Alternatives to sending John to the NW

[lordHodor]

Okay, Robert convinces Eddard to leave his wife in Winterfell and come to KL to party.

What would have been the alternatives to sending Jon to the night´s watch for life?

1) tell Catelyn that wild story about how Jon is not really his son. It would eliminate all the hatred.

2) Send him to squire for one of his bannermen or one of their knights. Most would welcome the well-loved bastard of their lord. Plus Jon is actually skilled and educated. This might lead to a knighthood and marriage opportunities for Jon.

Maybe Howland Reed?

3) Take him to KL, but not to court, and organise an apprenticeship for him, so he can learn some craft (Remember Gendry?)

4) Send him to the citadel. House Stark can only profit from this.

Of course, 2) seems like the most sensible approach.

So why does Eddard send Jon to the wall?

He must know from Benjen, that the watch has become little more than a penal colony, and winter will be hard there.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Because Jon wanted to go.

Anyway, Jon would never become a knight. He believes in the Old Gods and for the usual route to knighthood, he'd need to follow the Seven.

[lordHodor]

He believes in the Old Gods and for the usual route to knighthood, he'd need to follow the Seven.

Ah, I didn´t know that.

Isn´t there some way for northeners? Does e.g. Jorah Mormont worship the seven?

[Greymoon]

Because Jon wanted to go.

I'm not certain he did, after all. I think Benjen's words to him actually changed his mind... or, he may have wanted to go, but not right away. At the very least, Jon was angry about the decision, so something happened that we are not privy to.

Bran had been left behind with Jon and the girls and Rickon. But Rickon was only a baby and the girls were only girls and Jon and his wolf were nowhere to be found. Bran did not look for him very hard. He thought Jon was angry at him. Jon seemed to be angry at everyone these days. Bran did not know why. He was going with Uncle Ben to the Wall, to join the Night's Watch. That was almost as good as going south with the king. Robb was the one they were leaving behind, not Jon.

Game of Thrones, Chapter 8, Bran II.

[KINGpanther]

Woulda been interesting to of seen Jon in Kings Landing, protecting Arya when the shit hit the fan, ofcourse that would eliminate Arya's arc.

[ckongo]

Because Jon wanted to go.

Which makes me think he really was too young and ignorant to grasp what he was getting himself into. I'm not sure why anyone would voluntarily want to join a group consisting of mostly criminals to guard a wall at the freezing end of the world from wildlings; including taking vows never to have sex or marry, have children, return to your family, etc. All this is done without even getting respect from hardly anyone barring the oddity like Eddard Stark.

There had to better options for Jon, but that may require him actually staying a little while longer at Winterfell before pursuing them; something that bitch Catelyn wasn't going to put up with.

[Mokymok]

Fostered with some vassal. The Hornwood bastard was fostered at Deepwood Motte, so I guess is not that uncommon. Surely the Great Lord's bastard could have been easily place somewhere just to gain the Lord's favor.

[Bright Blue Eyes]

Ah, I didn´t know that.

Isn´t there some way for northeners? Does e.g. Jorah Mormont worship the seven?

Getting the honorific for valor in battle and the like.

Jorah Mormont doesn't worship the Seven, he was knighted for his valor at Pyke, sometimes during his thirties. But that doesn't matter.

I'm not certain he did, after all. I think Benjen's words to him actually changed his mind... or, he may have wanted to go, but not right away. At the very least, Jon was angry about the decision, so something happened that we are not privy to.

Game of Thrones, Chapter 8, Bran II.

Jon was angry about Benjen and Ned trying to talk him out of it. Check the Jon chapter earlier. He's arguing with Benjen that he wants to go and right now, while Benjen tries to talk sense into him, at least to wait a couple years.

[EternET]

1) I am not sure it would have "faded away" this quickly. Second, the "dragonspawn's blood" thirsty king Robert is right here in the castle, if she still feels hatred towrads Ned...or Jon.

2) Yeah, why not a little fostering ? Why not in a vassal house, or in te Eyrrie where he might meet and befriend some of Robert's bastards ? Well maybe Ned had that in mind, same for Robb, but as he lost his familly as he was fostered, couldn't bring himself to it.

3)Bastards in KL are shunned. Besides, if the ressemblance with a "certain prince" comes to get noticed, Robert isn't too far away.

4) Well I guess the argument is: too far away for Ned to visit him and talk to him "one day".

[Greymoon]

Okay, Robert convinces Eddard to leave his wife in Winterfell and come to KL to party.

What would have been the alternatives to sending Jon to the night´s watch for life?

1) tell Catelyn that wild story about how Jon is not really his son. It would eliminate all the hatred.

2) Send him to squire for one of his bannermen or one of their knights. Most would welcome the well-loved bastard of their lord. Plus Jon is actually skilled and educated. This might lead to a knighthood and marriage opportunities for Jon.

Maybe Howland Reed?

3) Take him to KL, but not to court, and organise an apprenticeship for him, so he can learn some craft (Remember Gendry?)

4) Send him to the citadel. House Stark can only profit from this.

Of course, 2) seems like the most sensible approach.

So why does Eddard send Jon to the wall?

He must know from Benjen, that the watch has become little more than a penal colony, and winter will be hard there.

1) Catelyn would want to know the truth, Ned doesn't strike me as a good lier, so that option is out.

2) Jon looks very much a Stark and was raised in Winterfell, although he's a bastard. Some ambitious northerner might have used Jon in some sort of power play with Winterfell. Howland Reed would be a good option though.

3) the reason Ned doesn't take Jon to KL, is not because Jon is a bastard, imo. Many high born bastards manage to make a name for themselves in KL. Jon is not a bad sword, for his age and he's as well educated as any high born lad.... so he could have found his place in the capital. However, here again, there's the possibility he could have been used by some ambitious lord against Ned and/or Robb. It's also likely that Ned feared someone in KL would see something in Jon that wasn't 100% Stark.

In the north, few people, if any, knew what Rhaegar Targaryen looked like, in the south, many would still remember the silver prince. We are told Jon looks a Stark - but how much of that is due to the ignorance of his true parentage? Might it be, that in spite of his brown hair, grey eyes, and long face, he does bear some similarities to his father? The only person who could really have told us if Jon looked or didn't look like a Targ, was Maester Aemon - conveniently blind.

4) Jon doesn't really have the profile for that, he wasn't very studious before becoming LC...

[Veltigar]

Letting Jon join the NW has always been a dick move of Eddard for me. It's the biggest (perhaps even the only) faux-pass he committed, but it is a major dick move. Aside from the fact that allowing a fifteen-year-old to swear lifelong allegiance to an organisation in disrepair like the NW is a show of poor taste, I think letting Jon go without informing him about his heritage is a major no-no.

He should have postponed Jon's departure for the NW. Perhaps send him to Stannis on Dragonstone, or the Manderleys or something. If he really wanted Jon to go far away, he could have even send him abroad for a few years to travel the Free Cities. It would not have been difficult to convince Jon that, for the next few years at least, he should follow in the footsteps of Rodrik Stark or the Company of the Rose. Taste of life in Essos proper, participate in battle, love, learn about the lands and if he came back he could still have joined the NW. It would have been pretty cheap to for Eddard. All Jon needed was a bodyguard or two (experienced enough to further improve Jon's martial skills), a good suit of armour, a ship and some spending money.

[Connartist92]

Because Jon wanted to go.

Anyway, Jon would never become a knight. He believes in the Old Gods and for the usual route to knighthood, he'd need to follow the Seven.

I wouldn't say never. It would've been possible, just not probable.

[Miley the Monstrous]

Man, Jon in Oldtown would've been fun. Imagine him joining the clique of Lazy Leo, Sarella, and faux Pate.

Another option, I think, could've been marrying him to a prominent wildling girl (say Val) to set the example to his bannermen that the integration of the wildlings into the North is a-okay. Then Jon and Val could've shacked up in the Gift, which Ned wanted to settle anyway, and more wildlings would follow suit, depleting Mance's ranks.

[RoamingRonin]

Ned could have taken Jon to court and the boy would not have faced a lot of discrimination. We've met several highborn bastards and people treat them well enough. Ned is a highlord and the Hand of the King, Jon would have been given some level of respect. It's not as if people would have spit on him in the streets.

The issue is that Ned expected people would treat Jon like dirt so if/when they did treat Jon like dirt, Ned would simply let it happen and comfort Jon later. It doesn't occur to him that he could flaunt his power and authority as Hand and highlord.

[OmnomnomPomelo]

4) Send him to the citadel. House Stark can only profit from this.

How would House Stark profit from Jon being a maester?

If Ned sent Jon to the Citadel, then Jon could become a maester and later sent somewhere. Somewhere where the Citadel sends him and there he has to serve the Lord faithfully. In this case only Cat wouldn't bitch against Jon.

[King Arthurzico]

Jon definitely wants to go. Although, I do agree that he was a little young for it, going to the Wall may not be as bad as we think. At least I don't think the people of the North see things this way.

Benjen chose to go there, so did Jeor and so did Waymar Royce. Jon chose to make the vows after he knew what the Wall was.

If you think about it, if it wasn't for the Other coming back after 8000 years, Jon's life wouldn't be that bad. Edd didn't know the risks. He probably thought Jon would live his life as a ranger, killing wildlings, living in a castle with stewards, visiting WF at big events and if some King beyond the Wall tried to invade Robb would just summon the Northern army to aid them

If I were Ned I would probably send him to one of his bannerman's castle. But I don't think letting him go to the Wall was inconceivable or a blatant mistake. The kid wanted to go, after all.

[TimJames]

Because Jon wanted to go.

Anyway, Jon would never become a knight. He believes in the Old Gods

That's no barrier to knighthood. Rodrik Cassel was a knight and he believed in the Old Gods.

[aquintus]

So why does Eddard send Jon to the wall?

He didn't. Jon asked to go to the Wall, and Ned let him.

[Greymoon]

Jon was angry about Benjen and Ned trying to talk him out of it. Check the Jon chapter earlier. He's arguing with Benjen that he wants to go and right now, while Benjen tries to talk sense into him, at least to wait a couple years.

Agree to disagree. I'm aware that he argued with Benjen about it, but he was also drunk at the time. I think it's possible that Benjen's words to him made him rethink that decision, or that he wasn't 100% certain anymore, and so he was angry because in the end, the choice was forced on him.

I don't think Ned tried to talk him out of it. On the road north, Jon thinks that Benjen was the only one to be honest with him, about the watch. Ned didn't say anything about it. In fact, after Luwin's intervention, Ned quickly yields and admits that sending Jon to the wall is not a such a terrible idea after all.

There's many instance where GRRM has purposely left out some scenes in the books. He's even stated that in an SSM iirc. At the wall for ex. there's some meetings between Jon and Alys, and Jon and Val that we are not privy to. Similarly, we don't know exactly what Jon and Tormund talked about for two hours before the ides of marsh took place.

iirc, there's an SSM where GRRM claims that he'd started writing the first book with the idea to have one chapter/month. He quickly realized that wasn't possible, but I do think that GOT is generally paced faster than the books that followed. So the time lapse between each chapter is bigger than in later books. Jon had the argument with Benjen at the feast, on the day of the King's arrival. Bran's chapter takes place near the time the King means to depart from Winterfell. Bran's fall delays that departure, but Robert wanted to eat wild boar for his last night in Winterfell, so that's why they go hunting.

imo, there is at least two weeks between these two events. The King wouldn't travel that far north only to stay a few days....That's plenty of time for Jon to be angry about something else that we did not read about, and that concerns his joining the NW.

We also have to look at the context. When Jon talked to Benjen about joining the watch, he didn't yet know that Arya, Sansa (Bran) and Ned were going to Kingslanding. Robert had just made his offer, and Ned had yet to agree. What says that Jon didn't want to go to Kingsalnding, after he learned that his father was to be hand of the King? Jon mostly wanted to make a name for himself, and I suspect, to be away from Catelyn. He thought the NW was the way to achieve that, but with the possibility of traveling to KL suddenly presenting itself, he might have changed his mind.

[Not a kneeler]

Ned sent Jon to the NW because it was the one place where he would be safe from Robert Baratheon if Jon's true parentage was ever discovered. I always hated it and wished he could have sent him to White Harbor instead until I figured it out.

Jon was not opposed to it. And we have to remember that Ned thought the NW was safe. He dismissed the stories about the Others.