Astronomy of Planetos: Children of the Dawn, Part One

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

I think magic is probably a lot like guns. In an ideal world no one would have them, but in a world where they can exist they will exist, and if one person has one then other people are going to need them---and need to know how to use them well, and as safely as possible. Though once guns/magic enter the picture, "safety" becomes an extremely relative term.

If magic is part and parcel of the world of Planetos--which is seems to be, since even Those Who Sing the Songs of Earth have magic--it may be impossible to get rid of. Kind of like how we on Earth can't change the laws of physics to make gunpowder not work. Humanity may just have to learn how to handle it better.

Ha, maybe the endgame is the United Nations of Planetos passing a comprehensive magic-regulation bill. :-P

*note: this is not intended to start a gun debate. Sub in "nuclear weapons" or whatever you want in the above analogy.*

I get the analogy, but I think there's a crucial difference that you point out in the end. Magic isn't like a gun, but it could be seen as a nuclear weapon. Guns are (for better or worse) fairly "democratic" in that everyone could get one and use it, only gun-control laws prevent that. Not only are nuclear weapons destructive on a different order of magnitude, You also can't make your own nuclear bomb because it's exceedingly complex and expensive, and requires rare materials (although there's alway talk about people finding plans on the internets...).

And even when used for peaceful ends, the existence of magic is the problem, because it's use depends on the person using it. Much like a civilian nuclear reactor that produces electricity, but can also be used as a source of fuel for a nuclear bomb.

Unlike a gun, which while dangerous can be held relatively "safely", there is no way to make the nuclear option "safe". It's a sword without a hilt (the sheer level of destruction it unleashes, and the fact that it's hugely dangerous even if you don't plan on using it as a weapon).

[Mithras]

Well if you're thinking about whether it's "evil" or not, it's telegraphed that skinchangin is an abomination when done to a human. Whether or not you think it's also evil when done to an animal is another thing, depending on how differently you think of animals. In all cases, there seems to be an initial "breaking in" of the animal to accustom it to being skinchanged, suggesting struggle and it being unwanted.

It's not exactly like domesticating an animal either... You are literally possessing its body for your purposes.

That is why it has a moral code. As far as the shadowbinding is concerned, I don't think shadowbinders have any restriction to the atrocities they commit.

Haggon said that only certain species of animals should be skinchanged. And for wolves, he equated the bond to a life-long marriage. So, there is some sense of mutualism there. But Varamyr was really an abomination who broke the beasts against their will and used animals that are not supposed to be skinchanged.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

That is why it has a moral code. As far as the shadowbinding is concerned, I don't think shadowbinders have any restriction to the atrocities they commit.

Haggon said that only certain species of animals should be skinchanged. And for wolves, he equated the bond to a life-long marriage. So, there is some sense of mutualism there. But Varamyr was really an abomination who broke the beasts against their will and used animals that are not supposed to be skinchanged.

What I'm saying is that the moral code is arbitrary - which animals are and are not "supposed" to be skinchanged? It sounds like dogs are "easy" because they're used to humans, and wolves are not so far from dogs. But that goes to how easy or difficult it is to do it, not whether it's wrong to force yourself into another being's skin.

[Mithras]

What I'm saying is that the moral code is arbitrary - which animals are and are not "supposed" to be skinchanged? It sounds like dogs are "easy" because they're used to humans, and wolves are not so far from dogs. But that goes to how easy or difficult it is to do it, not whether it's wrong to force yourself into another being's skin.

The ease is very much related to the willingness of the animal. Dogs are the easiest because most of them want to be bonded with humans. That is their nature. Generally, adult animals (unless they are dogs) would never share their skins unless they are forced to do so. Varamyr was breaking the animals and that was abomination. Starks got their wolves as puppies. They practically became their mothers. So, even without skinchanging, those puppies got used to them and developed some sort of bond with them. We cannot claim that the Starks are forcing their will on their wolves. The wolves accepted the Starks to their pack and willingly shared their skins.

A similar story is told about the Casterlys. Corlos who discovered the Casterly Rock slew a lion that preyed on his village but when he found the kittens, he spared them because of mercy. The old gods appreciated it and led him to the gold mines beneath the Rock. I think this legend is a distorted version of the reality, which was probably about a greenseeing CotF who was wearing the skins of those great lions that were attacking the First Men. The greenseer was eventually slain by the First Men but Corlos spared his daughters and took them as wives. There are lots of examples of this, one of which is from the Warg King and the Starks in the North.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

The ease is very much related to the willingness of the animal. Dogs are the easiest because most of them want to be bonded with humans. That is their nature. Generally, adult animals (unless they are dogs) would never share their skins unless they are forced to do so. Varamyr was breaking the animals and that was abomination. Starks got their wolves as puppies. They practically became their mothers. So, even without skinchanging, those puppies got used to them and developed some sort of bond with them. We cannot claim that the Starks are forcing their will on their wolves. The wolves accepted the Starks to their pack and willingly shared their skins.

A similar story is told about the Casterlys. Corlos who discovered the Casterly Rock slew a lion that preyed on his village but when he found the kittens, he spared them because of mercy. The old gods appreciated it and led him to the gold mines beneath the Rock. I think this legend is a distorted version of the reality, which was probably about a greenseeing CotF who was wearing the skins of those great lions that were attacking the First Men. The greenseer was eventually slain by the First Men but Corlos spared his daughters and took them as wives. There are lots of examples of this, one of which is from the Warg King and the Starks in the North.

I hadn't thought of that before, but I really like that notion. So the lions of Casterly Rock originally skinchanged lions, just as the wolves of Winterfell can now skinchange wolves. Nice. I've been thinking lately about how many animal sigils might actually point to a past when members of the house skinchanged that animal. Past Mormonts skinchanging bears seems pretty certain, and we're basically told in the Worldbook that House Crane once skinchanged.

I don't have a very strong opinion about the morality of skinchanging, other than the obvious rule of thumb, "if it's really hard and seems to cause distress don't do it." Although by that logic warging Hodor doesn't seem very abominable. Bran senses that Hodor doesn't like it much, but he doesn't resist and Bran slips into his skin very easily.

[Durran Durrandon]

I knew there was another monkey tail incident, but I couldn't remember it.

So I just reaaaalllllyyyyyyy want to know what monkey tails signify to the Yi Tish.

Perhaps it really is something as prosaic as her being a hybrid experiment who led a kind of "hybrids' revolt" against the BSE. They now wear monkey tails in her honour (as she IS what ended the LN in their stories). It might have been such a revolt that overthrew him (and what he turned the GEotD into). Was her name Yin Tar? That seems to be Yi Tish name for the Lightbringer/Shadowchaser character.

And if she were a hybrid, she of course would have an origin story in a kind of conception and birth, making her a not impossible Lightbringer reference... ;)

In fact, if dragonlords were a dragon/human hybrid created to allow BSE to control dragons, making th dragonlords a kind of a weapon in the hands of the BSE, then it might make sense that they participated in any revolt, as the most powerful weapon.

Perhaps that's what hides behind the strange story of the "ancient Ashaii" teaching the Valyrians about dragons and then "disappearing" from history.

More interesting would be to find out that the FM or the Andals are in some way descended from a hybrid population.

I keep meaning to go back to this. While the idea of the Valyrians being a hybrid- servant race that control dragons for the BSE is an interesting one, it goes against themes I think are present in the text, regarding the Targaryans and Daenerys specifically being descendants of the GEotD's emperors.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I keep meaning to go back to this. While the idea of the Valyrians being a hybrid- servant race that control dragons for the BSE is an interesting one, it goes against themes I think are present in the text, regarding the Targaryans and Daenerys specifically being descendants of the GEotD's emperors.

No, actually it doesn't. Because the Bloodstone Emperor himself was one of the Great Empire of the Dawn's emperors.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

I think DD meant that, if the Valyrians were a servant race, that conflicts with Dany/Targs having emperor blood. Not because they aren't connected to GEotD but because of the class difference.

[LmL]

I tend to agree with Mithras's speculations about the Valyians either discovering GEoTD / BSE magical knowledge stored in a glass candle, or through CoSW involvement in proto-Valyria. We don't know if dark mages have lived in Asshai since the LN disaster or if they came back there at some later point, but it does seem like the CoSW has existed all that time, somewhere and somehow.

[Durran Durrandon]

No, actually it doesn't. Because the Bloodstone Emperor himself was one of the Great Empire of the Dawn's emperors.

What Blind Beth said. I think the Targs are the direct descendants of the Amethyst Empress, who of course was the sister of the BSE. Thus they aren't descendants of servants.

[Mithras]

Great Other is Amethyst Empress in exile.

Who is with me?

[LmL]

You're such a Dany-hater Mithras ;)

[Durran Durrandon]

There is no Great Other.

[Blind Beth the Cat Lady]

Great Other is Amethyst Empress in exile.

Who is with me?

Sorry, I've already jumped on the "Great Other was the forgotten Sapphire Emperor in exile" ship. :-P

(Although it's a ship I built myself and I'm a nube at ship-building.)

[Mithras]

You're such a Dany-hater Mithras ;)

Bloodstone Emperor seems awfully like a scapegoat ;)

[Lady Blizzardborn]

Oh, sorry. I totally misunderstood!

But...what if the Emperors' line married into a servant race? *scratches head* Too crackpot?

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

Bloodstone Emperor seems awfully like a scapegoat ;)

Look, it would be EXTREMELY unlikely for this morally complex story to have a morally clean beginning. He's presented as just plain bad, so he is bound to have had some good reasons.

Always makes me think of Aegon II and Rhaenyra, and how the strength of the claim is meaningless when you look at the level of damage the conflict brought. And it's all about how the story is told.

[LmL]

Bloodstone Emperor seems awfully like a scapegoat ;)

I consider the twist being that AA was the bad guy. The Bloodstone E identity IS the twist, I don't see another twist as making a lot of sense. I'm into the idea that the BsE / AA may have redeemed himself in some manner, but I simply won't hear of Nissa Nissa's corpse being drug through the mud. She took a bullet to save the earth and she's suffered enough. ;)

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I consider the twist being that AA was the bad guy. The Bloodstone E identity IS the twist, I don't see another twist as making a lot of sense. I'm into the idea that the BsE / AA may have redeemed himself in some manner, but I simply won't hear of Nissa Nissa's corpse being drug through the mud. She took a bullet to save the earth and she's suffered enough. ;)

In order to right what he made wrong, he had to sacrifice what he loved most. Perhaps the most tragic love story of all time.

[Lord_Pepsi_Cupps]

As for Valyrians as a hybrid servant race.

Well, it would be lame if the "greatest culture the world has known" as far as we're aware (the Vals) actually do descended from the Emperors of the original greatest empire. There's no surprise, the silver-haired purple-eyed demi-gods are truly just a few steps above the rest. Uncomfortable conclusions.

Much more satisfying to reveal they began as an "abomination" - a hybrid slave race meant to be used to control dragons.

And a lot is made of the pale-fire-sword people Dany sees. A very very lot. They may not be her ancestors, but the people who bred her ancestors with dragons; she's now their last remaining weapon so they urge her on.