Voice Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Nope, but the sun is smiling today and my cute lemon tree is dwelling in rain and sunlight (recovering from a darkness that veiled it for five months), so perhaps the spirit is right (today ;)). And I´m no Ser, Ser. As I understood the nights got colder and the days as well. When there was a SiW the veil was lifted before the lemon trees died. But now the cute lemon tree will need all it´s strength to fight against the darkness and cold of the night...When a young maid got back to her home, the lemon tree should be rejoicing, for it escaped a grim fate. Shouldn´t it?I apologize m'lady. Based on the weather and your lemon tree, it sounds like you must be Braavosi. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted to snow Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Regarding my Theory that Jon will Warg Ghost, but when he takes human form again (as Mel's vision implies), he will be utilizing Hodor as his primary (host) body... Perhaps you guys & girls will think that I am a little less crazy if I can place Jon Snow & Hodor at the same time & place in TWoW... I will attempt that below... Point #1:GRRM said that we would get a POV character in the Heart of Winter, and what better book to do that in than The Winds of Winter?In AGoTs, Jon Snow promised Tyrion that if Benjin Stark did not return, that "Ghost & I will go find him (Benjin)"... Given that Jon will be warged into Ghost, Jon was being very literal when he said "Ghost & I" will go find him... I think GRRM will kill two birds with one stone, If Benjin is @ the Heart of Winter, then we get our Heart of Winter POV & Ghost/Jon finds Benjin all in the same chapter (or three). I can't give exact quotations & whatnot, but there is a ton of foreshadowing that suggest that Ghost & Val will be spending a lot of time together behind the wall in TWoW. I think Val will be Ghost/Jon's guide to the Heart of Winter. Val has already proven capable of rangings that are thought to be impossible by most (& with a 1/2 blind horse at that. If anyone knows how to find the Heart of Winter, it is Val. Jon will find not only find Benjin, but he will obviously learn some useful knowledge about the Others - Probably that Benjin either Is an Other or that he is well on his way to becoming an Other. This is because "The Cold Hell reserved for the Starks of Winterfell" that Ned ponders on AGoTs is located in The Heart of Winter. Ghost/Jon will not get along with these Others & he will exit The Heart of Winter on bad terms... Point #2 (Note, This may seem far removed from previous point, but it will all come together):When Jojen & Meera first came to Winterfell, after swearing their oath, Meera immediately says "Where are the direwolves? My Brother would like to see them." Little Walder replied "Best be sure that they don't see him, or else they are like to take a bite out of him!" Bran finally left the great Hall, went to bed & had a wolf dream. Bran was inside of Summer, in the Gods Wood. The Direwolves were growling @ the Reeds. Meera mentions how large they are & Jojen says they they will get much much bigger. Meera was very leery & fingering her knife blade & telling Jojen to be careful, but Jojen only said "Relax Sister, this is not the day I die." Jojen's statement, "this is not the day I die" has always struck me as rather curious. Also worth noting is that Jojen can't possibly have seen a full grown direwolf before, yet he knows that they will get much, much larger... We later learn that Jojen has Green Dreams. Jojen knows how large they will get because he has seen a fully grown direwolf in his Green Dreams. This is why Jojen says "this is not the day I die." because Jojen has seen his own death in his dreams. Jojen knows how he will die. He knows that he will be eaten by a direwolf, and he has clearly shared this information with his sister. Meera is frightened because she thinks that this might be the day that he dies, but Jojen is not frightened at all, he is confident... Why? Because he is looking at a Black Direwolf & a Grey Direwolf; and he knows that it is a white wolf that will eat him... Fast Forward to ADWDs. Jojen is depressed, & he mopes around, wondering endlessly through the caves because he has accepted his fate... This means that Jojen knows that this cave is where he will meet his end... or where he will meet a white direwolf, shall we say... Point #3:About 1.5 to 2.0 years ago GRRM did an interview where he told the reader that he was working on TWoW... I'll Paraphrase... GRRM was quoted saying "You have Jon Snow, running through the forrest, pursued by enemies. He is hungry. What is he going to eat? What is my next sentence? What is my next word?" Many, if not most people who read this interview took this as a hypothetical situation that GRRM quickly thought up during the interview to use as a generic example. However, that is not the way GRRM works. In GRRM-Land, nothing is said that does not boast one or more meanings. In this case, GRRM was really & truly describing a scenario/scene that takes place in TWOW - He was not hypothetically speaking. Point #4:ColdHands tells Bran that the Cave they are trying to reach does have a "backdoor" that is a couple of miles away & it can be found at the bottom of a sink-hole... Note: GRRM does not give random information like this unless the reader will at some point see someone or something of significance fall down that sink-hole. I think everyone will agree on this point. Conclusion (Putting it all together):Ghost Jon is returning from the Heart of Winter, armed with new truths about the Starks, the Others, and their relationship. But Ghost/Jon has been traveling in the barren, frozen wastelands of the Lands of Always Winter for weeks & he has not eaten - He is starving to death... Ghost Jon has made it as far South as the Northern edge of the Haunted Forrest. To complicate matters, the Others &/or Wights are in hot pursuit, chasing Ghost/Jon through the forrest. Just when he is on the verge of being taken/captured/killed, the snow gives way under under his paws & he falls into a sink-hole & spills into a large room that appears to be part of a cave network - a cave network that happens to be warded against Ghost/Jon's pursuers. Realizing that he is now safe, Ghost/Jon chances across a small, depressed boy who is wondering around the caverns... Jon Snow Kills & Eats Jojen Reed... All of these clues fit together far too well not to be right... This places Jon Snow in very near proximity to Bran, The 3-Eyed-Crow, & yes Hodor... Now if Jon Snow could just find a means out of his 2nd life in Ghost, then he could 'Take' Hodor & be the strongest man in Westeros (with a member larger that Tormund's)... After all, Hodor has been thoroughly 'broken in' to skinchanging by Bran. GRRM explained in ADWDs that a skinchanged animal is much like a horse that has been broken in to one rider - It is not difficult for a 2nd rider to come along and ride him... This means that Jon will find a means of taking Hodor's Body... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neumond Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 I apologize m'lady. Based on the weather and your lemon tree, it sounds like you must be Braavosi. As the ravens fly, a country separates my lemon tree from the ocean. ;) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 2, 2015 Author Share Posted May 2, 2015 When it's all said and done, I just don't think the author shares your need for the Stark-Lannister feud ;) Really, really really really? :cool4: The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 2, 2015 Author Share Posted May 2, 2015 The possibility of Rhaegar and Lyanna actually being in Casterly Rock at some point is interesting. Tywin had served as Hand for basically Rhaegar's entire life, so the two should have known each other well, and Tywin seemed pretty confident that he'd be marrying Cersei to Rhaegar before Aerys intervened. There may be important layers to Tywin and Rhaegar's relationship that have yet to be revealed.However, however...we've gotten no hint of Lyanna ever being at Casterly Rock from either Cersei or Ned's POVs. Tywin is dead, Pycelle is dead, Kevan is dead, and the remaining Lannisters and Starks seem to have no knowledge of this supposedly deeper fued--so where will we, through the POV system, come by this knowledge? And, if it were known that the Lannisters had aided Rhaegar at some point, wouldn't this have been a much bigger deal to Ned, to Robert?I'm still not sold on Lyanna's abduction as political. In political terms, the abduction is an absolute disaster if Rhaegar wants to have the support to depose his father, and we have no evidence that Rhaegar tried to use Lyanna's abduction as political leverage to keep the Starks tame. I'm not so sure. We grumble constantly about things the POV characters know about but we don't, but conversely there's also a lot that the POVs themselves don't know and whatever the cause we have two big gaps at this point. Where was Prince Rhaegar between his abducting Lyanna Stark and his return to Kings Landing en route to the Trident. And where was Lord Tywn Lannister during that same period up to the moment when his army got to Kings Landing ahead of Lord Eddard Stark and the rebel army? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 2, 2015 Author Share Posted May 2, 2015 The POV's are unreliable. Cersei's jealous rage clouds her judgment. She was desperately in love with Rhaegar. And Barristan, well, he wasn't part of Rhaegar's inner circle, he didn't really know what was going on: What were Rhaegar and Arthur up to at Harrenhal that Ser Barristan Selmy was not privy to? I think that one's straightforward enough and comes back to Hightower's line about guarding the king, not judging him. Baristan was in the same mould and not one to get involved in what at that point might be accounted treason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 2, 2015 Author Share Posted May 2, 2015 Aerys was far less mad than people realize. Much of his demonization has come after the fact, from the usurper and his dogs. :agree: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 2, 2015 Author Share Posted May 2, 2015 Regarding my Theory that Jon will Warg Ghost, but when he takes human form again (as Mel's vision implies), he will be utilizing Hodor as his primary (host) body... Perhaps you guys & girls will think that I am a little less crazy if I can place Jon Snow & Hodor at the same time & place in TWoW... I will attempt that below... I fear I have to continue to disagree but look forward to seeing the various responses on the diverse collections of threads on which you've posted this essay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 2, 2015 Author Share Posted May 2, 2015 To switch topics, do you think the letter above is what the Mods deem too spoilerish? Nay, 'tis in the public domain and having been sourced on this very site its formed part of the OP for quite some time. The problem is that this year the MODs are stricter than usual about cracking down on discussion of the show outside of the designated pages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Rickon I Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 So 165 isn't gone yet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 2, 2015 Author Share Posted May 2, 2015 When a young maid got back to her home, the lemon tree should be rejoicing, for it escaped a grim fate. Shouldn´t it? Alas my lady the development of which you speak so obliquely relates to the mummers rather than to the book and as dreadful example hath shewn cannot be discussed here without dire prognostications befalling us all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 2, 2015 Author Share Posted May 2, 2015 So 165 isn't gone yet... That you Mark? Revenuers catch up with you again? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 If Aerys had taken Lyanna as a political hostage in exchange for Winterfell's good behavior, this is something the whole realm should know. We've seen no evidence that there are tales of Aerys kidnapping Lyanna and using her as a political hostage, the tale is always that Rhaegar abducted her. Furthermore, Cersei (who should have had some insight to what was going on at Casterly Rock at the time of RR), and Barristan (who should have had insight into what was going on at KL) both believe that Rhaegar loved Lyanna. If Aerys had taken Lyanna as a political hostage to undermine his son Rhaegar, the whole realm (who thought highly of Rhaegar by the way) would have been shocked, but then to make it make sense they'd come to the conclusion that it must have been for love. Aerys wanted to turn the realm against his son, but he was well liked and the kidnapping didn't have quite the effect that he planned. Ser Barristan was a romantic, so it was easy for him to accept this romantic scenario for a man that he respected. Edited to add: I don't think Aerys wanted to start a war. I think he wanted to undermine his son's popularity and prevent a coup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Neumond Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Alas my lady the development of which you speak so obliquely relates to the mummers rather than to the book and as dreadful example hath shewn cannot be discussed here without dire prognostications befalling us all. :ohwell: I thought the problem was just the leaked stuff. I´m sorry, I didn´t intent to sink another thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 2, 2015 Author Share Posted May 2, 2015 No harm done and its a topic we can certainly discuss but only in relation to the books rather than any radical departures from them :cool4: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 Consider the blue roses. The blue rose is a symbol from Winterfell. Bael the bard left a blue rose when he stole the daughter of the Stark of Winterfell. Many readers believe a blue rose represents Jon, when Dany dreams of a blue rose in an ice wall. Lyanna's favorite flower was the blue rose. Blue roses can only grow in the greenhouse at Winterfell. Who would have selected blue roses for the crown at Harrenhall? If it were Rhaegar, he would have had designs on Lyanna before he even met her. If "eyes" had noticed the "wolf girl" when she sniffled after Rhaegar sang, does this indicate that the idea was new and plans were hastily put together? How was Rhaegar able to win the day? "No lance could touch him" the story said. If Rhaegar made all these plans, how did he know he would win? I don't think people were paid off to lose, because Brandon Stark was one of the losers, but he was wearing his ruby studded armor. Could it be that magic was involved? And, if it were magical, then the armor would have been made in advance. The whole tourney took a lot of planning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 The POV's are unreliable. Cersei's jealous rage clouds her judgment. She was desperately in love with Rhaegar. And Barristan, well, he wasn't part of Rhaegar's inner circle, he didn't really know what was going on: I didn't raise those two specifically to pursue the love angle, I raised them because they should be among the POVs that could give us insight if something political was going on. Nothing in Cersei's POV suggests that Lyanna was ever a political hostage at Casterly Rock, and there are seemingly no other characters alive who should have this knowledge, so how will we, the reader, learn this information?Similarly, if it's actually Aerys abducting Lyanna, why does Barristan view her as someone Rhaegar loved, rather than as a victim of Aerys' schemes? Even if the king of the realm abducted Lyanna Stark, and it was somehow unknown to the realm (and even his own Kingsguard) that he'd done this, why wasn't Rhaegar out there, shouting to everyone who would listen, that he has been falsely accused? Ser Barristan was a romantic, so it was easy for him to accept this romantic scenario for a man that he respected. I've seen several iterations of this argument (Barristan was out of the loop, Barristan is an idiot, etc.), and all of these seem to suppose that Barristan is making assumptions, rather than that he's basing it on knowledge gained from Rhaegar himself. Certainly possible, but there are some important things to note:-We know, as per a Jaime POV, that Rhaegar visited the Red Keep before marching on the Trident. It's at this point that Jaime pleads to be brought along, and Rhaegar has the possibly revealing conversation about how he'd meant to call a council and make changes.-Barristan marched to the Trident with Rhaegar, fought alongside Rhaegar.For Barristan to remain ignorant of a political plot where Aerys was the true abductor of Lyanna, this means that he not only has to have failed to notice what was going on with the king's scheming for a ~year, but that at no point did Rhaegar see fit to clear his name with the men that were about to die for him.Am I to believe that, between his return from Dorne and his death on the Trident, Rhaegar couldn't find the time to pull Barristan aside and explain that this whole Lyanna accusation is bullshit, that he's had nothing to do with her for the last several months? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melifeather Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 I didn't raise those two specifically to pursue the love angle, I raised them because they should be among the POVs that could give us insight if something political was going on. Nothing in Cersei's POV suggests that Lyanna was ever a political hostage at Casterly Rock, and there are seemingly no other characters alive who should have this knowledge, so how will we, the reader, learn this information?Similarly, if it's actually Aerys abducting Lyanna, why does Barristan view her as someone Rhaegar loved, rather than as a victim of Aerys' schemes? Even if the king of the realm abducted Lyanna Stark, and it was somehow unknown to the realm (and even his own Kingsguard) that he'd done this, why wasn't Rhaegar out there, shouting to everyone who would listen, that he has been falsely accused? I've seen several iterations of this argument (Barristan was out of the loop, Barristan is an idiot, etc.), and all of these seem to suppose that Barristan is making assumptions, rather than that he's basing it on knowledge gained from Rhaegar himself. Certainly possible, but there are some important things to note:-We know, as per a Jaime POV, that Rhaegar visited the Red Keep before marching on the Trident. It's at this point that Jaime pleads to be brought along, and Rhaegar has the possibly revealing conversation about how he'd meant to call a council and make changes.-Barristan marched to the Trident with Rhaegar, fought alongside Rhaegar.For Barristan to remain ignorant of a political plot where Aerys was the true abductor of Lyanna, this means that he not only has to have failed to notice what was going on with the king's scheming for a ~year, but that at no point did Rhaegar see fit to clear his name with the men that were about to die for him.Am I to believe that, between his return from Dorne and his death on the Trident, Rhaegar couldn't find the time to pull Barristan aside and explain that this whole Lyanna accusation is bullshit, that he's had nothing to do with her for the last several months? How would we know if Rhaegar was even aware of the kidnapping? And conversely, we never read about him defending his actions either. Indulge me a little and imagine a scenerio where Rhaegar leaves for Dorne before the kidnapping. Unless a raven is sent to Dorne or Starfall, how would Rhaegar even know what was going on? For all he knew, the Rebellion began as opposition to Aerys. Your argument that Rhaegar never took Barristan aside to deny is flimsy at best, because we also never see him defend his actions either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matthew. Posted May 2, 2015 Share Posted May 2, 2015 How would we know if Rhaegar was even aware of the kidnapping? And conversely, we never read about him defending his actions either. Errr...surely, by the time he was marching on the Trident, he had to be aware that the usurpers faction (or his own father) were accusing him of abducting Lyanna Stark. Perhaps he didn't know before then, but he must have known before his death, and you would think he'd try to defend himself. Your argument that Rhaegar never took Barristan aside to deny is flimsy at best, because we also never see him defend his actions either.No, we've never seen him defend his actions, but we do have hints that an alternative version of Robert's "he abducted her, and raped her a half hundred times" exists. Viserys and the men who helped save him and Dany were spirited away to Dragonstone before the Sack on King's Landing--and the tale that Viserys tells is that Rhaegar died fighting for the woman he loved--with the additional admonishment to Daenerys that, had she been born sooner, Rhaegar would have never been interested in the "wolf girl." Cersei expresses a similar sentiment. And, of course, Barristan believes that Rhaegar "loved his Lady Lyanna, and thousands died for it."Maybe they're all wrong, but these beliefs are rooted in something, and the fact that Barristan believes this suggests one of two things: He believes that Rhaegar loved Lyanna because Rhaegar himself told him this, or, he wants to believe the best of Rhaegar, and somehow, the two never managed to converse at any point before Rhaegar's death--that Rhaegar never took the time to say that the situation with Lyanna was a misunderstanding, that it was a political hostage situation gone wrong, or that he had never been with her at any point and was being falsely accused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Black Crow Posted May 2, 2015 Author Share Posted May 2, 2015 How would we know if Rhaegar was even aware of the kidnapping? Everything we have, including the World Book which is pretty specific about the time and place tells us it was Rhaegar and his gang whodunnit. There's never the slightest doubt on that or the smallest hint it was otherwise. What we do lack is any solid evidence as to what happened next and where they all went, hence the suggestion that there may have been some Lannister involvement - though not necessarily extending to her being held at Casterley Rock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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