Heresy 166

[Black Crow]

Welcome to Heresy 166, this week’s edition of the popular thread that takes a sideways look at the Song of Ice and Fire.

Don’t be intimidated by the size and scope of Heresy, or by some of the ideas we’ve discussed or might have discussed over the years. This is very much a jump straight in thread with no previous experience required. We’re very welcoming and very good at talking in circles and we don’t mind going over old ground again, especially with a fresh pair of eyes, so just ask, but be patient and observe the local house rules that the debate be conducted by reference to the text, with respect for the ideas of others, and above all with great good humour

Heresy you see is not a particular theory but a free-flowing and above all friendly series of discussions and arguments, usually concerned with the Wall, the Otherlands which lie beyond; warging, skinchanging, greenseeing, the old gods, the children and the white walkers - and the possible Stark connection to both.

GRRM’s original synopsis from 1993, [transcribed below as usual] emphasises that the story is followed through five related story arcs, not one. Clearly the script has changed and moved in a number of interesting directions since then but above all it’s clear from the synopsis that it does not revolve around the question of Jon Snow’s mother, far less a return of the king scenario for the conclusion of an altogether much larger and much richer story.

The strength and the beauty and ultimately the value of Heresy as a critical discussion group is that it reflects this diversity. This is a thread where ideas can be discussed – and argued – freely, because above all it is about an exchange of ideas and sometimes too a remarkably well informed exchange drawing upon an astonishing broad base of literature ranging through Joseph Conrad, Susannah Clarke, CS Lewis, and so many others all to the way to the Táin Bó Cúailnge and the Mabinogion; it’s about history [and 1189] It’s about mythology, archaeology, ringworks and chambered tombs and even heroic geology, but above all it’s about the Song of Ice and Fire.

If new to Heresy you may also want to refer to to Wolfmaid's essential guide to Heresy: http://asoiaf.wester...uide-to-heresy/, which provides annotated links to all the previous editions of Heresy, latterly identified by topic.

And, topically, remember the forum rules on not discussing the show outside of the sub-forum provided elsewhere on the site. Traditionally we’ve been a bit laid back about this, restricting discussion only to those matters of unequivocal relevance to Heresy, such as the Craster’s sons business, but this year the Mods are being much stricter, so let’s avoid the show and try to keep it business as usual

Beyond that, read on.

[Black Crow]

And now the slightly spoilerish full text of GRRM's1993 letter to his agent, Ralph Vicinanza. Things have obviously changed a bit since then but If you don’t want to know, don’t read on:

October 1993

Dear Ralph,

Here are the first thirteen chapters (170 pages) of the high fantasy novel I promised you, which I'm calling A Game of Thrones. When completed, this will be the first volume in what I see as an epic trilogy with the overall title, A Song of Ice and Fire.

As you know, I don't outline my novels. I find that if I know exactly where a book is going, I lose all interest in writing it. I do, however, have some strong notions as to the overall structure of the story I'm telling, and the eventual fate of many of the principle [sic] characters in the drama.

Roughly speaking, there are three major conflicts set in motion in the chapters enclosed. These will form the major plot threads of the trilogy, intertwining with each other in what should be a complex but exciting (I hope) narrative tapestry. Each of the conflicts presents a major threat to the peace of my imaginary realm, the Seven Kingdoms, and to the lives of the principal characters.

The first threat grows from the enmity between the great houses of Lannister and Stark as it plays out in a cycle of plot, counterplot, ambition, murder, and revenge, with the iron throne of the Seven Kingdoms as the ultimate prize. This will form the backbone of the first volume of the trilogy, A Game of Thrones.

While the lion of Lannister and the direwolf of Stark snarl and scrap, however, a second and greater threat takes shape across the narrow sea, where the Dothraki horselords mass their barbarians hordes for a great invasion of the Seven Kingdoms, led by the fierce and beautiful Daenerys Stormborn, the last of the Targaryen dragonlords. The Dothraki invasion will be the central story of my second volume,A Dance with Dragons.

The greatest danger of all, however, comes from the north, from the icy wastes beyond the Wall, where half-forgotten demons out of legend, the inhuman others, raise cold legions of the undead and the neverborn and prepare to ride down on the winds of winter to extinguish everything that we would call "life." The only thing that stands between the Seven Kingdoms and and endless night is the Wall, and a handful of men in black called the Night's Watch. Their story will be the heart of my third volume, The Winds of Winter. The final battle will also draw together characters and plot threads left from the first two books and resolve all in one huge climax.

The thirteen chapters on hand should give you a notion as to my narrative strategy. All three books will feature a complex mosaic of intercutting points-of-view among various of my large and diverse cast of players. The cast will not always remains the same. Old characters will die, and new ones will be introduced. Some of the fatalities will include sympathetic viewpoint characters. I want the reader to feel that no one is ever completely safe, not even the characters who seem to be the heroes. The suspense always ratchets up a notch when you know that any character can die at any time.

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, however, growing from children to adults and changing the world and themselves in the process. In a sense, my trilogy is almost a generational saga, telling the life stories of these five characters, three men and two women. The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Daenerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Arya, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow. All of them are introduced at some length in the chapters you have to hand.

This is going to be (I hope) quite an epic. Epic in its scale, epic in its action, and epic in its length. I see all three volumes as big books, running about 700 to 800 manuscript pages, so things are just barely getting underway in the thirteen chapters I've sent you.

I have quite a clear notion of how the story is going to unfold in the first volume, A Game of Thrones. Things will get a lot worse for the poor Starks before they get better, I'm afraid. Lord Eddard Stark and his wife Catelyn Tully are both doomed, and will perish at the hands of their enemies. Ned will discover what happened to his friend Jon Arryn, but before he can act on his knowledge, King Robert will have an unfortunate accident, and the throne will pass to his sullen and brutal son Joffrey, still a minor. Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter escape back to Winterfell.

Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue. Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, befriend both Sansa and her sister Arya, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Young Bran will come out of his coma, after a strange prophetic dream, only to discover that he will never walk again. He will turn to magic, at first in the hope of restoring his legs, but later for its own sake. When his father Eddard Stark is executed, Bran will see the shape of doom descending on all of them, but nothing he can say will stop his brother Robb from calling the banners in rebellion. All the north will be inflamed by war. Robb will win several splendid victories, and maim Joffrey Baratheon on the battlefield, but in the end he will not be able to stand against Jaime and Tyrion Lannister and their allies. Robb Stark will die in battle, and Tyrion Lannister will besiege and burn Winterfell.

Jon Snow, the bastard, will remain in the far north. He will mature into a ranger of great daring, and ultimately will succeed his uncle as the commander of the Night's Watch. When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Arya. Hounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran. Arya will be more forgiving... until she realizes, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Arya throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wildling encampment. Bran's magic, Arya's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Over across the narrow sea, Daenerys Targaryen will discover that her new husband, the Dothraki Khal Drogo, has little interest in invading the Seven Kingdoms, much to her brother's frustration. When Viserys presses his claims past the point of tact or wisdom, Khal Drogo will finally grow annoyed and kill him out of hand, eliminating the Targaryen pretender and leaving Daenerys as the last of her line. Daenerys will bide her time, but she will not forget. When the moment is right, she will kill her husband to avenge her brother, and then flee with a trusted friend into the wilderness beyond Vaes Dothrak. There, hunted by Dothraki bloodriders [?] of her life, she stumbles on a cache of dragon's eggs [?] of a young dragon will give Daenerys the power to bend the Dothraki to her will. Then she begins to plan for her invasion of the Seven Kingdoms.

Tyrion Lannister will continue to travel, to plot, and to play the game of thrones, finally removing his nephew Joffrey in disgust at the boy king's brutality. Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders. Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Arya Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Snow.

[7 Lines Redacted]

But that's the second book...

I hope you'll find some editors who are as excited about all of this as I am. Feel free to share this letter with anyone who wants to know how the story will go.

All best,

George R.R. Martin

What’s in that redacted passage we don’t know but here’s what appears to be the equally spoilerish original synopsis/publisher’s blurb for Winds of Winter; not the forthcoming one, alas, but one apparently dating back to when it was still to be the third volume of the trilogy and following directly on in content and style from the first synopsis set out above:

Continuing the most imaginative and ambitious epic fantasy since The Lord of the Rings Winter has come at last and no man can say whether it will ever go again. The Wall is broken, the cold dead legions are coming south, and the people of the Seven Kingdoms turn to their queen to protect them. But Daenerys Targaryen is learning what Robert Baratheon learned before her; that it is one thing to win a throne and quite another to sit on one. Before she can hope to defeat the Others, Dany knows she must unite the broken realm behind her. Wolf and lion must hunt together, maester and greenseer work as one, all the blood feuds must be put aside, the bitter rivals and sworn enemies join hands. The Winds of Winter tells the story of Dany’s fight to save her new-won kingdom, of two desperate journeys beyond the known world in to the very hearts of ice and fire, and of the final climactic battle at Winterfell, with life itself in the balance.

[Black Crow]

And from Heresy 165 for the sake of continuity

Lyanna's kidnapping was the worst plan ever for Rhaegar! As you already pointed out the alliance of Baratheon, Stark and Arryn and Tully could have been viewed as a huge threat. Rhaegar was trying to forge an alliance, and I believe Aerys kidnapped Lyanna to hold as a hostage to keep the North in line and it had the added bonus of ruining Rhaegar's plans.

Its always been a story of unintended consequences and we don't know what Rhaegar's cunning plan really was.

The problem with Aerys being involved is that we're very specifically told on every side that Rhaegar carried out the abduction and there's not the slightest evidence she was ever in Kings Landing at any point. Aerys might have ordered Rhaegar to do it and then lie low but it really doesn't sound like his style, especially as he himself took a very long time to locate and recall Rhaegar.

Nor, as I said above, is there really any evidence that Rhaegar went straight to Dorne. We've a pretty shrewd idea Lord Eddard went there to recover Lyanna from Starfall, but had she been there all the time?

What I'm starting to wonder you see, given what I outlined above, is whether Rhaegar, having lifted Lyanna didn't ride south to Dorne but west - to Casterley Rock and Tywin Lannister and whether this might be the origin of the Stark-Lannister feud

[Melifeather]

Just a quick copy and paste, and then I will read what you've posted above.

Its always been a story of unintended consequences and we don't know what Rhaegar's cunning plan really was.

The problem with Aerys being involved is that we're very specifically told on every side that Rhaegar carried out the abduction and there's not the slightest evidence she was ever in Kings Landing at any point. Aerys might have ordered Rhaegar to do it and then lie low but it really doesn't sound like his style, especially as he himself took a very long time to locate and recall Rhaegar.

Nor, as I said above, is there really any evidence that Rhaegar went straight to Dorne. We've a pretty shrewd idea Lord Eddard went there to recover Lyanna from Starfall, but had she been there all the time?

What I'm starting to wonder you see, given what I outlined above, is whether Rhaegar, having lifted Lyanna didn't ride south to Dorne but west - to Casterley Rock and Tywin Lannister and whether this might be the origin of the Stark-Lannister feud

We will table this discussion until after Season 5 is over, since I understand that there will be a place to present an essay later.

[Black Crow]

Eh?

A variety of topics are planned to be discussed in depth once the site quietens down after the season, including possible candidates for Jon Snow's father, but this here is an ongoing one about what Rhaegar may have thought he was trying to achieve by abducting Lyanna. Its a related discussion certainly, but its also a different one.

And with that I really really really must get myself off to bed.

Good night all.

[Melifeather]

And from Heresy 165 for the sake of continuity

Its always been a story of unintended consequences and we don't know what Rhaegar's cunning plan really was.

The problem with Aerys being involved is that we're very specifically told on every side that Rhaegar carried out the abduction and there's not the slightest evidence she was ever in Kings Landing at any point. Aerys might have ordered Rhaegar to do it and then lie low but it really doesn't sound like his style, especially as he himself took a very long time to locate and recall Rhaegar.

Nor, as I said above, is there really any evidence that Rhaegar went straight to Dorne. We've a pretty shrewd idea Lord Eddard went there to recover Lyanna from Starfall, but had she been there all the time?

What I'm starting to wonder you see, given what I outlined above, is whether Rhaegar, having lifted Lyanna didn't ride south to Dorne but west - to Casterley Rock and Tywin Lannister and whether this might be the origin of the Stark-Lannister feud

If you have plans for a later group of essays that discuss parentage, then I think we should table any further discussion about Aerys and his possible involvement in kidnapping Lyanna.

To switch topics, do you think the letter above is what the Mods deem too spoilerish?

[Melifeather]

Eh?

A variety of topics are planned to be discussed in depth once the site quietens down after the season, including possible candidates for Jon Snow's father, but this here is an ongoing one about what Rhaegar may have thought he was trying to achieve by abducting Lyanna. Its a related discussion certainly, but its also a different one.

And with that I really really really must get myself off to bed.

Good night all.

Would you want me to go into detail as to why I think Aerys kidnapped Lyanna? He doesn't even have to be a candidate for father, but I do think he's behind the kidnapping and planned to keep Lyanna hostage. This actually opens up the field of potential candidates more so than if Rhaegar did the abducting.

[Voice]

More continuity... as Heresy 165 will probably be deleted soon anyway LOL

Absolutely. No mediaeval monarch could ignore that kind of behaviour and the result although savage was entirely predictable. So predictable in fact that one has to wonder whether Brandon had his buttons pushed.

One does. I know you and I share this concern, Black Crow.

LOL

:cheers:

Thanks, BC

It was another deleted thread though, no word over there yet on it.

A Heretic's Guide to Heresy is going to start looking like Swiss Cheese!

Oh the inhumanity!

...or would have, had Rhaegar been anywhere nearby. Given that he wasn't even there, it's hard to argue that Brandon posed much of a threat.

Uh no. If I drove around your house waving a firearm around, calling for your son's immediate death, it would be no lesser a threat if he happened to have already run away to safer locales.

Nor did Brandon Stark do so, either. For the very reason that Prince Rhaegar was not there to be told.

If I cut down a tree in the forest, and shout that I wish it had fallen on your son, and you, your court, and your household guards were all there to hear me say it... then I have surely been caught making a threat upon your son's life... even if he wasn't standing beneath the tree.

Cat VII ACOK:

Jaime poured the last half cup of wine. "He rode into the Red Keep with a few companions, shouting for Prince Rhaegar to come out and die. But Rhaegar wasn't there. Aerys sent his guards to arrest them all for plotting his son's murder. The others were lords' sons too, it seems to me."

The bold directly speaks to your next point:

Aerys didn't arrest or execute Brandon Stark for posing a threat. He arrested and executed him for being a hot-headed fool. Maybe that's within a king's right to do. But it's hard to argue this king handled the situation with wisdom. Or that the execution was inarguably "just."

So I rest my case.

News to me. The link is indeed broken but it ran its full term and after what happened to 163 care was taken to avoid a repeat so I know nothing :dunno:

It might be time to flee to Dragonstone.

Its always been a story of unintended consequences and we don't know what Rhaegar's cunning plan really was.

The problem with Aerys being involved is that we're very specifically told on every side that Rhaegar carried out the abduction and there's not the slightest evidence she was ever in Kings Landing at any point. Aerys might have ordered Rhaegar to do it and then lie low but it really doesn't sound like his style, especially as he himself took a very long time to locate and recall Rhaegar.

Indeed.

And, at the very least, we do know Rhaegar was making plans.

And to the last para, yes, not Aerys' style at all. He's not exactly one to carry out his ambitions in a subtle way.

Nor, as I said above, is there really any evidence that Rhaegar went straight to Dorne. We've a pretty shrewd idea Lord Eddard went there to recover Lyanna from Starfall, but had she been there all the time?

What I'm starting to wonder you see, given what I outlined above, is whether Rhaegar, having lifted Lyanna didn't ride south to Dorne but west - to Casterley Rock and Tywin Lannister and whether this might be the origin of the Stark-Lannister feud

All entirely possible, but it sounds like wishful thinking. When it's all said and done, I just don't think the author shares your need for the Stark-Lannister feud ;)

[Matthew.]

The possibility of Rhaegar and Lyanna actually being in Casterly Rock at some point is interesting. Tywin had served as Hand for basically Rhaegar's entire life, so the two should have known each other well, and Tywin seemed pretty confident that he'd be marrying Cersei to Rhaegar before Aerys intervened. There may be important layers to Tywin and Rhaegar's relationship that have yet to be revealed.

However, however...we've gotten no hint of Lyanna ever being at Casterly Rock from either Cersei or Ned's POVs. Tywin is dead, Pycelle is dead, Kevan is dead, and the remaining Lannisters and Starks seem to have no knowledge of this supposedly deeper fued--so where will we, through the POV system, come by this knowledge? And, if it were known that the Lannisters had aided Rhaegar at some point, wouldn't this have been a much bigger deal to Ned, to Robert?

I'm still not sold on Lyanna's abduction as political. In political terms, the abduction is an absolute disaster if Rhaegar wants to have the support to depose his father, and we have no evidence that Rhaegar tried to use Lyanna's abduction as political leverage to keep the Starks tame.

[Matthew.]

All entirely possible, but it sounds like wishful thinking.

Yes, with respect to the various scenarios suggested, I think there is an element of wishful thinking here. I have a far more pessimistic view of just how cliche and sappy GRRM can sometimes be, and I really do think that a tragic romance is exactly what he intends with R+L. As far as I'm concerned, I've already read a couple cringe-inducing romances (or lust-mances, with Daario) over the course of the series as written.

And just look at that original outline! A love triangle, with an added layer of forbidden love that will be conveniently resolved in the final volume. It's always worthwhile to entertain the alternatives, but I think this is an area where Heretics are going to be disappointed.

[Voice]

Yes, with respect to the various scenarios suggested, I think there is an element of wishful thinking here. I have a far more pessimistic view of just how cliche and sappy GRRM can sometimes be, and I really do think that a tragic romance is exactly what he intends with R+L. As far as I'm concerned, I've already read a couple cringe-inducing romances (or lust-mances, with Daario) over the course of the series as written.

And just look at that original outline! A love triangle, with an added layer of forbidden love that will be conveniently resolved in the final volume. It's always worthwhile to entertain the alternatives, but I think this is an area where Heretics are going to be disappointed.

Yup. We like to think the man would ne'er pull a Romeo and Juliet, but the man is not bound by our likes and dislikes.

I know we all agree that whatever he has in mind, even if it is a sappy tragic love that bore Jon Snow, we will be satisfied with his expert storytelling. We're all fans of the series. We're all invested in the story. And I think we'll all be pleased with the conclusion in a trademark bittersweet way.

That all being said, if he is doing the sappy story of forbidden love, he has certainly created a far more interesting dynamic surrounding it: We have half-forgotten demons out of legend that might be held at bay, or led, by their bastard lovechild... We have a realm of men that have lost a connection with their own humanity, and probably deserve some retribution, or at least a wake-up call... We have the civil wars of the Seven Kingdoms (instigated by his parents?)... We have the old races showing themselves and the old powers awakening... Jon Snow is the only character in the entire series that is being forced to deal with every single one of these elements. One might call him central to the narrative :smoking:

[Melifeather]

The possibility of Rhaegar and Lyanna actually being in Casterly Rock at some point is interesting. Tywin had served as Hand for basically Rhaegar's entire life, so the two should have known each other well, and Tywin seemed pretty confident that he'd be marrying Cersei to Rhaegar before Aerys intervened. There may be important layers to Tywin and Rhaegar's relationship that have yet to be revealed.

However, however...we've gotten no hint of Lyanna ever being at Casterly Rock from either Cersei or Ned's POVs. Tywin is dead, Pycelle is dead, Kevan is dead, and the remaining Lannisters and Starks seem to have no knowledge of this supposedly deeper fued--so where will we, through the POV system, come by this knowledge? And, if it were known that the Lannisters had aided Rhaegar at some point, wouldn't this have been a much bigger deal to Ned, to Robert?

I'm still not sold on Lyanna's abduction as political. In political terms, the abduction is an absolute disaster if Rhaegar wants to have the support to depose his father, and we have no evidence that Rhaegar tried to use Lyanna's abduction as political leverage to keep the Starks tame.

It was very political.

It is believed that Rhaegar wanted the Tourney at Harrenhal so that he could more easily speak with the many Lords in a realm that was increasingly upset with Aerys. It makes no sense what so ever for Rhaegar to kidnap Lyanna when he was trying to build alliances! He wasn't known to be reckless. He was planning ahead, and part of those plans were to remove his son and heir Aegon from the clutches of Aerys to the safety of Dorne. In fact, he wanted Elia and Rhaynes to go too, but Aerys insisted Elia and the children stay in Kings Landing while Rhaegar was away. This demonstrates how very paranoid Aerys was of Rhaegar usurping his throne.

My theory includes Rhaegar enlisting the help of Varys to swap babies so that he could secret the real Aegon away to the safety of his mother's homeland.

The kidnapping took place as soon as Rhaegar left. Somehow it happened shortly after Brandon left Winterfell to ride to Riverrun to marry Catelyn. He heard about the kidnapping on the way, skipped going to Riverrun and continued on to Kings Landing. It is possible that Tywin assisted with the kidnapping. It seems like a sound military tactic to take a hostage and to dissolve the threat Rhaegar posed. Aerys believed Tywin was an ally, even if he was pouting at Casterly Rock.

[Matthew.]

It is possible that Tywin assisted with the kidnapping. It seems like a sound military tactic to take a hostage and to dissolve the threat Rhaegar posed. Aerys believed Tywin was an ally, even if he was pouting at Casterly Rock.

If Aerys had taken Lyanna as a political hostage in exchange for Winterfell's good behavior, this is something the whole realm should know. We've seen no evidence that there are tales of Aerys kidnapping Lyanna and using her as a political hostage, the tale is always that Rhaegar abducted her. Furthermore, Cersei (who should have had some insight to what was going on at Casterly Rock at the time of RR), and Barristan (who should have had insight into what was going on at KL) both believe that Rhaegar loved Lyanna.

[The Snowfyre Chorus]

Uh no. If I drove around your house waving a firearm around, calling for your son's immediate death, it would be no lesser a threat if he happened to have already run away to safer locales.

If I cut down a tree in the forest, and shout that I wish it had fallen on your son, and you, your court, and your household guards were all there to hear me say it... then I have surely been caught making a threat upon your son's life... even if he wasn't standing beneath the tree.

Cat VII ACOK:

Jaime poured the last half cup of wine. "He rode into the Red Keep with a few companions, shouting for Prince Rhaegar to come out and die. But Rhaegar wasn't there. Aerys sent his guards to arrest them all for plotting his son's murder. The others were lords' sons too, it seems to me."

The bold directly speaks to your next point:

So I rest my case.

Well, I'm not saying what Brandon did was smart in any shape or form. It's just hard to imagine how what he was doing could have amounted to a "plot to murder." Clearly he had no idea where Rhaegar was, and no intention (or chance) of taking the prince unawares. He rode through the royal front door, for goodness sake... yelling for Rhaegar to come out. To me, that sounds more like he was challenging the prince to a duel - publicly accusing the prince himself of a crime, and calling him to account for slighted honor. A plot to murder would look more like... Jaime Lannister and his men lying in wait, creeping up on Ned Stark in the dark streets of King's Landing.

Now, what the hell was Brandon Stark thinking? Who knows? He should have known to expect what he got. And maybe he did...

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

Well, I'm not saying what Brandon did was smart in any shape or form. It's just hard to imagine how what he was doing could have amounted to a "plot to murder." Clearly he had no idea where Rhaegar was, and no intention (or chance) of taking the prince unawares. He rode through the royal front door, for goodness sake... yelling for Rhaegar to come out. To me, that sounds more like he was challenging the prince to a duel - publicly accusing the prince himself of a crime, and calling him to account for slighted honor. A plot to murder would look more like... Jaime Lannister and his men lying in wait, creeping up on Ned Stark in the dark streets of King's Landing.

Now, what the hell was Brandon Stark thinking? Who knows? He should have known to expect what he got. And maybe he did...

He was arrested for intending to kill Rhaegar when ever he found him. Its technically not a plot if its not secret lol but thats what he was arrested and killed for. No doubt a dumb decision he def should have thought it through, but maybe he was pushed to make that decision or maybe he really was hotheaded like were told

[superunknown5]

Cersei (who should have had some insight to what was going on at Casterly Rock at the time of RR), and Barristan (who should have had insight into what was going on at KL) both believe that Rhaegar loved Lyanna.

The POV's are unreliable. Cersei's jealous rage clouds her judgment. She was desperately in love with Rhaegar.

Black cats brought ill luck, as Rhaegar's little girl had discovered in this very castle. She would have been my daughter, if the Mad King had not played his cruel jape on Father. It had to have been the madness that led Aerys to refuse Lord Tywin's daughter and take his son instead, whilst marrying his own son to a feeble Dornish princess with black eyes and a flat chest.

The memory of the rejection still rankled, even after all these years. Many a night she had watched Prince Rhaegar in the hall, playing his silver-stringed harp with those long, elegant fingers of his. Had any man ever been so beautiful? He was more than a man, though. His blood was the blood of old Valyria, the blood of dragons and gods. When she was just a little girl, her father had promised her that she would marry Rhaegar. She could not have been more than six or seven. "Never speak of it, child," he had told her, smiling his secret smile that only Cersei ever saw. "Not until His Grace agrees to the betrothal. It must remain our secret for now." And so it had, though once she had drawn a picture of herself flying behind Rhaegar on a dragon, her arms wrapped tight about his chest. When Jaime had discovered it she told him it was Queen Alysanne and King Jaehaerys. - Cersei, AFfC

And Barristan, well, he wasn't part of Rhaegar's inner circle, he didn't really know what was going on:

The Red Keep had its secrets too. Even Rhaegar. The Prince of Dragonstone had never trusted him as he had trusted Arthur Dayne. Harrenhal was proof of that. The year of the false spring. - The Kingbreaker, ADwD

What were Rhaegar and Arthur up to at Harrenhal that Ser Barristan Selmy was not privy to?

[Neumond]

Good Morning dear heretics. :)

I know you have talked about the importance of the "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" saying. Due to some developments, I would like to dive into it.

But I couldn´t find it in the guide to heresy. Is it just part of the general Winterfell-discussions?

(Btw: I haven´t seen the leaked episodes, so the question shouldn´t be an issue...)

[Voice]

Well, I'm not saying what Brandon did was smart in any shape or form. It's just hard to imagine how what he was doing could have amounted to a "plot to murder." Clearly he had no idea where Rhaegar was, and no intention (or chance) of taking the prince unawares. He rode through the royal front door, for goodness sake... yelling for Rhaegar to come out. To me, that sounds more like he was challenging the prince to a duel - publicly accusing the prince himself of a crime, and calling him to account for slighted honor. A plot to murder would look more like... Jaime Lannister and his men lying in wait, creeping up on Ned Stark in the dark streets of King's Landing.

Now, what the hell was Brandon Stark thinking? Who knows? He should have known to expect what he got. And maybe he did...

Sure I hear ya. But this isn't Boston, MA. This is King's Landing. Here, the law is whatever the king says it is. There is no due process. No right to a fair trial. No defense lawyers.

It of course wasn't attempted murder, by our modern definition, like what Jaime did... But Aerys called a spade a spade. Brandon was in fact plotting to murder. Not all plots are discreet of course, and Brandon wasn't as clever a man as Littlefinger. I think he expected a duel. But you're not in Kansas anymore there, Stark.

Thus, everyone heard his "plot" when he called for Rhaegar to come out and die. Rhaegar wasn't home, so it was only a stupid threat, rather than a true danger to Aerys' blood. But nonetheless, even in today's modern society, a death threat is a very serious matter. And, you can wind up behind bars for making such threats.

In medieval society, one does not simply threaten a monarch, or his blood, without being dealt with in a medieval way :devil:

Aerys was far less mad than people realize. Much of his demonization has come after the fact, from the usurper and his dogs.

[Voice]

Good Morning dear heretics. :)

I know you have talked about the importance of the "there must always be a Stark in Winterfell" saying. Due to some developments, I would like to dive into it.

But I couldn´t find it in the guide to heresy. Is it just part of the general Winterfell-discussions?

(Btw: I haven´t seen the leaked episodes, so the question shouldn´t be an issue...)

Huh, I guess it's technically morning. 12:35am. I'm guessing you're not from california :)

Good Morning in any timezone though, Ser.

The ol' Stark in Winterfell. The SiW for short... Yes. Those were the days, aye? I remember when there was a Stark in Winterfell, a teenage girl could walk down mainstreet in her birthday suit and still go unmolested, and commuters could find fire, bread, and salt at many an inn and gas station. But the nights are colder now, and roads are congested. There's gangs in the suburbs, and racist police men ride the highways asking after strangers. Even the WiFi seems worse.

You tell it true. We speak of the SiW often, but quietly these days. Seems a good, dedicated topic for a Heresy. Aye. It was different when there was a Stark in Winterfell. But the old wolf's got writer's block and young one's off writing addendum material to exploit the game of thrones, and all that's left us is the show.

[Neumond]

Huh, I guess it's technically morning. 12:35am. I'm guessing you're not from california :)

Good Morning in any timezone though, Ser.

The ol' Stark in Winterfell. The SiW for short... Yes. Those were the days, aye? I remember when there was a Stark in Winterfell, a teenage girl could walk down mainstreet in her birthday suit and still go unmolested, and commuters could find fire, bread, and salt at many an inn and gas station. But the nights are colder now, and roads are congested. There's gangs in the suburbs, and racist police men ride the highways asking after strangers. Even the WiFi seems worse.

You tell it true. We speak of the SiW often, but quietly these days. Seems a good, dedicated topic for a Heresy. Aye. It was different when there was a Stark in Winterfell. But the old wolf's got writer's block and young one's off writing addendum material to exploit the game of thrones, and all that's left us is the show.

Nope, but the sun is smiling today and my cute lemon tree is dwelling in rain and sunlight (recovering from a darkness that veiled it for five months), so perhaps the spirit is right (today ;)).

And I´m no Ser, Ser.

As I understood the nights got colder and the days as well. When there was a SiW the veil was lifted before the lemon trees died. But now the cute lemon tree will need all it´s strength to fight against the darkness and cold of the night...

When a young maid got back to her home, the lemon tree should be rejoicing, for it escaped a grim fate. Shouldn´t it?