Heresy 165

[Voice]

I wonder if these telco technologies have ability to switch off all White Walkers if needed. Or dragons... Assuming that WW themselves are not flesh (glassy, to be precise), but instead are magical beings controled by someone remote (idea, which was expressed several times in heresies).

I fully support the remote control hive-mind consciousness idea in regards to legions of wights. The white walkers seem completely autonomous. Their only hindrance to southron ambitions seems to be the warmth of daylight. Thus, the long night looms ominous for Men, and like a "second coming" ;) for the inhuman others.

We haven't seen anything to suggest the telco tech can switch them on and off, but we do know they allow the user to enter subconscious minds. Cotf also have the ability to enter conscious minds, ala skinchanging. Communication and Communion seem to be their greatest priority. I've never been a fan of cotf/gs being behind the Others/ww's. I think their purpose in the story is to remind men of their past demons. They are the archivists, not the architects, imo.

Voice of the First Men, I think the quotes you referenced are pretty strong evidence that the glass candles are indeed obsidian/dragonglass. The exchange between Lazy Leo and Armen is the most definitive.

The fire used to blend obsidian into an iron sword must be very hot to melt molten rock and allow folding into the metal without the obsidian becoming brittle. The end result is a blade that not only is potentially effective at dissolving whitewalkers, but the iron should also serve the purpose of warding the spirit...maybe even killing the spirit. There has been some speculation that when whitewalkers are "killed" are they truly dead or are they only melted and carried off by the wind only to reform back into a shape again?

:cheers: and I completely agree with everything you've said. I like the idea of dragonsteel being Valyrian (aka Obsidian infused) steel, but there are other possibilities. Granted, they aren't as likely, imo, and really wouldn't serve to enhance the existing storylines, imo, but they're out there ;)

The main reason why I like the idea of Valyrian steel being dragonsteel, is it connects ancestral swords, and therefore ancestral lords, to the long night itself. Each great house is meant to have a great lord carrying a great sword. If those swords defended their people against the Others, the smallfolk might even call them Heroes...

If the show is any indication (which it is and isn't), there is a rumor floating around the interwebs that

the Night's King is going to resurrect a slain white walker at Hardhome this season.

So it may be that like we are made of earth (carbon) and to the earth we return, so are the ww's made of ice (frozen water) and from the water they might be able to return.... with a little magic.

This gets back to the idea that ww's are not a natural race that evolves and reproduces biologically. To the contrary, it seems they "take no wives and father no sons." Rather than reproducing the good ole fashioned way, they grow their numbers magically. They raise legions of the undead from the corpses of brothers and sisters, they raise the "neverborn" from babes in arms. And "They" are the ancient Inhuman Others, preparing to ride down on the winds of winter upon their ice spiders... but that's another topic :devil:

Love this, and will add it is not only an embodiment of the elements of fire and ice.Its creation is a result of a destructive force.A Volcano.

One thing though in the quotes you provided Armen was it? He says that Obsidian does not burn, which contradicts that latter statement that is burns without being consumed.Its not a typo but who is Armen again?

Also, why do you think its a wrinkle for the COTF?

Welcome back Feather Crystal :)

:cheers:

A destructive force indeed! Not unlike the tectonic plate activity that accompanied what became known as the Hammer of the Waters...

Yes, Armen. Not a typo. He's a fellow acolyte at the Citadel with Pate and Alleras. And indeed, it burns without being consumed.

We have seen another light that burns without consuming its host: the eyes that burn like blue stars.

I think it's a wrinkle because while the cotf utilize completely natural resources, one of their earthenware tools is literally "frozen fire." So while I still contend they do not wield Ice Magic or Fire Magic, I cannot deny they wield "frozen fire."

1. We know how Marwyn came by his moniker:

When Marwyn had returned to Oldtown, after spending eight years in the east mapping distant lands, searching for lost books, and studying with warlocks and shadowbinders, Vinegar Vaellyn had dubbed him "Marwyn the Mage." The name was soon all over Oldtown, to Vaellyn's vast annoyance. "Leave spells and prayers to priests and septons and bend your wits to learning truths a man can trust in," Archmaester Ryam had once counseled Pate, but Ryam's ring and rod and mask were yellow gold, and his maester's chain had no link of Valyrian steel.

Clearly, this does not prove Marwyn is not a Fire Mage. If anything, it shows that he's likely familiar with such practices.

2. Yes, glass candles are made of obsidian/dragonglass, I don't object to that. What I meant is that when someone speaks of dragonglass he is not using it as a synonym for a glass candle.

They are not the same. Therefore obisdian ≠ glass candle.

So when Quaithe implies that it is easy to 'wake fire from dragonglass' she is not speaking of glass candles.

Sure, they are not, as you point out, "synonymous."

But neither are they mutually exclusive terms. Obviously, Quaithe isn't talking about wax candles or a pile of wood.

While one cannot call all dragonglass "glass candles," one can call all glass candles "dragonglass." Because, that's what they're made from.

It would be like me telling you that "six months ago, ole George could barely wake color from wax, now he's coloring a whole book." Not all wax is shaped like crayons, but all crayons are wax. They are not synonymous, but they are not mutually exclusive either.

Clearly, Quaithe is talking about glass candles.

Obviously something needs to be done to the obsidian/dragonglass to make a glass candle, otherwise dragonglass daggers would also burn or emit light. I think this is the process Quaithe is talking about when she says it's easy to wake fire from dragonglass.

Indeed. Obsidian doesn't spontaneously ignite. But we don't know if it's difficult to do, once you know the secret.

And while we haven't seen a dragonglass dagger emit light, we have seen one slay a harbinger of darkness. And I still wonder if Leaf was only carrying a "normal" torch in Bran II ADWD:

The world moved dizzily around him. White trees, black sky, red flames, everything was whirling, shifting, spinning. He felt himself stumbling. He could hear Hodor screaming, "Hodor hodor hodor hodor. Hodor hodor hodor hodor. Hodor hodor hodor hodor hodor." A cloud of ravens was pouring from the cave, and he saw a little girl with a torch in hand, darting this way and that. For a moment Bran thought it was his sister Arya … madly, for he knew his little sister was a thousand leagues away, or dead. And yet there she was, whirling, a scrawny thing, ragged, wild, her hair atangle. Tears filled Hodor's eyes and froze there.

...

"Hid you. I pulled you out." Meera nodded at the girl. "It was her who saved us, though. The torch … fire kills them."

"Fire burns them. Fire is always hungry." (Leaf)

...

From time to time she stopped and waved her torch at them impatiently. This way, it seemed to say, this way, this way, faster.

...

"No, boy," the child said. "Behind you." She lifted her torch higher, and the light seemed to shift and change. One moment the flames burned orange and yellow, filling the cavern with a ruddy glow; then all the colors faded, leaving only black and white. Behind them Meera gasped. Hodor turned.

...

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight.

[Blade of Sunlight]

I assumed that she was,not in general.It still doesn't negate what i'm saying though.There was always magic in Qarth indicated by the Walocks there.Indicated by the fact that when Dany had destroyed the HOTU the Glass Candles began to burn.Go back to what i said a few posts a back i said imo it may have something to do with the percentage of sorcery practiced.

I don't see the source you have as i can't view the link,but as i corrected myself yesterday to be more specific its pass the borders of Yi Ti.

http://www.fantasticmaps.com/2013/03/the-east/

If it didn't grow directly in Yi Ti it still would make no difference though because Asshai/Shadowlands have had it because magic was always present which is the point of all this.You if i am correct are saying magic disappeared and it returning.I am saying it never disappeared that is clearly not the case .If it did we would not have Skinchangers,the 3ec and Bloodraven wouldn't have been able to do what they've been doing all this time.The woods witch wouldn't have the power to tell Cersie her fate and the GHH would be out of business and who knows what would have been happening with places like the Wall and SE.

And i would make a good guess in saying Lyanna and Brandon were showing some abilities.Hence reffering to them as Centaurs.But my guess they didn't have a Jojen and Meera to guide them.Jojen also always had his dreams.

The above fundamentally is the point we are arguing no? If magic was gone from the world of if wasn't.The fact isn't built on sand we have clear indication that in other parts of the World including Qarth that it was always present.

It all again comes down to persepctive i.e. If Jon( magic blood) wasn't with the Halfhand he wouldn't have made the statement about the trees haing eyes again or they are awakening.They never went to sleep.

The only difference is that they are stirring and that's the question why now? My take and i hold to that is they taking The Comet as a sign to begin to move.

Not just the ones here,but the ones in the East and they are gravitating to other magicals hence all the weird stuff happening.With the focus that all these factions are going to meet in the Snow.

Though I agree with you that magic was always present, it is clear that magic is currently on the rise, and not just because of powers stirring, more I would argue that some powers appear to only now begin to stir because previously magic wasn't strong enough for them to affect others as they used to/are doing now.

And I doubt all factions will meet in the snow, some will be present but most will not, and certainly a lot of factions are not moving or gravitating towards the snow in any way.

[wolfmaid7]

Though I agree with you that magic was always present, it is clear that magic is currently on the rise, and not just because of powers stirring, more I would argue that some powers appear to only now begin to stir because previously magic wasn't strong enough for them to affect others as they used to/are doing now.

And I doubt all factions will meet in the snow, some will be present but most will not, and certainly a lot of factions are not moving or gravitating towards the snow in any way.

Well according to the synopsis and if GRRM's plan remains the same all roads are leading to the Wall.

The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter.

The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

I don't think i've argued against this.I've said it is waxing, i only disagree with the red bolded latter because from experiance of magical lore( being a natural Witch) it doesn't work like that,and it doesn't seem to be the case here either.That is just observation.There's a reason why the Red Priest chant,why Mel, her followers sing and chant.There is a reason why the COTF sing and chant .Why the Children of the Rhoyne would sing and chant because that raises energy and energy attracts.That's pretty much what's happening.

E.g go back to the WB preceding the Breaking of the Arm of Dorne.The COTF coming together singing chanting and possibly doing some blood sacrifice was followed by something remarkably telling "AND the gods stirred"

This is what's happening the COTF are singing when the Crows hear it they peck at Bran-He doesn't know what the songs are they just sound pretty to him-

Mel and her crew are chanting and singing every night at the Wall saying their "prayers".Moroqorro is doing the same thing.Every faction are raising energy through their "songs" and that is drawing those that are "sensitive" to one place.

Hell you think Arya isn't being summoned home to through her dreams...Or the fact that the Wizards inside the HOTU were singing and chanting their songs and Dany destroyed it.Then boom Glass Candles start lighting.

All the hens are coming home to roost.

[Black Crow]

Nah. Obsidian is dragonglass, and dragonglass is obsidian. They are one and the same BC. And this self-same material is what glass candles are made from.

You misunderstand me. The point I'm making is about the magic of Fire and Ice and how the implements of that magic appear to be black and white respectively and that if black Valyrian steel is indeed Dragonsteel and associated with Fire as it appears to be then the milk-white Dawn is an implement of Ice.

[Blade of Sunlight]

Well according to the synopsis and if GRRM's plan remains the same all roads are leading to the Wall.I don't thik i've argued against this.I've said it is waxing, i only disagree the red bolded latter because from experiance of magical lore( being a natural Witch) it doesn't work like that,and it doesn't seem to be the case here either.There's a reason why the Red Priest chant,why Mel, her followers sing and chant.There is a reason why the COTF sing and chant .Why the Children of the Rhoyne would sing and chant because that raises energy and energy attracts.That's pretty much what's happening.

E.g go back to the WB preceding the Breaking of the Arm of Dorne.The COTF coming together singing chanting and possibly doing some blood sacrifice was followed by something remarkably telling "AND the gods stirred"

This is what's happening the COTF are singing when the Crows hear it they peck at Bran-He doesn't know what the songs are they just sound pretty to him-

Mel and her crew are chanting and singing every night at the Wall saying their "prayers".Moroqorro is doing the same thing.Every faction are raising energy through their "songs" and that is drawing those that are "sensitive" to one place.

Hell you think Arya isn't being summoned home to through her dreams...All the hens are coming home to roost.

I agree many characters will probably converge on the wall, but I don't believe most factions are actively going there.

I also agree that chanting increases magic but I doubt specific factions chanting is the reason for the overall increase in magic, I doubt the warlocks/red lot would let their power dwindle if all they had to do is chant...

[Black Crow]

Hi y'all, it's my first time reading a Heresy topic (what does heresy mean?).

And I just wanted to say... wow. Just wow. It was really cool to read GRRM's original plan for the story. So weird and cool. Some things have turned out the same but a lot of things are really different (Jon Snow and Arya and Tyrion, wot?).

Couple days ago someone argued that the three heads of the dragon are Jon (ice and fire), Dany (fire) and Bran (ice). After reading this, I am inclined to believe this theory.

Welcome to Heresy, I hope your stay is long and enjoyable.

As to what it means, its simply a contraction of the original thread title way back from 2011, which was The Wall, The Watch and Heresy. The heresy as then proposed was that the Starks have a dark past linked to Winter and that the then popular assumption that this is all going to be about Jon Snow being recognised as Azor Ahai and riding one of Dany's Amazing Dragons to victory over the Others is way off the mark. The real story is far more complex and allegiances including the Stark connection to Winter far more ambiguous. There is an old joke in these here parts that in the end it will not be the dragons who save Westeros from the Others but rather the Others who will save Westeros from the dragons; the point being that both are deadly threats, not saviours and both must be defeated.

Otherwise, as the OP says we range pretty widely in our discussions and while there's rarely complete agreement, the main reason we have lasted so long are the simple house rules below - that and what we pride ourselves is a pretty deep body of knowledge, especially on the Wall and everything that goes with it.

This is not a single issue thread. :commie: :commie: :commie:

[Voice]

You misunderstand me. The point I'm making is about the magic of Fire and Ice and how the implements of that magic appear to be black and white respectively and that if black Valyrian steel is indeed Dragonsteel and associated with Fire as it appears to be then the milk-white Dawn is an implement of Ice.

Indeed I did misunderstand you Ser, my mistake. And we are very much agreed on all these points. To the latter, Dawn is likely Ice itself, and it harkens back to the original purpose of your little thread outlined below, particularly the bolded:

Welcome to Heresy, I hope your stay is long and enjoyable.

As to what it means, its simply a contraction of the original thread title way back from 2011, which was The Wall, The Watch and Heresy. The heresy as then proposed was that the Starks have a dark past linked to Winter and that the then popular assumption that this is all going to be about Jon Snow being recognised as Azor Ahai and riding one of Dany's Amazing Dragons to victory over the Others is way off the mark. The real story is far more complex and allegiances including the Stark connection to Winter far more ambiguous. There is an old joke in these here parts that in the end it will not be the dragons who save Westeros from the Others but rather the Others who will save Westeros from the dragons; the point being that both are deadly threats, not saviours and both must be defeated.

Otherwise, as the OP says we range pretty widely in our discussions and while there's rarely complete agreement, the main reason we have lasted so long are the simple house rules below - that and what we pride ourselves is a pretty deep body of knowledge, especially on the Wall and everything that goes with it.

This is not a single issue thread. :commie: :commie: :commie:

:cheers: BC

And welcome Liaraeyne :cheers:

[Armstark]

I assumed that she was,not in general.It still doesn't negate what i'm saying though.There was always magic in Qarth indicated by the Walocks there.Indicated by the fact that when Dany had destroyed the HOTU the Glass Candles began to burn.Go back to what i said a few posts a back i said imo it may have something to do with the percentage of sorcery practiced.

I don't see the source you have as i can't view the link,but as i corrected myself yesterday to be more specific its pass the borders of Yi Ti.

http://www.fantasticmaps.com/2013/03/the-east/

If it didn't grow directly in Yi Ti it still would make no difference though because Asshai/Shadowlands have had it because magic was always present which is the point of all this.You if i am correct are saying magic disappeared and it returning.I am saying it never disappeared that is clearly not the case .If it did we would not have Skinchangers,the 3ec and Bloodraven wouldn't have been able to do what they've been doing all this time.The woods witch wouldn't have the power to tell Cersie her fate and the GHH would be out of business and who knows what would have been happening with places like the Wall and SE.

And i would make a good guess in saying Lyanna and Brandon were showing some abilities.Hence reffering to them as Centaurs.But my guess they didn't have a Jojen and Meera to guide them.Jojen also always had his dreams.

The above fundamentally is the point we are arguing no? If magic was gone from the world of if wasn't.The fact isn't built on sand we have clear indication that in other parts of the World including Qarth that it was always present.

It all again comes down to persepctive i.e. If Jon( magic blood) wasn't with the Halfhand he wouldn't have made the statement about the trees haing eyes again or they are awakening.They never went to sleep.

The only difference is that they are stirring and that's the question why now? My take and i hold to that is they taking The Comet as a sign to begin to move.

Not just the ones here,but the ones in the East and they are gravitating to other magicals hence all the weird stuff happening.With the focus that all these factions are going to meet in the Snow.

No, I never argued that magic was ever truly gone. It was just less potent but is returning now to its former potency. You might remember the analogy with the tide I used? At low tide there are still puddles of sea water around but when the tide comes, the water is returning.

What I am arguing though is that some magic was not possible before the comet/dragons. Like lighting a glass candle or growing ghost grass (outside of Asshai).

What I wanted to argue with you is your claim that magic is waxing because magical individuals are stirring and concentrating in Westeros. I believe magic is waxing because of the dragon/comet and Qarth was my counterargument to your claim. But anyway, I don't feel like repeating my whole argument with you here. If you're interested, go back and read the posts again. If not, fine I'll drop it.

Sure, they are not, as you point out, "synonymous."

But neither are they mutually exclusive terms. Obviously, Quaithe isn't talking about wax candles or a pile of wood.

While one cannot call all dragonglass "glass candles," one can call all glass candles "dragonglass." Because, that's what they're made from.

It would be like me telling you that "six months ago, ole George could barely wake color from wax, now he's coloring a whole book." Not all wax is shaped like crayons, but all crayons are wax. They are not synonymous, but they are not mutually exclusive either.

Clearly, Quaithe is talking about glass candles.

Indeed. Obsidian doesn't spontaneously ignite. But we don't know if it's difficult to do, once you know the secret.

And while we haven't seen a dragonglass dagger emit light, we have seen one slay a harbinger of darkness. And I still wonder if Leaf was only carrying a "normal" torch in Bran II ADWD:

The world moved dizzily around him. White trees, black sky, red flames, everything was whirling, shifting, spinning. He felt himself stumbling. He could hear Hodor screaming, "Hodor hodor hodor hodor. Hodor hodor hodor hodor. Hodor hodor hodor hodor hodor." A cloud of ravens was pouring from the cave, and he saw a little girl with a torch in hand, darting this way and that. For a moment Bran thought it was his sister Arya … madly, for he knew his little sister was a thousand leagues away, or dead. And yet there she was, whirling, a scrawny thing, ragged, wild, her hair atangle. Tears filled Hodor's eyes and froze there.

...

"Hid you. I pulled you out." Meera nodded at the girl. "It was her who saved us, though. The torch … fire kills them."

"Fire burns them. Fire is always hungry." (Leaf)

...

From time to time she stopped and waved her torch at them impatiently. This way, it seemed to say, this way, this way, faster.

...

"No, boy," the child said. "Behind you." She lifted her torch higher, and the light seemed to shift and change. One moment the flames burned orange and yellow, filling the cavern with a ruddy glow; then all the colors faded, leaving only black and white. Behind them Meera gasped. Hodor turned.

...

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight.

I don't understand your wax analogy and how it leads to the conclusion that Quaithe must be speaking about glass candles.

Sure, glass candles and dragonglass are not mutually exclusive but why call a glass candle just dragonglass? A glass candle is clearly more than the mere ressource dragonglass that can be dug up from the ground. Quaithe later uses the term glass candles for glass candles and not dragonglass.

Also my main argument against your interpretation is that we know that lighting a glass candle "half a year ago" was impossible and so does Quaithe. Xaro tells us so as does Aemon and the acolytes in the prologue. Quaithe implies it:

"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

[Voice]

Hell you think Arya isn't being summoned home to through her dreams...Or the fact that the Wizards inside the HOTU were singing and chanting their songs and Dany destroyed it.Then boom Glass Candles start lighting.

All the hens are coming home to roost.

Well said. But let me make a few alterations:

Hell Seven Hells you think Arya isn't being summoned home to through her Wolf (dreams)...Or the fact that the Wizards drug addicts inside the HOTU were singing and chanting their songs and Dany destroyed it burnt that shit down to the ground.Then boom goes the dynamite, Glass Candles the Wall start lighting falling.

All the hens ravens are coming home to roost scream.

[Voice]

I don't understand your wax analogy and how it leads to the conclusion that Quaithe must be speaking about glass candles.

Really? I thought it was a clever analogy. That's a bummer. But yeah, Quaithe is talking about glass candles, or even more interesting, the flammability of obsidian artifacts.

What I am saying is you have quite dubiously concluded that she cannot be talking about glass candles, since she used the word dragonglass. If I talk about throwing around the ol' pigskin, that doesn't mean I'm excluding the possibility of tossing a football. I've simply named the material of construction rather than it's shape.

Sure, glass candles and dragonglass are not mutually exclusive but why call a glass candle just dragonglass?

Uhh, it's Quaithe bro. She's cryptic.

A glass candle is clearly more than the mere ressource dragonglass that can be dug up from the ground.

Is it?

Here I go again, and I apologize for being this way, but it just so happens that I have a bunch of chunks of obsidian lying around my house and yard. I should post some pictures, but it's probably easier if you just google it. We live in a formerly volcanic area, and find dragonglass all the time here. It's actually kind of a pain in the ass when you're trying to plant a tree or something LOL.

It usually comes in the form of boulders, but I have a few pieces that are longer and twisted. I dabble in flintknapping, and my kids play a lot of Minecraft, and they like to play with it too and pretend they're making nether portals. Anyway, you may be surprised to learn that large chunks that appear twisted are far more common to dig up than a cache of daggers and arrowheads. And, as it just so happens, those twisted pieces suck for flintknapping. They make better decorations.

So yeah, actually, glass candles are described much more like the mere resource, or raw, dragonglass that you dig up from the ground, than the other examples of it we see in the North.

Quaithe later uses the term glass candles for glass candles and not dragonglass.

Sure, she's Quaithe. And she's not the straightest-talking tool in the shed. She isn't even the only character who uses both terms for the artifacts.

"Call it dragonglass." Archmaester Marwyn glanced at the candle for a moment. "It burns but is not consumed."

Also my main argument against your interpretation is that we know that lighting a glass candle "half a year ago" was impossible and so does Quaithe. Xaro tells us so as does Aemon and the acolytes in the prologue.

As it happens, Aemon, Armen, and the other acolytes in the prologue were wrong. Lazy Leo told it true. Marwyn the Mage does indeed have a glass candle burning in his chambers. And, your main argument with my interpretation, is itself, an interpretation ;) But let's dig into that a bit more...

Here is the passage:

The mage was gesturing, urging the flames higher and higher with broad sweeps of his arms. As the watchers craned their necks upward, the cutpurses squirmed through the press, small blades hidden in their palms. They relieved the prosperous of their coin with one hand while pointing upward with the other.

When the fiery ladder stood forty feet high, the mage leapt forward and began to climb it, scrambling up hand over hand as quick as a monkey. Each rung he touched dissolved behind him, leaving no more than a wisp of silver smoke. When he reached the top, the ladder was gone and so was he.

"A fine trick," announced Jhogo with admiration.

"No trick," a woman said in the Common Tongue.

Dany had not noticed Quaithe in the crowd, yet there she stood, eyes wet and shiny behind the implacable red lacquer mask. "What mean you, my lady?"

"Half a year gone, that man could scarcely wake fire from dragonglass. He had some small skill with powders and wildfire, sufficient to entrance a crowd while his cutpurses did their work. He could walk across hot coals and make burning roses bloom in the air, but he could no more aspire to climb the fiery ladder than a common fisherman could hope to catch a kraken in his nets."

This comes to us in Dany's third chapter of A Clash of Kings. She's chillin out in Qarth with Xaro Xhoan Daxos after crossing the Red Waste with her Dragons. In Dany's second chapter of Clash, she tells Jorah, "Ser Jorah, find the docks and see what manner of ships lay at anchor. It has been half a year since I last heard tidings from the Seven Kingdoms. Perhaps the gods will have blown some good captain here from Westeros with a ship to carry us home."

While you might think it was impossible for the mage "to scarcely wake fire from dragonglass" six months ago, that time frame actually aligns quite well with Dany hatching her dragons.

And again, rather than talking about the mage lighting some obscure artifact that is clearly not a glass candle, she mentions lighting "dragonglass," from which glass candles are made.

Quaithe implies it:

"No. Hear me, Daenerys Targaryen. The glass candles are burning. Soon comes the pale mare, and after her the others. Kraken and dark flame, lion and griffin, the sun's son and the mummer's dragon. Trust none of them. Remember the Undying. Beware the perfumed seneschal."

Quaithe implies what?

She certainly doesn't imply the glass candles have only just ignited.

And she certainly never implies they were impossible to light six months ago....

[Rhaegarslance]

I fully support the remote control hive-mind consciousness idea in regards to legions of wights. The white walkers seem completely autonomous. Their only hindrance to southron ambitions seems to be the warmth of daylight. Thus, the long night looms ominous for Men, and like a "second coming" ;) for the inhuman others.

We haven't seen anything to suggest the telco tech can switch them on and off, but we do know they allow the user to enter subconscious minds. Cotf also have the ability to enter conscious minds, ala skinchanging. Communication and Communion seem to be their greatest priority. I've never been a fan of cotf/gs being behind the Others/ww's. I think their purpose in the story is to remind men of their past demons. They are the archivists, not the architects, imo.

:cheers: and I completely agree with everything you've said. I like the idea of dragonsteel being Valyrian (aka Obsidian infused) steel, but there are other possibilities. Granted, they aren't as likely, imo, and really wouldn't serve to enhance the existing storylines, imo, but they're out there ;)

The main reason why I like the idea of Valyrian steel being dragonsteel, is it connects ancestral swords, and therefore ancestral lords, to the long night itself. Each great house is meant to have a great lord carrying a great sword. If those swords defended their people against the Others, the smallfolk might even call them Heroes...

If the show is any indication (which it is and isn't), there is a rumor floating around the interwebs that

the Night's King is going to resurrect a slain white walker at Hardhome this season.

So it may be that like we are made of earth (carbon) and to the earth we return, so are the ww's made of ice (frozen water) and from the water they might be able to return.... with a little magic.

This gets back to the idea that ww's are not a natural race that evolves and reproduces biologically. To the contrary, it seems they "take no wives and father no sons." Rather than reproducing the good ole fashioned way, they grow their numbers magically. They raise legions of the undead from the corpses of brothers and sisters, they raise the "neverborn" from babes in arms. And "They" are the ancient Inhuman Others, preparing to ride down on the winds of winter upon their ice spiders... but that's another topic :devil:

:cheers:

A destructive force indeed! Not unlike the tectonic plate activity that accompanied what became known as the Hammer of the Waters...

Yes, Armen. Not a typo. He's a fellow acolyte at the Citadel with Pate and Alleras. And indeed, it burns without being consumed.

We have seen another light that burns without consuming its host: the eyes that burn like blue stars.

I think it's a wrinkle because while the cotf utilize completely natural resources, one of their earthenware tools is literally "frozen fire." So while I still contend they do not wield Ice Magic or Fire Magic, I cannot deny they wield "frozen fire."

Clearly, this does not prove Marwyn is not a Fire Mage. If anything, it shows that he's likely familiar with such practices.

Sure, they are not, as you point out, "synonymous."

But neither are they mutually exclusive terms. Obviously, Quaithe isn't talking about wax candles or a pile of wood.

While one cannot call all dragonglass "glass candles," one can call all glass candles "dragonglass." Because, that's what they're made from.

It would be like me telling you that "six months ago, ole George could barely wake color from wax, now he's coloring a whole book." Not all wax is shaped like crayons, but all crayons are wax. They are not synonymous, but they are not mutually exclusive either.

Clearly, Quaithe is talking about glass candles.

Indeed. Obsidian doesn't spontaneously ignite. But we don't know if it's difficult to do, once you know the secret.

And while we haven't seen a dragonglass dagger emit light, we have seen one slay a harbinger of darkness. And I still wonder if Leaf was only carrying a "normal" torch in Bran II ADWD:

The world moved dizzily around him. White trees, black sky, red flames, everything was whirling, shifting, spinning. He felt himself stumbling. He could hear Hodor screaming, "Hodor hodor hodor hodor. Hodor hodor hodor hodor. Hodor hodor hodor hodor hodor." A cloud of ravens was pouring from the cave, and he saw a little girl with a torch in hand, darting this way and that. For a moment Bran thought it was his sister Arya … madly, for he knew his little sister was a thousand leagues away, or dead. And yet there she was, whirling, a scrawny thing, ragged, wild, her hair atangle. Tears filled Hodor's eyes and froze there.

...

"Hid you. I pulled you out." Meera nodded at the girl. "It was her who saved us, though. The torch … fire kills them."

"Fire burns them. Fire is always hungry." (Leaf)

...

From time to time she stopped and waved her torch at them impatiently. This way, it seemed to say, this way, this way, faster.

...

"No, boy," the child said. "Behind you." She lifted her torch higher, and the light seemed to shift and change. One moment the flames burned orange and yellow, filling the cavern with a ruddy glow; then all the colors faded, leaving only black and white. Behind them Meera gasped. Hodor turned.

...

"Are you the three-eyed crow?" Bran heard himself say. A three-eyed crow should have three eyes. He has only one, and that one red. Bran could feel the eye staring at him, shining like a pool of blood in the torchlight.

I almost wonder if the glass candles true purpose isn't to be just used as a communication device, but also as weapons

The candle was unpleasantly bright. There was something queer about it. The flame did not flicker, even when Archmaester Marwyn closed the door so hard that papers blew off a nearby table. The light did something strange to colors too. Whites were bright as fresh-fallen snow, yellow shone like gold, reds turned to flame, but the shadows were so black they looked like holes in the world. Sam found himself staring. The candle itself was three feet tall and slender as a sword, ridged and twisted, glittering black. “Is that... ?”

Armen the Acolyte cleared his throat. “The night before an acolyte says his vows, he must stand a vigil in the vault. No lantern is permitted him, no torch, no lamp, no taper... only a candle of obsidian. He must spend the night in darkness, unless he can light that candle. Some will try. The foolish and the stubborn, those who have made a study of these so-called higher mysteries. Often they cut their fingers, for the ridges on the candles are said to be as sharp as razors. Then, with bloody hands, they must wait upon the dawn, brooding on their failure. Wiser men simply go to sleep, or spend their night in prayer, but every year there are always a few who must try.”

We've seen dragonglass spears, arrows, and daggers, so why not swords? What if glass candles are also dragonglass swords?

Another thing to keep in mind is that we know that dragonglass can kill white walkers, but does nothing to wights. At least, unlit dragonglass does nothing to wights. What if they point of having lit dragonglass isn't just to be able to communicate, but also be able to kill different types of foes? Dragonglass to kill white walkers, and the fire from the lit dragonglass to kill wights. A lit dragonglass weapon would be able to solve the problem of everyone having to carry around torches and dragonglass weapons. You'd only need the lit dragonglass to be able to fight walkers and wights.

Furthermore, Quaithe makes no distinction about being able to wake fire from dragonglass. We're just assuming that only glass candles can be lit, but theoretically, any dragonglass should be able to be lit, not just the glass candles based off what she tells us. So why not being able to light the daggers, spears, and arrowheads? Maybe they don't allow communication like the candles/swords, but there's nothing suggesting that they can't equally be lit. Which would mean that the Night's Watch, back when they used to be armed with obsidian, would literally be a forced armed with the killing tools necessary, instead of today where they've got useless steel. Every brother armed with a glowing obsidian dagger.

And finally, something to keep in mind if the glass candles are also dragonglass swords: there were three black ones, and one green one at the Citadel. If the candles are communication devices and swords, then they'd be also damn useful for a commander no? During a battle he could literally transmit visions of what he wanted done to his underlings, as well as be able to fight side by side with them. And we know that there are four important Night's Watch posts: Lord Commander, First Ranger, First Builder, First Steward. The green one for the commander, and the black ones for the three other posts.

[Voice]

Good stuff here ^

I have more to say but I have to get to class before darkness covers the land...

[Black Crow]

We've seen dragonglass spears, arrows, and daggers, so why not swords? What if glass candles are also dragonglass swords?

Nah, far too friable as demonstrated even by Sam's dagger. Faced with the same problem the Aztecs and their neighbours used clubs with obsidian teeth. And this is why we hear of dragonsteel and why I think that messrs Snow and Tarly are correct in thinking it is the same as Valyrian steel. Something we've noted before is that Valyrian steel didn't necessarily originate in Valyria.

A very close real world parallel would be Damascus blades, which GRRM's descriptions of Valyrian steel match quite closely. Notwithstanding the Damascus associations this steel and the blade-making technique actually originated in Southern India, so we oughtn't assume that because the Long Night pre-dated the rise of the Valyrian Empire that Valyrian steel or rather Dragonsteel was't around.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Damascus_steel

And with that parting gift, I bid you all goodnight.

[wolfmaid7]

I almost wonder if the glass candles true purpose isn't to be just used as a communication device, but also as weapons

We've seen dragonglass spears, arrows, and daggers, so why not swords? What if glass candles are also dragonglass swords?

Another thing to keep in mind is that we know that dragonglass can kill white walkers, but does nothing to wights. At least, unlit dragonglass does nothing to wights. What if they point of having lit dragonglass isn't just to be able to communicate, but also be able to kill different types of foes? Dragonglass to kill white walkers, and the fire from the lit dragonglass to kill wights. A lit dragonglass weapon would be able to solve the problem of everyone having to carry around torches and dragonglass weapons. You'd only need the lit dragonglass to be able to fight walkers and wights.

Furthermore, Quaithe makes no distinction about being able to wake fire from dragonglass. We're just assuming that only glass candles can be lit, but theoretically, any dragonglass should be able to be lit, not just the glass candles based off what she tells us. So why not being able to light the daggers, spears, and arrowheads? Maybe they don't allow communication like the candles/swords, but there's nothing suggesting that they can't equally be lit. Which would mean that the Night's Watch, back when they used to be armed with obsidian, would literally be a forced armed with the killing tools necessary, instead of today where they've got useless steel. Every brother armed with a glowing obsidian dagger.

And finally, something to keep in mind if the glass candles are also dragonglass swords: there were three black ones, and one green one at the Citadel. If the candles are communication devices and swords, then they'd be also damn useful for a commander no? During a battle he could literally transmit visions of what he wanted done to his underlings, as well as be able to fight side by side with them. And we know that there are four important Night's Watch posts: Lord Commander, First Ranger, First Builder, First Steward. The green one for the commander, and the black ones for the three other posts.

This is still a bit of a question.Sam's dagger actually shattered on Small Paul's mail,so we don't no "if" or how effective Obdisian is against Wights.

"You're dead!" Sam screamed as he stabbed. "You're dead, you're dead." He stabbed and screamed, again and again, tearing huge rents in Paul's heavy black cloak. Shards of dragonglass flew everywhere as the blade shattered on the iron mail beneath the wool."

It may be that fire will do,but again you will essentially need "the biggest fire the North has ever seen."

That cold that accompanies the Wight hordes makes it so difficult for them to stay lit.This is why among other things i believe in the first longnight the Wight horde(s) were basically called off the field.

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Can someone tell what the meaning of "is" is. Lol.

[wolfmaid7]

I was just making a mental note of how the wights have been killing. We have seen them tear horses to shreds,i mean they certainly have the power and might to disembowel with their hands and its certainly quicker.

Yet, with a few kills that we have had the honor to see close up Will,Small Paul's attempt on Sam and Othor's attempt on Jon. What the frack is up with the choking? It takes a bit of time firstly,but its a bit of an intimate way to kill someone really intimate.By the way where was the other one (Jafer) in all this? Othor was the only one in the attack.

"Before he could get out his other knife, the steel knife that every brother carried, the wight's black hands locked beneath his chins. Paul's fingers were so cold they seemed to burn. They burrowed deep into the soft flesh of Sam's throat (Sam 46 ASOS)."

"Will closed his eyes to pray .Long elegant hands brushed his cheek,then tightened around his throat AGOT,prologue."

"He glimpsed black hands buried in white fur,swollen dark fingers tightening around his direwolf's throat (AGOT,Jon)."

"When he opened his mouth to scream,the wight jammed it's black corpse fingers into Jon's mouth.......Its hand forced itself farther down his throat choking him(AGOT,Jon)."

[wolfmaid7]

Can someone tell what the meaning of "is" is. Lol.

Probably individuaized way of stressing it more.I do that alot myself,it's my way of saying for instance isssssssss ending going up a notch tone wise .It seems silly to write all the esses.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

I was just making a mental note of how the wights have been killing. We have seen them tear horses to shreds,i mean they certainly have the power and might to disembowel with their hands and its certainly quicker.

Yet, with a few kills that we have had the honor to see close up Will,Small Paul's attempt on Sam and Othor's attempt on Jon. What the frack is up with the choking? It takes a bit of time firstly,but its a bit of an intimate way to kill someone really intimate.By the way where was the other one (Jafer) in all this? Othor was the only one in the attack.

"Before he could get out his other knife, the steel knife that every brother carried, the wight's black hands locked beneath his chins. Paul's fingers were so cold they seemed to burn. They burrowed deep into the soft flesh of Sam's throat (Sam 46 ASOS)."

"Will closed his eyes to pray .Long elegant hands brushed his cheek,then tightened around his throat AGOT,prologue."

"He glimpsed black hands buried in white fur,swollen dark fingers tightening around his direwolf's throat (AGOT,Jon)."

"When he opened his mouth to scream,the wight jammed it's black corpse fingers into Jon's mouth.......Its hand forced itself farther down his throat choking him(AGOT,Jon)."

I"m pretty sure Jafer was taken down by a few guards after taking out a few on his own... and interesting catch that they like to get up close and personal especially since I'm pretty sure one of the wights in that Jon chapter makes a grab for a dagger or something. So if im not "misremebering" they are capable of atleast making a grab for a weapon why not use it ?... But that was in the 1st book and since then we havent seen much more then grabbing and ripping from them so maybe he's gone away from them being intelligent fighters.

[Rhaegarslance]

I was just making a mental note of how the wights have been killing. We have seen them tear horses to shreds,i mean they certainly have the power and might to disembowel with their hands and its certainly quicker.

Yet, with a few kills that we have had the honor to see close up Will,Small Paul's attempt on Sam and Othor's attempt on Jon. What the frack is up with the choking? It takes a bit of time firstly,but its a bit of an intimate way to kill someone really intimate.By the way where was the other one (Jafer) in all this? Othor was the only one in the attack.

"Before he could get out his other knife, the steel knife that every brother carried, the wight's black hands locked beneath his chins. Paul's fingers were so cold they seemed to burn. They burrowed deep into the soft flesh of Sam's throat (Sam 46 ASOS)."

"Will closed his eyes to pray .Long elegant hands brushed his cheek,then tightened around his throat AGOT,prologue."

"He glimpsed black hands buried in white fur,swollen dark fingers tightening around his direwolf's throat (AGOT,Jon)."

"When he opened his mouth to scream,the wight jammed it's black corpse fingers into Jon's mouth.......Its hand forced itself farther down his throat choking him(AGOT,Jon)."

Jafer killed Jaremy with a dagger

The other wight, the one-handed thing that had once been a ranger named Jafer Flowers, had also been destroyed, cut near to pieces by a dozen swords... but not before it had slain Ser Jaremy Rykker and four other men. Ser Jaremy had finished the job of hacking its head off, yet had died all the same when the headless corpse pulled his own dagger from its sheath and buried it in his bowels. Strength and courage did not avail much against foemen who would not fall because they were already dead; even arms and armor offered small protection.

Doesn't say how Jafer killed the other men, but it didn't draw a weapon until Jaremy so it probably killed them with its hands. Notice though that it draws Jaremy's dagger, and not its own.

Seems like a way to keep the bodies intact though if you avoid using weapons. Corpses will still fight with missing limbs and heads, but they'll fight better with everything intact I'd imagine.

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

You know what grinds my gears this F***ing Quaithe i mean who the F is she anyways and what the hell does she have to gain in all of this. With her stupid mask and her stupid half prophesies i mean seriously F U Quaithe.

And most likely Jafer didnt have his own dagger still, some honorable brother of the nights watch im sure relieved him of it.

O and F Quaithe