Anyone else really liking Maegor?

[Ingelheim]

You really believe that Viserys I was the better heir?

By Andal law Rhaenys was the heir, there was nothing vague about it.

That's not the Andal law.

Cersei never was Tywin's heir despite being the oldest. The same for Catelyn.

And I don't know if Rhaenys would have been a better ruler than Viserys. But it was during Viserys' reign when the Targaryens were at their peak.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

That's not the Andal law.

Cersei never was Tywin's heir despite being the oldest. The same for Catelyn.

And I don't know if Rhaenys would have been a better ruler than Viserys. But it was during Viserys' reign when the Targaryens were at their peak.

Never said the oldest, that is only in Dorne. But neither BF or Kevan could be the Lord of Riverrun or the Rock before Cat or Cersei.

[IdoTheChoombi]

Andal Law means agnatic-cognatic primogeniture, no? as in youngest son goes before eldest daughter, but eldest daughter goes before cousin/uncle/brother or whatever.

so by that, Rheanys was the heir by andal law, being the only child of his eldest son(of those who managed to pop kids before they died)

[Lord Varys]

This thing is much more complex. Daughters seem to come before uncles on a lordly level, but prior to the Conquest there was only one Queen Regnant in the Reach of all the Seven Kingdoms outside Dorne. It was Jaehaerys I who unified the laws of the kingdoms.

It makes no sense to assume that all kings in Westeros had always sons for thousands of years which means it was the rule that females were passed over for millennia.

Later on under the Targaryens the 'daughters come before uncles' rule seem to have become a widely accepted custom - but not on the royal level. Men don't want to be ruled by a woman.

Again, if Jaehaerys had been acting against 'the law' in 92 AC the Realm should have stood up against him and his family - including Baelon himself - should have rebelled. But they were content with it, and the Great Council even went as far as to vote against a male claimant from the elder female line.

TWoIaF makes it clear that there is no real succession law. Just precedents and general guidelines. The predominant guideline is that the eldest son inherits - but even that can be challenged. If the eldest son predeceases his father things get always complicated. Grandchildren aren't the immediate heirs of their grandfathers by default.

We see this happening again and again. When Baelor dies without issue, when Aerys I has no issue and thus has to pick heirs from his immediate kin, when Maekar's elder sons predecease him and he dies without a chosen heir, and when Aerys II names his own son Viserys his heir after the Trident rather than Rhaegar's son Aegon.

[Ingelheim]

This is thing is much more complex. Daughters seem to come before uncles on a lordly level, but prior to the Conquest there was there was only one Queen Regnant in the Reach of all the Seven Kingdoms outside Dorne. It was Jaehaerys I who unified the laws of the kingdoms.

It makes no sense to assume that all kings in Westeros had always sons for thousands of years which means it was the rule that females were passed over for millennia.

Later on under the Targaryens the 'daughters come before uncles' rule seem to have become a wildly accepted custom - but not on the royal level. Men don't want to be ruled by a woman.

Again, if Jaehaerys had been acting against 'the law' in 92 AC the Realm should have stood up against him and his family - including Baelon himself - should have rebelled. But they were content with it, and the Great Council even went as far as to vote against a male from the elder female line in 101.

TWoIaF makes it clear that there is no real succession law. Just precedents and general guidelines. The predominant guideline is that the eldest son inherits - but even that can be challenged. If the eldest son predeceases his father things get always complicated. Grandchildren aren't the immediate heirs of their grandfathers by default.

We see this happening again and again. When Baelor dies without issue, when Aerys I has no issue and thus has to pick heirs from his immediate kin, when Maekar's elder sons predecease him and he dies without a chosen heir, and when Aerys II names his own son Viserys his heir after the Trident rather than Rhaegar's son Aegon.

This. Very much this.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Andal Law means agnatic-cognatic primogeniture, no? as in youngest son goes before eldest daughter, but eldest daughter goes before cousin/uncle/brother or whatever.

so by that, Rheanys was the heir by andal law, being the only child of his eldest son(of those who managed to pop kids before they died)

Exactly.

[IdoTheChoombi]

great, can we go back to discussing maegor?

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Again, I will repeat what I said before, he had the power, was the eldest of Visenya

oh, got you're point there.

Irrelevant. They were hostile claimans, and there is only one way to deal with hostile claimants. Daenarys escaped to Esos. Is she satisfied that she is alive or is she ploting to return? And same for other claimants.

the only way to deal with hostile claimants is to rape your niece?

there is also the thing about how viserys died in a really painful way.

And I just used him(Aegon IV) to show what kindness gets in that world

Aegon IV set it as his life mission to incite Daemon to rebel after he dies, i remind you. it wasn't the result of him being kind as much as it was the result of him giving him the flipping family sword

When the rule is till death do us apart, and divorce is not granted, one can only expediate the death

based on the silly assumpation(his, not yours) that just because your wife gave a stillborn it's impossible she'll ever give you a healthy child.

and again, he killed her whole fucking family, that is just not cool.

and also, that isn't really a justification to kill your wife, given he had, what, 5 wives at the time?

And in middle of a civil war on two sides. He needed an heir.

i mention the 5 wives again

Incest sucks but not for Targaryens. Its their tradition and their custom. They are the last of their kind and blood in the world.

thats not an excuse to create inbred freaks

I concede the maesters. But leaving a hostile family is not a smart thing.

they wouldn't be hostile if you didn't kill one of it's members

Then what should he have done. I am really curious. IF you were in his position, in middle of a civil war, what would you do with the builders?

i would probably not tell them to build a million secret passages, to start with.

do nothing to them, i guess, chances are they'll just go to live their lives peacefully ever after, not go tell my enemies about the secret passages.

And by the time he died he also took out the worst of the opposition. I am not saying he could win. Only that he set everything up for his succesor.

opposition that he skillfuly managed to create out of thin air, the only opposition that was there by the time he started, the faith militant, was appeased without any killing soon after he died.

sure, let's genocide an entire continent, fun.

This isnt our world. Genocide, mass enslavement are a rule, not exception.

how in the world does that make it less wrong?

Check out the Rhoynar and/or Old Ghis

[Ingelheim]

great, can we go back to discussing maegor?

Sure.

Maegor wasn't half as bad as they made him to be. There are some really good theories about Aegon being barren and Visenya conceiving him through dark magic, so...everything is possible.

Also, his mistress was a sorcerer who used magic to get him out of comma. He wasn't half as mad before that, although he was still cruel.

[Gibzit]

Everyone who likes Maegor on this thread still ignore the fact that he tortured his own fucking nephew!

[IdoTheChoombi]

Everyone who likes Maegor on this thread still ignore the fact that he tortured his own fucking nephew!

nah, thats not on top of his crimes, for me the worst is the killing his wife and her entire family.

and i do remind you that your favorite king in all likelihood poisoned his nephew ;) , so being pissed about kin-killing would be somewhat hypocritical.

[Gibzit]

nah, thats not on top of his crimes, for me the worst is the killing his wife and her entire family.

and i do remind you that your favorite king in all likelihood poisoned his brother ;) , so being pissed about kin-killing would be somewhat hypocritical.

Viserys II allegedly murdred his Nephew to save the realm of having to deal with more years of having a religous fanatic on the the throne, Maegor murdred his nephew because he thought his mom was a traitor.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Everyone who likes Maegor on this thread still ignore the fact that he tortured his own fucking nephew!

Yes, he turned to the dark side in the end. Traumata can cause that. But as Hand and during the first couple years, he was close to the picture of the perfect king.

Viserys II allegedly murdred his Nephew to save the realm of having to deal with more years of having a religous fanatic on the the throne, Maegor murdred his nephew because he thought his mom was a traitor.

Well... she was.

Cruel, but not unfounded.

[IdoTheChoombi]

Viserys II allegedly murdred his Nephew to save the realm of having to deal with more years of having a religous fanatic on the the throne

i am well aware of how justified viserys II was *maybe* murdering his baelor, he's amongst my favorite kings, and if he did indeed poison him that makes me respect him more, not less.

Maegor murdred his nephew because he thought his mom was a traitor.

his mom WAS a traitor(anyone who is a traitor to maegor is automatically awesome, mind).

my point is that kin-killing isn't much worse than random-guy-killing, only why matters, not who.

and anyway, we seem to agree on the major point that maegor was a major asshole.

[Lord Varys]

Maegor wasn't 'close to the ideal king' as Prince of Hand. He enjoyed punishing Jonos the Kinslayer and his accomplices. In fact, when Maegor came on Balerion Jonos' allies gave him up in exchange for a pardon - but Maegor hanged them anyway.

[The silver dragon]

Everyone who likes Maegor on this thread still ignore the fact that he tortured his own fucking nephew!

his nephew was under no uncertain conditions a hostage.

before alyssa decided to steal dark sister, ally with lord baratheon and crown jaehaerys king. (clear act's of rebellion)

viserys was treated fairly well becoming maegor's personally squire.

after alyssa declared rebellion what was maegor gonna do with his hostage besides kill him?

i mean not killing your hostages makes you look weak and half assed.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Maegor wasn't 'close to the ideal king' as Prince of Hand. He enjoyed punishing Jonos the Kinslayer and his accomplices. In fact, when Maegor came on Balerion Jonos' allies gave him up in exchange for a pardon - but Maegor hanged them anyway.

"Enjoyed punishing him"? Where is that stated?

Of course he hanged them! They are murderers and traitors! Letting them alive would be anything but justice. My personal opinion to capital punishment nonwithstanding.

his nephew was under no uncertain conditions a hostage.

before alyssa decided to steal dark sister, ally with lord baratheon and crown jaehaerys king. (clear act's of rebellion)

viserys was treated fairly well becoming maegor's personally squire.

after alyssa declared rebellion what was maegor gonna do with his hostage besides kill him?

i mean not killing your hostages makes you look weak and half assed.

Spot on.

[The silver dragon]

Everyone who likes Maegor on this thread still ignore the fact that he tortured his own fucking nephew!

the damnable double posts strike again.

[Lord Varys]

BBE,

well, it came off that way in 'The Sons of the Dragon'.

As to Prince Viserys:

We know too little about Alyssa's efforts to undermine Maegor to decide whether she was a real threat then. But torturing Viserys for days wasn't exactly necessary...

[Alester Florent]

I would really like to be able to make the argument that Maegor was a great king, and that his asshattery was the product of misfortune and circumstance. Unfortunately, the books just don't support that as things stand, and as I mentioned in another thread yesterday.

He seems to have been Aenys's enforcer during his reign, and there's nothing to suggest he was anything other than a capable and loyal advisor and Hand to his brother while he lived. It looks a bit like a Tywin/Aerys arrangement, really, and seems to have worked well until Aenys caved in to the Faith and exiled Maegor. By the time Aenys died the realm had gone completely down the pan and was virtually if not actually in a state of civil war. When Maegor returned he was pretty much exactly what Westeros needed; someone to put the wind up the Faith and stamp a reassertion of royal authority on the realm. Whether or not Aegon should have been king instead (and the laws may have been less clear than we know, leaving aside questions of legitimacy) he was besieged at Crakehall and in no position to take the throne and do what needed to be done. Unfortunately, in the Trial of Seven he took a whack on the head which seems to have left him mentally damaged, and from that point onwards became completely paranoid and lost all sense of perspective, his ruthlessness coming to dominate any other once-creditable features of his personality. Still, he did what needed to be done and by the time of his death had established a united kingdom under the king... even if the king everyone recognised was eventually Jaehaerys, rather than him.

The above would, I think, be a compelling narrative.

Unfortunately, what we seem to get from Sons of the Dragon, and to a lesser extent from AWoIaF, is a one-note villain who kicked puppies for fun as soon as he could walk, and was basically Joffrey Mk1, with few if any redeeming features at all.

[HouseHarrison]

Maegor wasn't really "secular", he was just brutal and didn't like people usurping his power.