Heresy 165

[Rhaegarslance]

The second link included the tantalizing:

What happened to Ser Arthur Dayne's sword Dawn after Ned brought it back to Ashara?

Dawn remains at Starfall, until another Sword of the Morning shall arise.

Which has always led me to believe that there's a hidden Dayne lying about. Darkstar has been seemingly denied the office, and Edric has so far also proven unfit apparently (he is a squire though so they could be waiting until he's knighted). But we've got two eligible Daynes, but no Sword of the Morning for the last 17 years. So something's up.

Yes! Agreed! He feels silly with his glamoured sword. He killed that child full of wonder within himself long, long ago.

Indeed dragonbone. That leaves obsidian conspicuously still in play. Dark ripples, BC. Dancing through the steel like a curtain of dark light at the end of the world...

I agree it is about magic, but clearly, there is another ingredient in the steel besides, well, steel ;) And obsidian is magical. It breaks the magic holding white walkers' bodies together, melts their flesh into mist, melts their milkglass bones into a puddle. It is set aflame by those mystics who seek to enter the dreams of others.

So I think obsidian is the perfect fit. It is magical, and can be seen as both a magical addition to the steel, as well as seen to the naked eye in the form of dark ripples.

The other thing of course is that while Valyrian steel might possibly be older than Valyria, a country with 14 volcanoes certainly seems like it would have a boatload of obsidian lying around and would find a use for all that stuff.

[Voice]

Which has always led me to believe that there's a hidden Dayne lying about. Darkstar has been seemingly denied the office, and Edric has so far also proven unfit apparently (he is a squire though so they could be waiting until he's knighted). But we've got two eligible Daynes, but no Sword of the Morning for the last 17 years. So something's up.

The other thing of course is that while Valyrian steel might possibly be older than Valyria, a country with 14 volcanoes certainly seems like it would have a boatload of obsidian lying around and would find a use for all that stuff.

Completely agree... With both paragraphs :)

To the prior... that is indeed a conspicuous number of years, isn't it? You could even say, "it's been a long night since the last SotM."

To the latter... what better name for the steel forged in the Fourteen Flames region (where firewyrms and dragons spawn), before "Valyria" was founded, than "dragonsteel"?

[Rhaegarslance]

Completely agree... With both paragraphs :)

To the prior... that is indeed a conspicuous number of years, isn't it? You could even say, "it's been a long night since the last SotM."

Yup, the Daynes are definitely waiting for something otherwise they'd have given the title to Edric's father before he died, Darkstar, or Edric. And that's just the Daynes that we know of. So something's up, hence my belief that there's a hidden Dayne in the story that they're waiting to meet.

Which rather ties in with my theory of why Edric is allowed to be wandering around the country. As the head of House Dayne, Edric surely has to be involved in the choosing of the Sword of the Morning, yet he's not at Starfall or High Hermitage where the Daynes live. Why isn't he needed at home for the choosing, unless House Dayne knows that they won't find who they need at home?

To the latter... what better name for the steel forged in the Fourteen Flames region (where firewyrms and dragons spawn), before "Valyria" was founded, than "dragonsteel"?

Well one of things too is that GRRM has said that Valyrian steel is forged using dragon fire.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JUcEwfBnRGI

Which would make Valyrian steel literally dragonsteel, seeing as it took dragons to forge it.

[Black Crow]

Given Moqorro and Benerro's description she could be either or and in between.Her skin could be crackling or it could be tattooed in flames,or maybe another symbol that we haven't seen.But i dearsay what she looks like probably won't make men want to undress that's for sure.

I don't think its tattooed. Might have been once upon a time but Moqorro's tattoos are part of his glamour:

The firelight made his black skin shine like polished onyx, and sometimes Victarion could swear that the flames tattooed on his face were dancing too, twisting and bending, melting into one another, their colours changing with every turn of the priest's head.

[Black Crow]

Which has always led me to believe that there's a hidden Dayne lying about. Darkstar has been seemingly denied the office, and Edric has so far also proven unfit apparently (he is a squire though so they could be waiting until he's knighted). But we've got two eligible Daynes, but no Sword of the Morning for the last 17 years. So something's up.

You can't possibly be thinking of young Mr Snow can you?

:commie: :commie: :commie:

[wolfmaid7]

I don't think its tattooed. Might have been once upon a time but Moqorro's tattoos are part of his glamour:

The firelight made his black skin shine like polished onyx, and sometimes Victarion could swear that the flames tattooed on his face were dancing too, twisting and bending, melting into one another, their colours changing with every turn of the priest's head.

Yeah i forgot that quote.I agree.

[Rhaegarslance]

I don't think its tattooed. Might have been once upon a time but Moqorro's tattoos are part of his glamour:

The firelight made his black skin shine like polished onyx, and sometimes Victarion could swear that the flames tattooed on his face were dancing too, twisting and bending, melting into one another, their colours changing with every turn of the priest's head.

We do know that Mel is employing at least one glamour though seeing as she has a teardrop tattoo that she covers up

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover’s hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past. “Melony,” she heard a woman cry. A man’s voice called, “Lot Seven.” She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in.

You can't possibly be thinking of young Mr Snow can you?

:commie: :commie: :commie:

He's the one who most comes to mind, either as Arthur's son or Ashara's.

[Black Crow]

He's the one who most comes to mind, either as Arthur's son or Ashara's.

Ah well, don't forget you read it here first. There is in fact a well developed theory on Heresy that since Jon's mother is Lyanna Stark his father may in fact be Ser Arthur Dayne who not only had the opportunity but has the family sword Dawn waiting to be drawn from the stone.

As to Ashara, the theory in these here parts is that she carried young Aegon to safety from Dragonstone as part of the switch. What happened next is open to question. One theory is that the child who actually died at King's Landing was hers, masquerading as Aegon, hence the suicide. The more likely is that instead of jumping off a cliff she fled to Essos with Aegon and turned up on a pole boat on the Rhoyne 15 years later.

[Voice]

Ah well, don't forget you read it here first. There is in fact a well developed theory on Heresy that since Jon's mother is Lyanna Stark his father may in fact be Ser Arthur Dayne who not only had the opportunity but has the family sword Dawn waiting to be drawn from the stone.

As to Ashara, the theory in these here parts is that she carried young Aegon to safety from Dragonstone as part of the switch. What happened next is open to question. One theory is that the child who actually died at King's Landing was hers, masquerading as Aegon, hence the suicide. The more likely is that instead of jumping off a cliff she fled to Essos with Aegon and turned up on a pole boat on the Rhoyne 15 years later.

I would say I was ninja'd but it took you ten minutes, and me, several hours, to respond...

I think this, along with "George doesn't do 'obvious'" make a very strong argument against RLJ. The only question then, becomes, why hide Jon (Dayne) at the expense of your honor, your marriage, and the kid's psychological well-being? And, why not tell him? (I guess this is more than one question...)

What if Ned told it true? And what if this exchange was exactly what it appeared to be?

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …"

Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

"Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn."

[Rhaegarslance]

I would say I was ninja'd but it took you ten minutes, and me, several hours, to respond...

I think this, along with "George doesn't do 'obvious'" make a very strong argument against RLJ. The only question then, becomes, why hide Jon (Dayne) at the expense of your honor, your marriage, and the kid's psychological well-being? And, why not tell him? (I guess this is more than one question...)

What if Ned told it true? And what if this exchange was exactly what it appeared to be?

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …"

Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

"Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn."

Well I can't help but notice that this site goes out of its way to promote R+L=J. It's a pinned thread when no other theories get pinned in General, and if you take a look at the Jon Snow wiki, it goes out of its way to say that Jon Snow's parentage isn't known and is this huge mystery.

Which is of course not true. As you point out here, we have Ned telling us that Jon's mother is Wylla, with Robert remembering that that's Jon's mother. And this is a statement that Edric Dayne later confirms by also saying that Wylla is Jon's mother and that he knows this as Wylla works for him at Starfall. Canonically speaking, Jon is the son of Eddard Stark and Wylla. There's no mystery to his parentage at all according to canon. But this site doesn't treat it as such, but instead puts on the Jon Snow pages that we don't know who his mother is and that it's this mystery, and then goes on to promote a theory that argues something that's nowhere in the books and contrary to what the books say.

That doesn't mean that you have to believe that Ned and Wylla are Jon's parents of course. Certainly the various theories make sense of a lot of things in the books that otherwise don't seem to make any sense. But it seems like it's just ignored and that there's this huge mystery in the books. The books don't present a mystery. People just aren't satisfied with the explanation provided by the books. Which is a big difference.

[Voice]

Well I can't help but notice that this site goes out of its way to promote R+L=J. It's a pinned thread when no other theories get pinned in General, and if you take a look at the Jon Snow wiki, it goes out of its way to say that Jon Snow's parentage isn't known and is this huge mystery.

Which is of course not true. As you point out here, we have Ned telling us that Jon's mother is Wylla, with Robert remembering that that's Jon's mother. And this is a statement that Edric Dayne later confirms by also saying that Wylla is Jon's mother and that he knows this as Wylla works for him at Starfall. Canonically speaking, Jon is the son of Eddard Stark and Wylla. There's no mystery to his parentage at all according to canon. But this site doesn't treat it as such, but instead puts on the Jon Snow pages that we don't know who his mother is and that it's this mystery, and then goes on to promote a theory that argues something that's nowhere in the books and contrary to what the books say.

That doesn't mean that you have to believe that Ned and Wylla are Jon's parents of course. Certainly the various theories make sense of a lot of things in the books that otherwise don't seem to make any sense. But it seems like it's just ignored and that there's this huge mystery in the books. The books don't present a mystery. People just aren't satisfied with the explanation provided by the books. Which is a big difference.

markg? That you? Lol

[Black Crow]

markg? That you? Lol

Its taken you this long?

[Voice]

Its taken you this long?

Yup lol :dunce: but at least I figured it out on my own eventually right? The "Rhaegar's lance" thing had me thinking I was talking to a RLJ'er! haha

I thought he had a different 'new name' ...didn't he? This must be the new, new name.

You're a veritable faceless man at this point, mark. Next you'll be selling oysters, clams and cockles.

[Black Crow]

I would say I was ninja'd but it took you ten minutes, and me, several hours, to respond...

I think this, along with "George doesn't do 'obvious'" make a very strong argument against RLJ. The only question then, becomes, why hide Jon (Dayne) at the expense of your honor, your marriage, and the kid's psychological well-being? And, why not tell him? (I guess this is more than one question...)

What if Ned told it true? And what if this exchange was exactly what it appeared to be?

"You were never the boy you were," Robert grumbled. "More's the pity. And yet there was that one time … what was her name, that common girl of yours? Becca? No, she was one of mine, gods love her, black hair and these sweet big eyes, you could drown in them. Yours was … Aleena? No. You told me once. Was it Merryl? You know the one I mean, your bastard's mother?"

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …"

Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

"Gods have mercy, you scarcely knew Catelyn."

I don't know that he did. Everyone has a mother and in this case I think that the simplest explanation is that Lord Eddard passed off Jon's wet-nurse as his mother to avoid complicating things.

As to the why; the immediate problem is two-fold in Rhaegar is known to have abducted Lyanna and the ballad-singers say it was for love hence both the popular theory and the assumption that would be made by Robert or anyone else in story learning that Jon was the son of Lyanna. Ser Arthur Dayne is dead and can't claim Jon as his son, while we have the business of that promise which no doubt went beyond protecting Jon but wanted him brought up as a son of Winterfell.

Someone who may be able to confirm Ser Arthur Dayne was Jon's father is Ser Richard Lonmouth, who was one of Rhaegar's companions when Lyanna was abducted. He has since disappeared and conspicuously wasn't at the OK corral when Lord Eddard tooled up for his rencounter with the three musketeers. Presumably he went with Rhaegar to the Trident, but there's a very plausible theory that he is now known as Lem Lemoncloak, and oddly enough the Lonmouth coat of arms includes black panels with multiple skulls - perhaps the same skulls that surround Jon in Mel's dodgy visions.

[Voice]

I don't know that he did. Everyone has a mother and in this case I think that the simplest explanation is that Lord Eddard passed off Jon's wet-nurse as his mother to avoid complicating things.

Strange isn't it? I mean, it's about as reliable a narrator as we could possibly expect on the matter. If ever there should be a nail in the coffin of RLJ, this is it. But, once we go with Lyanna as the mother, all sorts of peculiar paternal possibilities emerge. (the three P's lol)

But then...

… but then somehow he was back at Winterfell again, in the godswood looking down upon his father. Lord Eddard seemed much younger this time. His hair was brown, with no hint of grey in it, his head bowed. "… let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive …"

This seems to rule out Ned. And if Jon is a Dayne, why hide him in such a way as to cause a rift with his lady wife?

As to the why; the immediate problem is two-fold in Rhaegar is known to have abducted Lyanna and the ballad-singers say it was for love hence both the popular theory and the assumption that would be made by Robert or anyone else in story learning that Jon was the son of Lyanna. Ser Arthur Dayne is dead and can't claim Jon as his son, while we have the business of that promise which no doubt went beyond protecting Jon but wanted him brought up as a son of Winterfell.

That seems plausible enough outside of the family, but not with Cat. Unless "the promise" was extremely specific, is seems dubious Lyanna would have required Catelyn to be left out of the loop.

If he was telling the truth to Robert, he was a major dick to Cat. Because that means he brought mistress home, before his wife:

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and

Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

It would explain Ned's response to Robert though, if he was being honest with his old friend...

"Her name was Wylla," Ned replied with cool courtesy, "and I would sooner not speak of her."

"Wylla. Yes." The king grinned. "She must have been a rare wench if she could make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor, even for an hour. You never told me what she looked like …"

Ned's mouth tightened in anger. "Nor will I. Leave it be, Robert, for the love you say you bear me. I dishonored myself and I dishonored Catelyn, in the sight of gods and men."

The mouth tightening in anger is strange. If he's telling the truth, it makes some sense, I guess. But even then, it's really strange.

If he's lying, maybe it's anger at Lyanna for making him promise?

Someone who may be able to confirm Ser Arthur Dayne was Jon's father is Ser Richard Lonmouth, who was one of Rhaegar's companions when Lyanna was abducted. He has since disappeared and conspicuously wasn't at the OK corral when Lord Eddard tooled up for his rencounter with the three musketeers. Presumably he went with Rhaegar to the Trident, but there's a very plausible theory that he is now known as Lem Lemoncloak, and oddly enough the Lonmouth coat of arms includes black panels with multiple skulls - perhaps the same skulls that surround Jon in Mel's dodgy visions.

Sounds like quite a long shot there, friend. I'd still say in that scenario Howland would be a more trustworthy source.

Maybe Samwell will stare into that glass candle flame a bit longer and see the little crannogman making the she wolf howl.... lol

[Black Crow]

Sounds like quite a long shot there, friend. I'd still say in that scenario Howland would be a more trustworthy source.

Sorry... sorry... just trying a bit of textual analysis. Won't happen again. :rofl:

[Black Crow]

As to Catelyn, her genuine and veryevident disapproval and resentment is the strongest armour and "proof" that Lord Eddard is Jon's father.

[Voice]

Sorry... sorry... just trying a bit of textual analysis. Won't happen again. :rofl:

Well good. LOL

That's what happens when you're seeing shadows in the dark.

As to Catelyn, her genuine and veryevident disapproval and resentment is the strongest armour and "proof" that Lord Eddard is Jon's father.

Sure. Just seems a strange price to pay to hide a Dayne.

[Black Crow]

Its about hiding Jon. Given the circumstances of Lyanna's abduction and those bloody ballad singers everybody is going to assume he's Rhaegar's son without Ser Arthur alive and holding his hand up.

[Voice]

Ned is from one of the oldest houses in Westeros. The honor of his house, as well as his own, is known far and wide. He has just led an army to overthrow the dragonlords. He knocked the lion off the Iron Throne. He has just killed the man who abducted his sister (if Arthur). He has just returned Dawn to Starfall. And, in spite of killing the last Sword of the Morning, the Daynes love him. He is a war hero. His foster father is the most powerful man in the Seven Kingdoms. His best friend has just become king and has married the richest family in the land.

Ned's word is gospel. Ned's word is law. And as the Giants, the First Men, the Andals, Robert, Littlefinger, and Tyrion have demonstrated, 'singers' are not the most formidable of foemen.