Eldric Shadowchaser Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Hi, I'm new here and just finished adwd.My question concerns Jon Snow's status as a member of the night's watch after his alleged death. In case of a miraculous resurrection/return or whatever, would he still be bound to his vow? I mean he was killed by his sworn brothers, so wouldn't he be free to pursue his destiny? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Welcome to the forums. By and large you will find two opinions here: I) "I want King Jon Targaryen and I want it without him breaking any words, therefore I twist everything to fit that" - he is free. II) And the ones sharing Ned's and Jon's opinion on ruleslawyering: Nope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternET Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Well the third solution is, if he or they fulfill the prophecy = destroy the others, then there's no need for the NW, and he's free(if that's really what you're reaching for). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Well the third solution is, if he or they fulfill the prophecy = destroy the others, then there's no need for the NW, and he's free(if that's really what you're reaching for). ... if the destruction can be proven beyond the slightest doubt. Which isn't going to happen. At all. 8,000 years without sightings weren't enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EternET Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 ... if the destruction can be proven beyond the slightest doubt. Which isn't going to happen. At all. 8,000 years without sightings weren't enough. Would the "reballance" of the seasons be a sufficient proof ? I find you quite definitive in your assertions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bright Blue Eyes Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 No. Because even a single, somewhat important, guy, out of literally millions, asking "what if" would be enough to keep the NW existant. Better safe than sorry and all that. Please note that any attempt by members of the forum to abolish the NW starts with "Jon needs to get out" or in very few cases "Sam needs to marry Gilly". Never with "Pyp needs to get out". It's always rooted in wish-fulfillment, not rational thought. And GRRM doesn't cater to those fairytales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Pepsi_Cupps Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Well the third solution is, if he or they fulfill the prophecy = destroy the others, then there's no need for the NW, and he's free(if that's really what you're reaching for).There's something there, though I'm not sure it's a "solution" to Jon's internal conflicts.His vow was at its core to guard the realms of "men", which mission the Night's Watch has abandoned - they guard the Seven Kingdoms against wildlings, as if that's why they're there. The bits in the vow about having no wife or kids were an ancillary requirement, added later (likely after the Night's King's adventures with his corpse bride).Jon's actions in ADWD are politically naive and lead to the Ides of Marsh, but they are morally in keeping with the vow he took.I doubt Jon would be happy to say "I was dead, vow released". It would spare him the internal conflict between his vow and whatever he feels about his discovered parentage. It would be easy to say that Jon just won't care, but that's not a very GRRM way of approaching it: Jon needs to be truly conflicted in his purposes ("the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about" is the Faulkner quote that GRRM has repeatedly brought out when discussing his characters' decisions).So, by way of pure speculation: If he is to be some sort of pivotal "hero" in the story's climax, it will likely not be a clean road for him; the difficult lose-lose situations will arise not because he doesn't want to do the right thing or the hard thing, but because doing so will involve compromising his core beliefs and becoming, at least in one light, all the things he despises (for example: oath breaker, killer, abandoner of the innocent for a greater good, etc). I'd feel robbed if everything just lined up perfectly for him and his decisions and actions are all commendable and universally just. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldric Shadowchaser Posted May 16, 2015 Author Share Posted May 16, 2015 Thanks guys, but bear in mind that he is the lord commander! Wouldn't that mean, they need to elect an new one? Wich in return would make Jon obsolete? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broke Howard Hughes Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Hi, I'm new here and just finished adwd.My question concerns Jon Snow's status as a member of the night's watch after his alleged death. In case of a miraculous resurrection/return or whatever, would he still be bound to his vow? I mean he was killed by his sworn brothers, so wouldn't he be free to pursue his destiny?Dude. I've been saying this for years. I don't care what vows I took, the moment somebody from the group tries to kill me. Consider that my resignation. Anybody who says Jon HAS to stick around because he swore an oath is insane. It may have only been a few guys involved but there is no way Jon sticks around to get the details. In his mind THE WATCH tried to kill him, not just a few guys IN the watch. There was a conspiracy against him, he has to leave. When in doubt, to quote Tony Soprano: Don't be stupid, even in the short term. Get the f... out of town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Pepsi_Cupps Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Thanks guys, but bear in mind that he is the lord commander! Wouldn't that mean, they need to elect an new one? Wich in return would make Jon obsolete?I suspect things will move very quickly at the Wall following Jon's stabbing - and not in the direction of an orderly election of a new LC. There are many times more wildlings than men of the Night's Watch at the Wall, and the wildlings had a deal with Jon. They know very well how Marsh and the rest see them. They would know Jon died because he let them cross the Wall. What would Marsh do with them now, they will wonder.Our next chapter at the Wall might well show the aftermath of a massive conflict triggered by Jon's stabbing, and there's no way the brothers are coming out on top. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Pepsi_Cupps Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 Dude. I've been saying this for years. I don't care what vows I took, the moment somebody from the group tries to kill me. Consider that my resignation. Anybody who says Jon HAS to stick around because he swore an oath is insane. It may have only been a few guys involved but there is no way Jon sticks around to get the details. In his mind THE WATCH tried to kill him, not just a few guys IN the watch. There was a conspiracy against him, he has to leave. When in doubt, to quote Tony Soprano: Don't be stupid, even in the short term. Get the f... out of town.But aren't you just saying that that's what YOU would do? Don't get me wrong, it's definitely what *I* would do too - and I'd want a goodly dose of revenge against those traitors who didn't appreciate how I was saving humanity.But is that in keeping with Jon's character? I guess death can be a pretty transformative experience, so we'll see. But, again, giving out free passes to characters to get out of moral dilemmas ("you killed me, I can go now bye"!) isn't really GRRM's way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arrow of the Morning Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 That is a interesting question. If Jon is dead his "watch is now ended", his vows are fulfilled and if he returns form the deaths he is no more a member of the Night's Watch. If it is the case I am curious to know what he would do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Broke Howard Hughes Posted May 16, 2015 Share Posted May 16, 2015 But aren't you just saying that that's what YOU would do? Don't get me wrong, it's definitely what *I* would do too - and I'd want a goodly dose of revenge against those traitors who didn't appreciate how I was saving humanity.But is that in keeping with Jon's character? I guess death can be a pretty transformative experience, so we'll see. But, again, giving out free passes to characters to get out of moral dilemmas ("you killed me, I can go now bye"!) isn't really GRRM's way.He stuck around earlier for honor's sake, but seeing as how some of the same brothers he swore to stand beside and fight with sought his death. Would any brother in black actually try to keep him from leaving. I don't even ginkgo this will be a major point in the books. If he survives, I would imagine they'd almost expect him to leave. But yeah, this is all peppered by MY life experiences and feelings, not Jon's. Maybe he does stay, but to what end? To live out the rest of his life wondering if he'll be murdered in his sleep? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eldric Shadowchaser Posted May 16, 2015 Author Share Posted May 16, 2015 Maybe the question should be asked if he remains Jon Snow or if he is reborn as someone else (you know who I mean) like Gandalfs transformation in LotR. :D Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hodorisfaclessman Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 grmm likes the inner dilema stuff so who knows one of the themes we see are how oaths + traditions can put someone in conflict with that characters moral compass (jamie, brienne, ned, renly, stannis , etc etc) jon snow may abandon the watch again to better serve the watch or at least serve the true functon of the watch .....he may break free so that he can better be the shield that guards the realms of men knowing well hel be hated for it and not fully being comfortable with it himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night's Princess Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 imo if he does live on it will be as Ghost, and he won't stay as a member of the Watch because he's a literal ghost wolf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rohed Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 I honestly think it was a vision Jon had looking in the fire ... It would be a kick in the pants I know but I don't know why under it fitting ... The whole letter tells to much for the present time... Either that or it all isn't the watch as much as the queen who set this in motion. I would think Jon would try and figure out what happend , how and why .. Not look for a loophole about a vow. He sees himself as someone who can better the realm of man. And he knows the threat waiting at the wall. That being said he would want to avenge his family.... And he will sit on a it, but not think of a technicality out as much as being persuaded by another opportunity to leave ( king of North /Robb's will ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fire Eater Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Jon would remain true to his vows, and resume as LC of the NW. He knows nothing is more important than dealing with the LN 2.0. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Joe the Unknighted Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Well consider that no one may want him at the night's watch any more. If Bowen Marsh's party wins whatever rumble their betrayal results in then even if Jon survives or is brought back than they may not want him. There are changes coming to Westeros. Dany and Jon are both agents of change. Things will not be done at the end of A Dream for Spring the same way they have always been done. Change is coming. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord_Pepsi_Cupps Posted May 17, 2015 Share Posted May 17, 2015 Well consider that no one may want him at the night's watch any more. If Bowen Marsh's party wins whatever rumble their betrayal results in then even if Jon survives or is brought back than they may not want him. There are changes coming to Westeros. Dany and Jon are both agents of change. Things will not be done at the end of A Dream for Spring the same way they have always been done. Change is coming. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=n4RjJKxsamQ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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