who is a very very close second. So if its one of them i'm cool with it.

[wolfmaid7]

For those of you that think Dayne is an option to be Jon's father can you summarize your reasons for thinking so? Thanks in advance and if u could use small words and concise sentences for simpletons like me that'd be awesome.

I don't know about any others who would outline why.But after series 5 is over there is a plan to actually have a series of Essays outlining the ones who we think could fit the bill including Rhaegar.If you can hold out till then for those series. Everyone who believes will have a different take on how they see or present the evidence.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

I don't know about any others who would outline why.But after series 5 is over there is a plan to actually have a series of Essays outlining the ones who we think could fit the bill including Rhaegar.If you can hold out till then for those series. Everyone who believes will have a different take on how they see or present the evidence.

Im on this forum so I OBVIOUSLY have time on my hands so yes i can wait for the essays :)

[Melifeather]

If anyone other then Rhaegar is Jons father i'd be disappointed, for me the clues in the book point to exactly that. I feel like the other options are more of a result of a long wait for a book than hidden hints at Arthur or Mance/rhaegar hybrid. IIRC the writers of the HBO show were asked who his parents are and they answered correctly and i just highly doubt they came up with Arthur Dayne or Mance Rayder. This obviously isnt evidence for one or another because we have no clue what they said but for me its logical that they'd come up with Rhaegar and lyanna =Jon snow. I doubt they had time to go over the books like some people here have and thats the first conclusion people come up with when reading the books so im guessing they came to the same conclusion. Just an educated guess on my part, obviously we could find out Jaimie is is father for all i know.

If I remember correctly GRRM asked D&D who they thought Jon's mother was, not parents.

I don't know about any others who would outline why.But after series 5 is over there is a plan to actually have a series of Essays outlining the ones who we think could fit the bill including Rhaegar.If you can hold out till then for those series. Everyone who believes will have a different take on how they see or present the evidence.

Do you mean after season 5 of the show?

[wolfmaid7]

If I remember correctly GRRM asked D&D who they thought Jon's mother was, not parents.

Do you mean after season 5 of the show?

Yeah after this season.

[wolfmaid7]

This is the actual interview given by D&D for posterity (relevant parts).

http://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2014/03/game-of-thrones-benioff-weiss-interview

Did you have to show your mastery of Westeros trivia?

Dan Weiss: Oh!

David Benioff: Yeah. I mean, he—he asked us at the very end of this lunch—George worked here in television, he worked on two different shows, so he had a healthy skepticism of Hollywood and of us, you know, before he met us, and probably even after he met us. And at the very end of that lunch, he said, “Who’s Jon Snow’s real mother?”And it was very much like a test question. It wasn’t like, “Ha-ha!” He asked it and stared at us.

Is it the woman Ned Stark meets when he’s off on the campaign? Did you know the answer?

David Benioff: It hasn’t been revealed yet, in either the TV series or in the books.

Dan Weiss: Basically, it was like: “Guess. I want your guess to be intelligent and I want it to be based in the facts of the world.” Maybe if we had gotten it wrong but had a really good reason for thinking what we thought, it would have been O.K. But it needed to be a good guess.

Did you make a guess?

David Benioff: Yeah, we made a guess. After a nerve-racking silence.

Did you both have the same guess?

Dan Weiss: We had already discussed it. We’d had like a two-hour conversation about it.

So you had nerded out on it already.

Dan Weiss: Luckily, it was pretty well-trammeled territory for us, at that point.

Was the answer satisfactory to him?

David Benioff: It was satisfactory. He gave us his blessing to take it to HBO and pitch it there and see what happened.

I don't know how much GRRM has told them with regards to this if anything since then.It seems at that time he just asked them and the answer they gave was good enough to get his blessings.So may be they could be wrong in totality.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

tHANKS wolfmaid !!! so that part of my argument was wrong ... i still think its rhaegar as a dad but i'll have to reevaluate it for sure!

[wolfmaid7]

tHANKS wolfmaid !!! so that part of my argument was wrong ... i still think its rhaegar as a dad but i'll have to reevaluate it for sure!

No probs.Rhaegar is a possibility for sure,the most obvious choice.It will be nice to see what others will come up with.

[Morrigan's Raven]

So, if the Lannisters are the danger, and Arthur is the father:

Ned, taking Jon preserves Art's honor. But the man is dead, so there must be more. How about, Ned, claiming Jon as his own, keeps Robert from learning that a Dayne "soiled" his bride. The Daynes are duly greatful & name their heir "ned".

Robert would need to avenge himself, pulling the Lannisters into the war with Dorne that Tywin has been desperately avoiding. Tywin might kill Jon as a way to end the war.

[wolfmaid7]

So, if the Lannisters are the danger, and Arthur is the father:

Ned, taking Jon preserves Art's honor. But the man is dead, so there must be more. How about, Ned, claiming Jon as his own, keeps Robert from learning that a Dayne "soiled" his bride. The Daynes are duly greatful & name their heir "ned".

Robert would need to avenge himself, pulling the Lannisters into the war with Dorne that Tywin has been desperately avoiding. Tywin might kill Jon as a way to end the war.

True he is dead,but we know that the deeds of the KGS remain long after they are gone.Ned as lord's go had his honor spoken of continuosly.Yet, he took a little flack for Jon here and there.Still though a Lord having a bastard especially if its in a time of war and they didn't know if they were coming back,is not a shocking thing.

But look at the flack the KGS get for dropping the ball and failing their oaths.If we re-read The soiled Knigt in AFFC and look at the inner turmoil of Arys its gut wrenching,realistic and humanizes them.

[Matthew.]

Renly was never a bastard and Daemon was a legitimized. Daemon was recognized by his father King Aegon IV when he was 12 and was presented with a family sword, and later legitimized when King Aegon IV was on his death bed. Are there any bastards that were able to rally support?

I don't think being a bastard in this case would matter nearly as much as you suggest. If Jon had the right marriage, and a sufficiently large army, his supporters can just flat out lie and say Rhaegar intended him to be legitimized--or not bother, because if he has an army, it simply doesn't matter.

And, in the grand scheme of things, it's not really about whether he would actually become a contender for the throne, just the fact that the potential (however slight) exists might be viewed as problematic by someone like Tywin, and perhaps other people playing the game of thrones. Bastard or not, being the last known Targaryen in Westeros is the sort of thing that would matter.

[Black Crow]

If anyone other then Rhaegar is Jons father i'd be disappointed, for me the clues in the book point to exactly that. I feel like the other options are more of a result of a long wait for a book than hidden hints at Arthur or Mance/rhaegar hybrid. IIRC the writers of the HBO show were asked who his parents are and they answered correctly and i just highly doubt they came up with Arthur Dayne or Mance Rayder. This obviously isnt evidence for one or another because we have no clue what they said but for me its logical that they'd come up with Rhaegar and lyanna =Jon snow. I doubt they had time to go over the books like some people here have and thats the first conclusion people come up with when reading the books so im guessing they came to the same conclusion. Just an educated guess on my part, obviously we could find out Jaimie is is father for all i know.

As Wolfmaid has already answered, the question asked was about Jon's mother rather than his parents. Beyond that the "clues" pointing to Rhaegar essentially amount to Rhaegar abducted Lyanna therefore Rhaegar is Jon's father. Everything else amounts to subjective interpretation and wishful thinking.

Its worth remembering these posts by Werthead:

http://asoiaf.wester...n-thread/page-3

Posted 05 May 2006 - 07:01 PM

So during the BwB London meet-up earlier this evening, GRRM's Significant Other, Parris, turned up (possibly one of the nicest people you will ever meet). During discussions about the series, she reiterated a point that she has made before, that R+L=J is an extremely obvious thing to do in the series, and George doesn't do obvious, leaving the likelihood of that theory being correct much reduced.

and;

Posted 07 May 2006 - 06:20 AM

Riiiiight. I see that that that point sparked some interesting discussion, so here's what I remember (whilst recalling a large amount of alcohol was consumed in the interim).

Parris doesn't get to see the finished book much before anyone else. She is George's first reader, so sees the finished product before even the editors and makes comments on it, but that is it. That said, they do discuss the storyline and some directions the story is taking ahead of time, but as for reading the written product...not before George has finished it. Apparently the sole exception to this was The Armageddon Rag, where George needed her advice on what songs to put in the book, as she was a bit more familiar with the 1960s rock 'n' roll scene.

According to Parris, she did come up with a few alternative suggestions for Jon's parentage that George wouldn't comment on, but apparently one suggestion did provoke one of George's 'evil smiles' (apparently deployed whenever he has come up with an extremely cunning plot twist). However, absolutely no amount of persuasion or bribery would get her to reveal what that theory was.