The Old Woman In Winterfell

[SamCrow]

I'd like to think she really is a Stark loyalist.

Could it be Myranda setting her up? The old woman told Sansa about lighting the candle in the ruined tower, then Myranda appeared as Sansa was standing below the tower and got all passive aggressive with her. Did she just stumble upon her or did she suspect Sansa would go there after the tip-off?

[jet199]

Is this a book spoiler thread?

The tower where Bran falls is also is the where Little Walder's body is found. Seeing as we have no Little Walder at the moment they may well replace him with his sister, Fat Walda. I think it's likely that Sansa will go to the tower for help only to find Fat Walda's body there.

I actually think it is a really good idea to put an extra shock in there which book reader's aren't expecting. One thing I always hated about fantasy novels was overly loving, grateful to be trodden on servants who do anything to help the pain in the arse, feckless hero for no reason (sometimes these servants are even a different species which gives the whole thing a lovely racist twang). It would be nice to see this trope turned on it's head.

[TFP]

The whole tower idea seems faintly ridiculous... Climbing up a tower and making a fire, what a faff for a signal that's presumably only visible at night... Why wouldn't the old woman simply say, 'have a word with me if you're in trouble, I'll get the message across'?

[Masha]

First of all, there are a lot of old housekeeping folk in the North, not just Winterfell and Dreadfort, I just thought it was a old woman recently hired on as housekeeping help. Sometimes, Occam's Razor theory is right. It can be as simple as random common northern woman who keeps faith with Starks.

Both "the North remembering and being Stark supporters" and "Ramsay setting Sansa up" are leading candidates to me. I tend to lean towards him setting her up, but this new shrewd and cautious Sands does not fall for such ploys.

Secondly, The North Remembers - are basically a slogan now in the North started with Robb. The North Remembers - means we are with Starks and we will get our revenge and justice. Everybody knows it. When they see sole remaining Stark, its the thing to say to show your support. Not surprised both old woman and Ramsey know it, just different meanings from them. From old woman - it means North is with you (Sansa) and Ramsey - means "I understand you and am trying to be likeable towards you" (He was trying to be nice to Sansa in his own perverted way.

What makes much less sense to me is the old guy Brienne talked with. If he had actually lived there for long, then he would have been killed when Ramsay torched Winterfell, as obviously they would have eliminated any nearby witnesses. The old lady could just be a nobody peasant, but for the same reason she can't be someone who has just happened to always live there.

Of course in theory he could have managed to hide or conveniently been somewhere else when it all happened, but that'd be rather contrived if it was never explained.

Thirdly, Brianne is NOT in Winterfell proper, she is in Winter Town next to it looking on towards Winterfell. I don't think Winter Town was ever burned, its residents are still there (and accords to World book) the population there quadruples as Winter starts. So the guy is just random common peasant/townperson who either long-time residents of Winter Town or just season Winter resident.

In the books at least, most common folk still talk about Targs are their true royalty and for them Robert and his ilk is just Pretenders. Can't be that different in the North, Starks are the Lords and Kings there, and doesn't matter if they are all dead and some Pretenders gives North to Boltons, in eyes of common folk Starks are True Lords of Winterfell. And Brianne should know this.

[MakeThemBurn]

I think she's genuine. I can already see Brienne rushing to Wnterfell the moment Sansa lights a candle.

[Direwight]

Thirdly, Brianne is NOT in Winterfell proper, she is in Winter Town next to it looking on towards Winterfell. I don't think Winter Town was ever burned, its residents are still there (and accords to World book) the population there quadruples as Winter starts. So the guy is just random common peasant/townperson who either long-time residents of Winter Town or just season Winter resident.

I know. My point was that you can literally see Winterfell from there. If everyone there had not been killed, they would have seen Ramsay's army besiege the castle for days, take and torch it and the "ironborn did it" ploy wouldn't have worked.

I suppose there's still bigger plot holes both in the book and show about it, such as why literally no Boltons would have remained to keep an eye on Winterfell afterwards, but still my immediate reaction to the old guy was "you can't have been there, you'd be dead".

[Extremely Extreme]

Here's my take on it: I believe that Brienne is replacing Mance in rescuing Sansa. There's some decent foreshadowing that suggests Sansa will need rescuing and that Brienne will be in a position to do that rescuing.

Littlefinger tells Sansa that we can "avenge" the ones we love. She is going to be very close to Roose Bolton this season. Sansa will kill Roose Bolton, or at least bring about his death in some way (perhaps through Theon).

Meanwhile, Brienne wins over the old man she met with her sense of honor and vows. That old man is a Stark loyalist, as was the old woman who said "The North Remembers," when Sansa arrived in Winterfell. They're literally just two people who really liked the Starks, and I don't think the show will complicate that by giving them actual characters (like "Lady Dustin," etc.)They let Brienne in on their meager conspiracy and escape plan if something goes wrong - that is, they tell her that if the candle is lit in the highest tower, Sansa is in danger.

And bringing about the death of Lord Bolton does put her in considerable danger. After bringing about the death of Lord Bolton, she lights the candle and eventually escapes with Brienne.

[Witchy]

My take on it is that initially she just wanted Sansa to know she has friends within Winterfell, then the old guy Brienne spoke to at the Inn used her to pass on the message.

I agree with this. In the show it seemed that everyone at Winterfell was killed when Ramsey burned it, but some could have escaped and come back. Or, more likely, the old lady and the old man Brienne talked to could be from the little towns surrounding, all of which would have been loyal to the Starks going back hundreds of generations. It did make me nervous when Ramsey said the North remembers, though. Where would he have heard that? I wonder if we're to take that to mean that the small folk are whispering this a lot, and the Boltons know.

[john666]

The old lady is almost certainly Roose Bolton's spy.

It doesn't make sense that Brienne sent a message to Sansa " light a candle and help will arrive", because in that situation how could Brienne possibly help her?

Break into the castle(how?), kill ALL the Bolton's men standing in her way(how?), and then safely escape from Winterfell?

Not even Brienne is that crazy.

[Lord BitterRaven]

The old lady is almost certainly Roose Bolton's spy.

It doesn't make sense that Brienne sent a message to Sansa " light a candle and help will arrive", because in that situation how could Brienne possibly help her?

Break into the castle(how?), kill ALL the Bolton's men standing in her way(how?), and then safely escape from Winterfell?

Not even Brienne is that crazy.

Good point. And it makes more sense for Sansa to once again find herself in a position to breath freely only to have the rug pulled out from underneath her. I don't think that's going to happen in the books, but the Winterfell plot in the show is totally diff. from the books so they could totally pull that off.

And then the tortured Sansa and Theon get married (on their wedding night Theon grows a new penis)...... THE END

[john666]

Good point. And it makes more sense for Sansa to once again find herself in a position to breath freely only to have the rug pulled out from underneath her. I don't think that's going to happen in the books, but the Winterfell plot in the show is totally diff. from the books so they could totally pull that off.

And then the tortured Sansa and Theon get married (on their wedding night Theon grows a new penis)...... THE END

Yes.

The creators of the show said that Sansa is going to go "dark".

Which certainly isn't compatible with "damsel in distress", but is compatible with Sansa gaining Bolton family trust, and then at the end killing them all.

[SavosDeaworth]

I don't beleive that the old woman is a Bolton ploy. Probably someone which Baelish have recruited, a loyal northener.

[john666]

I don't beleive that the old woman is a Bolton ploy. Probably someone which Baelish have recruited, a loyal northener.

Even if she is a loyal northener there is no way that Brienne sent her message through her.

[The Eunuch]

That is so obvious, guys! This old woman is Varys with a wig...

Seriously, this is just an old woman from anywhere in the North who supports the Starks, that's it :laugh:

[john666]

That is so obvious, guys! This old woman is Varys with a wig...

Seriously, this is just an old woman from anywhere in the North who supports the Starks, that's it :laugh:

It is implied that the old women transferred the message from Brienne to Sansa.

But because that is impossible, the old women must be part of some other ploy.

[The Eunuch]

It is implied that the old women transferred the message from Brienne to Sansa.

But because that is impossible, the old women must be part of some other ploy.

Implied? I didn't see that. This woman first talked to Sansa before Brienne talked to the man in the inn, so she supports her on her own. She's just a supporter of the Starks and she wants to help Sansa if needed, there's no need for a ploy.

[john666]

Implied? I didn't see that. This woman first talked to Sansa before Brienne talked to the man in the inn, so she supports her on her own. She's just a supporter of the Starks and she wants to help Sansa if needed, there's no need for a ploy.

You are wrong.

This women talked to Sansa AFTER Brienne talked to the men in the inn.

[Colonel Green]

You are wrong.

This women talked to Sansa AFTER Brienne talked to the men in the inn.

He's referring to the first conversation, back in episode 503.

But you're correct, the clear implication is that the message the lady brought her is from Brienne. Which only makes sense, because if she was meant to be communicating with the old lady herself, she could just do that. The candle is only necessary if somebody outside the castle is the intended recipient, i.e., Brienne.

[john666]

He's referring to the first conversation, back in episode 503.

But you're correct, the clear implication is that the message the lady brought her is from Brienne. Which only makes sense, because if she was meant to be communicating with the old lady herself, she could just do that. The candle is only necessary if somebody outside the castle is the intended recipient, i.e., Brienne.

But if Brienne is recipient, that would have meant that her message was something like the following:

"Light a candle, and then I will somehow magically break into the castle , kill vast numbers of Bolton men, and then you will be safe" :agree:

That is absurd.

[The Eunuch]

That is absurd.

Yes that is absurd, the candle is not for Brienne : she's too far to see it, and she can't enter the castle and kill everyone to save Sansa... The candle is for the old woman, she probably wants to help Sansa flee the castle if something goes wrong.

And this old woman probably plays the role of Mance and the girls in the books, she could help Sansa escape and then get caught, while Theon does the rest, until they meet Brienne in the village.