Azor Ahai isn't/wasn't a/the good guy

[dbrandow]

Based on everything we've seen to date, George Martin isn't a fan of black and white storylines. So why should we believe that the Others are evil and Azor Ahai is good? Some reasons to think that Azor Ahai wasn't, and if reborn, won't be the good guy/girl:

- Histories are written by the winners, not the losers. The stories of Azor Ahai we are reading are written from the perspective of humans, not the Others.

- Moreover, the stories come from Asshai, and from the perspective of the followers of R'hllor. I'm convinced the question of whether the gods are real or not, and which is the "right" god, will never be answered, it'll be left intentionally vague. What is also clear is that R'hllor clearly isn't all goodness and light, not after the shadow assassin Melisandre cooks up. Azor Ahai might be the champion of R'hllor, but that's not exactly a ringing endorsement.

- He drove a sword through his wife's heart in order to make it magic. However conflicted he was about it, that's not the action of a good guy.

Personally, I think Azor Ahai reborn is Dany, who will lead dragons in a war against the Others. But Dany is a Targaryen, Fire and Blood, she can't build, she can only destroy. She's completely ineffective at ruling, she's a terrible judge of people. What she's great at is starting revolutions and leading people into wars. Throw in a couple more dragon riders, a horde of Dothraki at her back, a unified Westeros behind her and she'll have a massive army at her back, which is what she's made for, war and conquest. But she's not the good guy, even if she does free slaves.

Rhaegar knew this: its why he fathered Jon, who has both fire and ice in his bloodlines, who understands making difficult choices to save lives, who knows how to rule, who is (or is at least growing to be) a good judge of people. Jon will establish a peace between the Others and Dany. The series title tells us the theme: a song of ice and fire, not a war of ice and fire. A song implies harmony; Dany is all fire, no ice, she's a champion on one side of a deeply-nuanced conflict, not the good guy who defeats the bad guy. Rhaegar knew the world needed someone to prevent a dragon-led army from burning the world to a crisp and also to prevent the Others from establishing a frozen wasteland. You need the dragon-led army to counter the Others, but most importantly you need the negotiator to forcefully re-establish a stalemate.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

:agree: with the first two paragraphs. Not necessarily with the third.

[Balerion the kitten]

Ahhh, this bit about Jon annoys me. Rhaegar thought he found the Prince!!!!! Why would he just change his mind? No character to ever exist in ASOIAF (except maybe mel) thinks jon is azor ahai.

But other than that I agree with most of the things you said. The others will have their side as well. Like how we're made to believe the wildings are dangerous and horrible men. When actually they were just on the wrong side of the wall.

The comment about dany was unfair. Cersei is an ineffective ruler. Daenerys was in a difficult situation. She got peace even though it was war people desired. She's bad at judging situations, not people.

[bb1180]

I'm largely in agreement and made similar suggestions as this in recent days on the subject. WIsh I had more time to discuss this one this morning.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Shadowbinders are not the same thing as red priests, Mel just happens to be both.

[Lemonking]

The Others don't have to be evil, to be a threat to the survival of mankind.

[SolomonBlack]

I find most claims of not liking "black and white" stories tend to boil down to grey versus black (or maybe blacker then black) while taking potshots at white. And so it has been so far with GRRM. Not really a problem mind you, white/good is much harder to write well and good is the ultimately the death of conflict and thus a story.

Anyways Azor Ahai is well established from Nissa Nissa as not a nice and clean person, and just about everything goes in that direction as befits a figure who's other names include Elric. Even Dany who has any number of potential dark aspects.

The Others? While its possible they have understandable motivation and up in the Lands of Always Winter Adara just wants her ice lizards to be safe from the evil heat or whatever... I'm still placing my bets on that the Others are less philosophically "evil" then being simply incompatible with warm blooded life. Like predators who aren't evil exactly, just their nature is to eat meat so of course things made of meat must die. Of course one might also argue that since they show some intelligence they are in fact still ultimately evil even if not from their own perspective.

Regardless they show no signs of being something that can be made peace with and I don't much expect that to change.

[Connartist92]

To counter your point that Targaryens "can't build" and "can only destroy"....

Aegon I (the Conqueror) established the Seven Kingdoms as one unified realm.

Aegon I, Aenys I, and Maegor I (the Cruel) all had a hand in building the Red Keep.

Jaehaerys I (the Old King) out ruled the practice of "first night." He and his wife gave the NW the New Gift. He also created unified laws across the Seven Kingdoms, built drains and sewers and wells in King's Landing, and reconciled the crown with the Faith of the Seven which disbanded the Faith Militant.

Viserys I was the first king to name a female his heir. True, it definitely didn't turn out well... But that opens the door for other women in the future to succeed their fathers. The realm prospered under his rule.

Baelor I (the Blessed) pardoned all Dornish hostages after his brother Daeron I was killed. This avoided another war with Dorne.

Viserys II established a new royal mint, increased trade across the Narrow Sea, and revised the laws that Jaehaerys I had set in place during his reign. All this, and he only served for one year.

Daeron II (the Good) reformed the City Watch and finally brought Dorne into the Seven Kingdoms.

Aegon V increased the flow of food to the North during a long winter to prevent them from starving to death. He cared very much for the well-being or his people, especially the poor and weak. He wanted to lessen the power of the lords to give the people more of a voice. He granted the common people new rights and protections.

Jaehaerys II organized an army to defeat the Ninepenny Kings, which resulted in the death of the last Blackfyre Pretender, Maelys V Blackfyre. He placated the lords who were angry with Aegon V's attempts to reform laws.

Even Aerys II had good intentions in the beginning. He wanted to conquer the Stepstones to extend territory and prevent further warring there. He wanted to build a new Wall 100 leagues further north, and he wanted to build a new city on the other side of the Blackwater Rush. He also wanted to dig canals all the way to Dorne. Obviously though, none of that ever happened.

The Targaryens had a hand in many positive things throughout the history of the Seven Kingdoms. It is by no means written in stone that Dany can only destroy because of her heritage.

This is all information that can be found in the World of Ice and Fire book.

[Visenya Stark]

I wonder, if Dany is fire and Jon is ice & fire, who is the ice?

To counter your point that Targaryens "can't build" and "can only destroy"....

Aegon I (the Conqueror) established the Seven Kingdoms as one unified realm.

Aegon I, Aenys I, and Maegor I (the Cruel) all had a hand in building the Red Keep.

Jaehaerys I (the Old King) out ruled the practice of "first night." He and his wife gave the NW the New Gift. He also created unified laws across the Seven Kingdoms, built drains and sewers and wells in King's Landing, and reconciled the crown with the Faith of the Seven which disbanded the Faith Militant.

Viserys I was the first king to name a female his heir. True, it definitely didn't turn out well... But that opens the door for other women in the future to succeed their fathers. The realm prospered under his rule.

Baelor I (the Blessed) pardoned all Dornish hostages after his brother Daeron I was killed. This avoided another war with Dorne.

Viserys II established a new royal mint, increased trade across the Narrow Sea, and revised the laws that Jaehaerys I had set in place during his reign. All this, and he only served for one year.

Daeron II (the Good) reformed the City Watch and finally brought Dorne into the Seven Kingdoms.

Aegon V increased the flow of food to the North during a long winter to prevent them from starving to death. He cared very much for the well-being or his people, especially the poor and weak. He wanted to lessen the power of the lords to give the people more of a voice. He granted the common people new rights and protections.

Jaehaerys II organized an army to defeat the Ninepenny Kings, which resulted in the death of the last Blackfyre Pretender, Maelys V Blackfyre. He placated the lords who were angry with Aegon V's attempts to reform laws.

Even Aerys II had good intentions in the beginning. He wanted to conquer the Stepstones to extend territory and prevent further warring there. He wanted to build a new Wall 100 leagues further north, and he wanted to build a new city on the other side of the Blackwater Rush. He also wanted to dig canals all the way to Dorne. Obviously though, none of that ever happened.

The Targaryens had a hand in many positive things throughout the history of the Seven Kingdoms. It is by no means written in stone that Dany can only destroy because of her heritage.

This is all information that can be found in the World of Ice and Fire book.

:agree:

[EternET]

"the undead and the neverborn" =>This isn't a question of good or evil, it is a question of the battle "for life itself". Now that the Others are in the camp of death is quite clear. But that doesn't mean that the cult of R'hllor and Azor Ahaï are on the side of the living : they burn and kill and raise the dead as well. Asshai is a city without children, and Melissandre is far older than she looks. Finaly, don't forget that lucifer is the latin for "lightbringer", so depending on your take on it, it can be concidered quite evil.

[Lord Varys]

Azor Ahai just killed his wife for the greater good. Magic weapons don't come cheap, and you usually don't save humanity for free. [Well, okay, Jesus did, but that's a very bad story.]

[John Doe]

"the undead and the neverborn" =>This isn't a question of good or evil, it is a question of the battle "for life itself". Now that the Others are in the camp of death is quite clear. But that doesn't mean that the cult of R'hllor and Azor Ahaï are on the side of the living : they burn and kill and raise the dead as well. Asshai is a city without children, and Melissandre is far older than she looks. Finaly, don't forget that lucifer is the latin for "lightbringer", so depending on your take on it, it can be concidered quite evil.

But when R'hollor rises people they are actually alive and keep their personality for the most part. When the Others wake someone up much less so.

They burn people, but very few compared to the Others who kill almost everyone they come across.

Asshai doesn't have necessarily anything to do with R'hollor. and Melisandre having a long live is a point for the Red God.

If I had to choose between R'hollor and the Others I'd choose R'hollor any time.

[EternET]

But when R'hollor rises people they are actually alive and keep their personality for the most part. When the Others wake someone up much less so.

They burn people, but very few compared to the Others who kill almost everyone they come across.

Asshai doesn't have necessarily anything to do with R'hollor. and Melisandre having a long live is a point for the Red God.

If I had to choose between R'hollor and the Others I'd choose R'hollor any time.

" Fire consumes. It consumes, and when it is done there is nothing left. Nothing."(Berrick Donadrion)

It isn't true that they are "alive" and they keep their personality: theyhave holes everywhere, and they lose memory (Berick), and their personality change (lady stoneheart).

So far, R'hllor priests have killed people for, it seems bad reasons (= faith). We don't know if the Others haven't "good reasons" to kill every lives north of the wall. Also, they raise every being they kill.

Asshai seems to be where the cult and the prophecies come from. Now you're right it isn't necessary.

A long life is a point for the red god : at what cost the long life ? What if they sacrificed the missing children to get it ? What if Melissandre keeps some of "lifefire" when she makes shadow babies, like a succubus ?

My point wasn't really a choice "between" R'hllor and the Others. Just to say that R'hllor might be as bad as the Others, with human faces.

[dbrandow]

To counter your point that Targaryens "can't build" and "can only destroy"....

...

This is all information that can be found in the World of Ice and Fire book.

That's entirely fair, I did oversimplify, not all Targaryen's are mad and some of them have been effective rulers who didn't exhibit the family motto. Dany, though, while not mad, seems to be heading down a Fire and Blood path.