Heresy 165

[Black Crow]

Ah, but they are, that's the problem. There's nothing so subversive as songs.

[wolfmaid7]

I think given the them Ned's actions covered the honor ofLyanna and Arthur.

Lya was set to marry Robert. Arthur was not just any Kings Guard, but honor on steroids for that order and for house Dayne.

Seriously, how would this have looked what long-lasting legacy for both of them be had this gotten out.

The thing about Prince es and kings there is almost and expectation for them to eff up.Its what they do.

The Kingsguard's is a whole matter their legacy, shame and honor gives young boys wet dreams and good or bad immortalized in that White book.

Ned took on the dishonor in life so Dayne and Lya wouldn't hAve it in death.

[wolfmaid7]

Excuse the typos, im on my phone, but you all get the gist.

[Voice]

Ah, but they are, that's the problem. There's nothing so subversive as songs.

Sure. But if we are going to talk about the power of songs, now, we're no wiser than those who praise the Son(g) of Ice and Fire. ;)

Not only that, but those singers still sing the same songs now, with Ned claiming Jon as his bastard.

Edit: My point being the lie didn't subvert the subversive singers in any way...

I think given the them Ned's actions covered the honor ofLyanna and Arthur.

Lya was set to marry Robert. Arthur was not just any Kings Guard, but honor on steroids for that order and for house Dayne.

Seriously, how would this have looked what long-lasting legacy for both of them be had this gotten out.

The thing about Prince es and kings there is almost and expectation for them to eff up.Its what they do.

The Kingsguard's is a whole matter their legacy, shame and honor gives young boys wet dreams and good or bad immortalized in that White book.

Ned took on the dishonor in life so Dayne and Lya wouldn't hAve it in death.

It will only be worse now, which seems to be GRRM's point.

[Black Crow]

Yes but because Ser Arthur is dead and Lord Eddard claimed Jon as his own they don't sing about Rhaegar and Lyanna's son

[Voice]

Yes but because Ser Arthur is dead and Lord Eddard claimed Jon as his own they don't sing about Rhaegar and Lyanna's son

Nor would they if he were proclaimed to be Arhur and Lyanna's son. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of the Lord Commander (whether he's the 998th or 999th incarnation) being named the Sword of the Morning just as the long night looms again. It makes sense.

But Ned's venom in that conversation with Robert, then, doesn't.

[Rhaegarslance]

Nor would they if he were proclaimed to be Arhur and Lyanna's son. Don't get me wrong, I like the idea of the Lord Commander (whether he's the 998th or 999th incarnation) being named the Sword of the Morning just as the long night looms again. It makes sense.

But Ned's venom in that conversation with Robert, then, doesn't.

Maybe he's just generally angry that he slipped up. He's the controlled Stark and prides himself on that (in the black cells he thinks to himself that even now he won't let himself lose his cool despite everything). I'd imagine having slipped up like knocking boots with a girl who wasn't his wife, and also wasn't Ashara but a servant of hers, would be an angry memory.

Which we actually see Ned have the same reaction to when Littlefinger brings him to the brothel and says Cat is inside. They're like the two times we ever see Ned angry. Both situations have to do with dishonoring Cat.

So I don't really see the anger as having been out of place. He and Robert have clearly had this conversation before, so Robert asking him again and with the context it brings is enough to warrant anger without there being anything else behind it.

[Voice]

Maybe he's just generally angry that he slipped up. He's the controlled Stark and prides himself on that (in the black cells he thinks to himself that even now he won't let himself lose his cool despite everything). I'd imagine having slipped up like knocking boots with a girl who wasn't his wife, and also wasn't Ashara but a servant of hers, would be an angry memory.

Which we actually see Ned have the same reaction to when Littlefinger brings him to the brothel and says Cat is inside. They're like the two times we ever see Ned angry. Both situations have to do with dishonoring Cat.

So I don't really see the anger as having been out of place. He and Robert have clearly had this conversation before, so Robert asking him again and with the context it brings is enough to warrant anger without there being anything else behind it.

That's what I'm saying. It makes sense if Jon= Ned+Wylla. But doesn't if Jon is a Dayne.

[wolfmaid7]

That's what I'm saying. It makes sense if Jon= Ned+Wylla. But doesn't if Jon is a Dayne.

It kind of does with Dayne as well.Think about it ,Cat wasn't upset that Ned banged a woman on campaign or even that Ned's seed quickened.She was well aware that s**t happened like that with men at war.He dishonored her by and she got pissed off that Ned brought Jon home.That was the insult.If say Lyanna asked Ned to raise Jon and claim him.she was essentially asking him to shove Jon down Cat's throat.Ned would have known the moment he said yes,that's what he was doing.

Lya as the surviving parent extracted a deathbed promise which saw Jon being raised at WF.

[Rhaegarslance]

That's what I'm saying. It makes sense if Jon= Ned+Wylla. But doesn't if Jon is a Dayne.

Well part of the problem is that there's this assumption that Lyanna being in a relationship automatically has to create a child. We have no idea if she was fertile or not, but we know that Ned damn sure was. So Ned having a kid off of a one night stand doesn't seem out of place. Whereas without knowing if Lyanna was even capable of having children (and the line about her being a "child-woman" has always seemed odd), we don't know if anything would ever happen should she be having sex.

Lyanna could have been in a relationship with Rhaegar/Arthur/Howland/whoever and it might not have led anywhere.

[Voice]

It kind of does with Dayne as well.Think about it ,Cat wasn't upset that Ned banged a woman on campaign or even that Ned's seed quickened.She was well aware that s**t happened like that with men at war.He dishonored her by and she got pissed off that Ned brought Jon home.That was the insult.If say Lyanna asked Ned to raise Jon and claim him.she was essentially asking him to shove Jon down Cat's throat.Ned would have known the moment he said yes,that's what he was doing.

Lya as the surviving parent extracted a deathbed promise which saw Jon being raised at WF.

Well not really. I mean, I know my wife would be way cooler with the idea of promising my dying sister that I'd raise my nephew, than she would the idea of me cheating on her and raising the 'get' despite the child's mother being alive. It doesn't make sense for part of Lyanna's dying wish to be forcing Jon down Cat's throat. That is something Ned did on his own... either with his lie, or with the truth if Jon is indeed his son.

[Voice]

Well part of the problem is that there's this assumption that Lyanna being in a relationship automatically has to create a child. We have no idea if she was fertile or not, but we know that Ned damn sure was. So Ned having a kid off of a one night stand doesn't seem out of place. Whereas without knowing if Lyanna was even capable of having children (and the line about her being a "child-woman" has always seemed odd), we don't know if anything would ever happen should she be having sex.

Lyanna could have been in a relationship with Rhaegar/Arthur/Howland/whoever and it might not have led anywhere.

Agreed. You're speaking canon. I speak canon fluently as well. Lol

[wolfmaid7]

Well not really. I mean, I know my wife would be way cooler with the idea of promising my dying sister that I'd raise my nephew, than she would the idea of me cheating on her and raising the 'get' despite the child's mother being alive. It doesn't make sense for part of Lyanna's dying wish to be forcing Jon down Cat's throat. That is something Ned did on his own... either with his lie, or with the truth if Jon is indeed his son.

That would be true yes,if the secret was Ned's to share.I'm going off my intiall thought in the previos post which was about covering Lya and maybe Arthur's.

[Voice]

That would be true yes,if the secret was Ned's to share.I'm going off my intiall thought in the previos post which was about covering Lya and maybe Arthur's.

If not Ned's, who's is it.

Whatever the promise to Lyanna was, he made multiple choices above and beyond it.

1. Was to raise Lyanna's bastard, or his own.

2. Was to let his lady wife believe he chose to raise his bastard, instead of the child's mother.

3. Was to bring the child's mother (in Robert's eyes) to Winterfell before his lady wife, or, to bring Jon and his wetnurse to Winterfell (in Cat's eyes) before his lady wife.

4. Was to ensure that Cat had every reason to resent Jon, and Ned, for Jon's presence, in spite of his prayers otherwise.

5. Was to never tell Jon who his mother had been, in spite of Jon's emotional abuse from Cat.

[wolfmaid7]

If not Ned's, who's is it.

Whatever the promise to Lyanna was, he made multiple choices above and beyond it.

1. Was to raise Lyanna's bastard, or his own,OR to raise Lyanna's Arthur's/Howland's,Rhaegar's,Aery's bastard as his own.(My addition)

2. Was to let his lady wife believe he chose to raise his bastard, instead of the child's mother.

3. Was to bring the child's mother (in Robert's eyes) to Winterfell before his lady wife, or, to bring Jon and his wetnurse to Winterfell (in Cat's eyes) before his lady wife.

4. Was to ensure that Cat had every reason to resent Jon, and Ned, for Jon's presence, in spite of his prayers otherwise.

5. Was to never tell Jon who his mother had been, in spite of Jon's emotional abuse from Cat.

If you believe the proverb a dead man tells no tale.Whose promise it was to tell is dead,the only thing left to Ned was choices.And i agree with you that no matter Ned made choices above and beyond promises we have imagined thus far.In addition we may be wrong in assuming the promises had anything at all to do with Jon.That may have all been on Ned as well.So anything after with respect to Cat's treatment of Jon,Jon's feelings about his place,Ned's treatment of Jon it was all fruit of the poison tree.

[Voice]

If you believe the proverb a dead man tells no tale.

Not the most accurate proverb when dealing with this particular series ;)

Whose promise it was to tell is dead,the only thing left to Ned was choices.And i agree with you that no matter Ned made choices above and beyond promises we have imagined thus far.In addition we may be wrong in assuming the promises had anything at all to do with Jon.That may have all been on Ned as well.So anything after with respect to Cat's treatment of Jon,Jon's feelings about his place,Ned's treatment of Jon it was all fruit of the poison tree.

Big time. And Ned poisoned the tree, not Lyanna.

What I'm saying is, that, was a very peculiar choice.

[Black Crow]

Ultimately it still comes back to the simple fact that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and Lyanna, we believe, had a son who is Jon Snow. The obvious inference is that Rhaegar was the father; hence the R+L=J thread [and the ballad singers].

The only people who can effectively refute this assumption are Rhaegar, and Ser Arthur Dayne who some of us very strongly suspect is Jon's real father. Both of them are dead, along with Lyanna, so no-one is going to believe that Ser Arthur, not Rhaegar, is Jon's father. Remember that business of Stannis proclaiming Joffrey to be an incestuous bastard and the Lannister's responding with scurrilous stories about Patchface - faced with a choice people will choose to believe the juiciest, most scandalous of tales, whether true or not and in this case they would want to believe that Jon is Rhaegar's bastard if the Lyanna connection is made.

The only way in which Lord Eddard can protect his sister's son both from Trouserless Bob and from Targaryen banners being raised in his name is by claiming the boy as his own and its precisely because Lord Eddard is so obsessed with his honour, precisely because such a man confesses to sullying something so precious to him, that his claim is so utterly convincing.

And again, so far as Lady Catelyn is concerned, its precisely because she feels that supposed betrayal by Lord Eddard and hates Jon that no-one ever suspects that he is not Lord Eddard's son, but Lyanna's.

[Rhaegarslance]

The other thing too is the assumption that Lyanna specifically asked Ned to look after Jon, should Jon have been her kid and she wanted to ensure that the child was looked after. Ned and Lyanna didn't seem to have been that close, and while Ned was the one who was there when she was dying, it seems far more likely to me that she would have wanted Benjen to look after her kid.

Ned left Lyanna's life when she was 4 years old. He then spent the next 10 years only seeing her intermittently while he lived in the Vale living a carefree life with Robert and his friends. Benjen on the other hand lived in Winterfell with her, we know that they were close judging by Bran's vision of them and Meera's Harrenhal story, and Benjen ultimately had responsibilities in his life (like being Lord Stark while Rickard went to Brandon's wedding). Ned on the other hand didn't even bother to attend his brother's wedding, had never had responsibilities in his life, and wasn't close to Lyanna, so why would Lyanna think that Ned would take care of her child? Pre-Rebellion/AGOT Ned was a very different character than what we are used to. He wasn't close to his family. It seems unlikely to me that Lyanna would turn to Ned.

The other thing to consider is that with Rickard and Brandon dead, Ned was the head of House Stark. Lyanna would have to know (if she was aware that Ned was Lord Stark now) that asking him to take her child and raise him as hers would cause problems. Ned is the one who the family continues through now so him having a bastard would be a much bigger problem than if Benjen had a bastard. Ned was the best friend of the king, a simple request and Jon is legitimate and Ned's heir (Ned and Lyanna both wouldn't know that Cat was pregnant/had given birth already at this time). So Lyanna isn't just asking Ned to raise Jon, she is potentially asking him make Jon the heir to House Stark, or at the very least a very high contender for it seeing as there was just Ned and Benjen at the moment as far as they knew. So it seems to me that if Lyanna wasn't a complete dick, she wouldn't put that pressure on Ned that it might have to be her child who the family continues through. Let Benjen's family worry about their succession, they're not the lords of anything. We see that Catelyn certainly feels that Jon and his family could make a move to be the Stark line instead of hers so I don't see why Lyanna wouldn't think of that too. This isn't a problem if it's Benjen's bastard.

So in my mind, Benjen would be the one who Lyanna would turn to if she needed something, not her distant older brother, as it was Benjen who was the one who was always in her life, while Ned was the one who left her. Benjen seems to be the better fit as the step-in-father than Ned for Lyanna.

However, should this be the case, I don't think Benjen agreed to it, hence why he went to the Wall so that he wouldn't have too (not because he knows too much as RLJ claims - he does, he just doesn't want the family/responsibilities). Under this theory, it would make light of the fact that Ned was so angry about Jon as a baby (because he got stuck with him, not because of people wondering about his mother), and why Benjen gets mad when he sees that Jon is being a dick at Winterfell and that it's a pity that Benjen didn't raise him (as he should have but decided not to and this is a consequence of that choice), and why Benjen ultimately won't interact with him at Castle Black (because he never wanted to be stuck with him and now is 15 years later).

Ultimately I'm still inclined to believe that Jon is just what he's presented as, but if not and he's Lyanna's son, I don't think that Lyanna turned to Ned. Ned was just supposed to be the deliverer.

[Voice]

Ultimately it still comes back to the simple fact that Rhaegar abducted Lyanna and Lyanna, we believe, had a son who is Jon Snow. The obvious inference is that Rhaegar was the father; hence the R+L=J thread [and the ballad singers].

The only people who can effectively refute this assumption are Rhaegar, and Ser Arthur Dayne who some of us very strongly suspect is Jon's real father. Both of them are dead, along with Lyanna, so no-one is going to believe that Ser Arthur, not Rhaegar, is Jon's father. Remember that business of Stannis proclaiming Joffrey to be an incestuous bastard and the Lannister's responding with scurrilous stories about Patchface - faced with a choice people will choose to believe the juiciest, most scandalous of tales, whether true or not and in this case they would want to believe that Jon is Rhaegar's bastard if the Lyanna connection is made.

The only way in which Lord Eddard can protect his sister's son both from Trouserless Bob and from Targaryen banners being raised in his name is by claiming the boy as his own and its precisely because Lord Eddard is so obsessed with his honour, precisely because such a man confesses to sullying something so precious to him, that his claim is so utterly convincing.

And again, so far as Lady Catelyn is concerned, its precisely because she feels that supposed betrayal by Lord Eddard and hates Jon that no-one ever suspects that he is not Lord Eddard's son, but Lyanna's.

Idk BC. This sounds eerily similar to the reasons the faithful espouse. Swapping the name Rhaegar for Arthur doesn't suddenly make it sound more credible.

If Ned was protecting Jon from Robert, it makes more sense for him to actually be Rhaegar's son than Arthur Dayne's. Clearly, House Dayne would have spoken up and verified some of Ned's story. They love Ned, for some reason.

And as I pointed out, Ned isn't exactly a powerless little imp after the False Spring. He's been kicking ass and taking names. His foster father rules the realm, his best friend is king. Ned's word would loom eternal as the Wall itself.

[Voice]

Ultimately I'm still inclined to believe that Jon is just what he's presented as, but if not and he's Lyanna's son, I don't think that Lyanna turned to Ned. Ned was just supposed to be the deliverer.

I can see Ned as the delivery boy, particularly if Benjen was the father. No wonder he "has more of the North in him" than the other Stark children! lol

Edit: And no wonder Benjen was sent to the Wall. Was Lyanna his "first ranging"?