Fragile Bird Posted March 16, 2016 Author Share Posted March 16, 2016 While I was looking up one of the archaic words used by Wolfe in the book, a link showed up for the first time that is a list of the meaning of many (if not all) the arcane words used by Wolfe in the book. Here is the link: http://www.pannis.com/SFDG/specific-Shadow-2.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted March 16, 2016 Author Share Posted March 16, 2016 I don't know if it's because I'm tired, or a little drunk, but this has been the hardest chapter to summarize so far. I know that when I finished the previous chapter I was going to do this one as well, but when I tried I just said ugh, and said to myself leave it for the next day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Better make sure you are sober for the next few chapters. You did well for this chapter (thanks for keeping up with the summaries!) but only gets more confusing for a while. An onegar is some kind of wild donkey. But Wolfe writes in one of the appendices that he assumes that the animals whose names he "translates" as "mounts", "destriers" etc. must be similar but much more swift and powerful than our horses etc. and it seems an open question whether they are special enhanced breeds or crossed with extrasolar species. On the cover of my copy of the book with vol.3+4 there is an animal pictured that looks similar to a camel, only at least 5 times as big. (Although some explicit alien species are mentioned as well and they seem far more alien and different from the domestic animals.) The anecdote with the angels illustrates the reckless behavior of many young people. They don't really believe they can die... Thanks for the link to the words list. "Domnicellae", the honorific for the Pelerines is probably made up from Latin. It means something like "dominus/a cellae" Lord/Lady/Mistress of the cell/temple/sanctuary. Wolfe sometimes just takes words from other languages, so it should not surprise that a few are not in the OED. E.g. "lazaret(t)" is common in German for a military hospital or infirmary (sometimes makeshift in the field) and in French and Italian it means a quarantine station or ship (this seems the original meaning, the name is derived from Lazarus who was resurrected by Christ according to the gospels). Wolfe must have had a good book on palaentology and ancient fauna. But we have google, so Metamynodon is not made up but some extinct beast similar to both a rhinoceros and a hippotamus... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metamynodon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jo498 Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 "Also, how exactly is it that people seem to carry physical/biological characteristics of their "class" i.e. the tallness of the exultants?" I thought that this was more or less the breeding of many millenia but it could also have been genetic modification. In any case it seems that exultants (and the other higher classes like armigers to a lesser degree) are very tall and slender, pale-skinned and the women have "heart-shaped" faces and large eyes (often in uncommon colors like Thecla's violet eyes). Severian is always described as taller than average (although not as tall as some exultants we meet), Thecla comments on his fair skin (and like Thecla (and most of Tolkien's Noldor) he also has the "snowwhite" combination of pale skin and dark hair). He is also very handsome (even discounting possible exaggerations how easily women fall for him, and that most of them have another reason to flirt or seduce), men remark on his good and "upperclass" looks as well; that's probably what Agia means when she says he looks like a nobleman. Dorcas is very pretty and her eyes seem of a special sky-blue but she is rather shortish and slender (she is frequently said to look almost like a child), supposedly not as curvy as e.g. Agia. So the main exultant features she lacks is height and the distinctive face shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mavoras Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 8 hours ago, Fragile Bird said: First post! Welcome to Westeros, Mavoras! Have you been a lurker? Feel free to post some more and post often! Are you reading the book as well? Thank you Fragile Bird! Yes i was a lurker here. I have read the Book of the New Sun, which is my favorite book and have read it more than once. I can offer some insights on the themes and the true plot if you'd like. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilbur Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 2 hours ago, Mavoras said: Thank you Fragile Bird! Yes i was a lurker here. I have read the Book of the New Sun, which is my favorite book and have read it more than once. I can offer some insights on the themes and the true plot if you'd like. Yes, please. This is as opaque a series as can be, so any illumination will be welcome. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mavoras Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 Well, the main themes are: * Rebirth: The first clue is the "Ressurection and Death" title from the first chapter, Urth and Sun are dying and looking for renewal, Severian will later want to change his life (also symbolized by his drowning and coming back, which also foreshadows his future role). The name of the Autarch's throne is the Phoenix Throne. The Phoenix dies and rises again from its ashes (which foreshadows the darker role of the New Sun). Also, "All men love what they destroy..." that Severian says. Rebirth has a high cost. * Redemption: This relates to rebirth as for a Christian one has to 'kill' his former self to redeem. Severian's quest, among other things, is also a quest for personal redemption. Also Terminus Est could be seen as Severian's personal cross that he has to carry all the way to Thrax. It is certainly cross-shaped. * Man degenerating to beasts: see zooanthropes and other examples in the future parts of the novel (The Book of the New sun is one novel for me, consisting of 4 volumes), as well as artificial things that elevate to man-status (i.e., Jonas). * Free will vs Determinism: How much controll (i.e., free will) has Severian over his destiny and how much his path is determined by the aliens (who look like angelic beeings)? * The power of Faith and of symbols to focus that faith through: The First Severian failed, the second succeeds because he believes in something; he has the Claw of the Conciliator with him (the first one didn't). Foreshaded in the first chapter with: We believe that we invent symbols. The truth is that they invent us; we are their creatures, shaped by their hard, defining edges. When soldiers take their oath they are given a coin, an asimi stamped with the profile of the Autarch. Their acceptance of that coin is their acceptance of the special duties and burdens of military life—they are soldiers from that moment, though they may know noth- ing of the management of arms. I did not know that then, but it is a profound mistake to believe that we must know of such things to be influenced by them, and in fa to believe so is to believe in the most debased and superstitious kind of magic. The would-be sorcerer alone has faith in the efficacy of pure knowledge; rational people know that things a of themselves or not at all. Main symbols: * The Sun: Even shadows are used as variations of this theme (i.e., The Shadow of the Torturer). It is the life-giver, also a wordplay on Son (i.e., New Son). * Water: Used as a symbol of cleansing and rebirth. * Roses: the Claw has a relation to roses that I don't want to spoil. Also, remember the engravings on the masoleum. * Plants I am sure I have omitted many other themes and symbols as this is a dense work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted March 16, 2016 Author Share Posted March 16, 2016 I have read five chapters ahead so that my summarizations can be guided by what's ahead. Lot's of fun! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 4 hours ago, Wilbur said: Yes, please. This is as opaque a series as can be, so any illumination will be welcome. I actually think Long Sun is even more Opaque. o.O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
matt b Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 51 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said: I actually think Long Sun is even more Opaque. o.O Which I still find bizarre...Long Sun is really straightforward. You might be due for a reread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted March 16, 2016 Author Share Posted March 16, 2016 1 minute ago, matt b said: Which I still find bizarre...Long Sun is really straightforward. You might be due for a reread. That may have been tongue-in-cheek.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted March 16, 2016 Share Posted March 16, 2016 No I meant it. But I have yet to read short sun, which I'm told makes all of long sun make sense. A long sun re read would fascinating if you guys get there. Or Latro. I fucking love Latro in the mist. as long as I'm ranting and waiting for my ride, doesnt Wolfe gave a degree in etymology? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted March 16, 2016 Author Share Posted March 16, 2016 5 minutes ago, Darth Richard II said: No I meant it. But I have yet to read short sun, which I'm told makes all of long sun make sense. A long sun re read would fascinating if you guys get there. Or Latro. I fucking love Latro in the mist. as long as I'm ranting and waiting for my ride, doesnt Wolfe gave a degree in etymology? I don't see any book with the name Latro in it, but there's a book called Soldier in the Mist - is that what you mean? A quick look at his Wikipedia page doesn't say anything about an etymology degree, it does say he has an engineering degree and, a bit of trivia, was involved in creating the machine that makes Pringle potato chips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BookWyrm2 Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 3 minutes ago, Fragile Bird said: I don't see any book with the name Latro in it, but there's a book called Soldier in the Mist - is that what you mean? A quick look at his Wikipedia page doesn't say anything about an etymology degree, it does say he has an engineering degree and, a bit of trivia, was involved in creating the machine that makes Pringle potato chips. Latro is the narrator of Soldier of the Mist as well as its sequels. They're extremely good! As a fun aside: I once saw a panel on "Egocentrism and Creativity" (one of the Readercons) where each speaker was to introduce themselves with their name and an interesting fact about themselves. Gene Wolfe was on it and said (as he scratched his back with his cane), "My name's Gene Wolfe and I basically invented Pringles." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 Latro in the mist is what my omnibus of the first two novels is called. And I take it back what I said, Soldier of Sidon is his most opaque. I understood nothing that happens in that book Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mavoras Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 Being opaque does not equal best or deepest. If you want to read Wolfe at his most opaque I recommend "The Solar Labyrinth." It is just a short story. Link to the story: http://ultan.org.uk/a-solar-labyrinth/ Mavoras Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilbur Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 1 hour ago, BookWyrm2 said: Latro is the narrator of Soldier of the Mist as well as its sequels. They're extremely good! Correction, Solider of the Mist and Soldier of Arete are terrific. Soldier of Sidon? Maybe I need a guided re-read to agree with you there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 I uh, didn't say being opaque made something the best. Soldier of Sidon reads like it was supposed to have a sequel, then didn't. Or we are meant to think it is? It's not bad, but like, without getting into spoilers, its confusing as hell. Oh if we want to count short stories there are some that are just batshit crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fragile Bird Posted March 17, 2016 Author Share Posted March 17, 2016 Chapter XIX, The Botanic Gardens Severian and Agia leave the Cathedral and head off for the Botanical Gardens on foot. Agia says they need to go down the Adamnian Steps (I assume this is just a play on Adam, I could find no cross reference) which criss-cross down a hillside to the bank of the river Gyoll, the glass houses of the Botanical Gardens being on an island near the bank. It is lined with statues of eponyms [persons, places or things for whom or which something is named, like Elizabeth l is the eponym for the Elizabethan era]. BTW, the Gjöll is the river that separates the living from the dead in Norse mythology, and is associated with the boulder the monster wolf Fenrir is chained to. As Severian walks down the steps, he can see the towers of The Citadel on the other side of the river. As they walk to the BG, Severian and Agia talk about a number of things. Severian asks who the priestesses dressed in red are, the Pelerines. They wear red for the descending light of the New Sun, and they travel around the country with their Cathedral (which I think is a large tent) setting up wherever they wish. They claim to possess the most valuable relic in existence, The Claw of the Conciliator, so the red may also be for the Wounds of the Claw as well. Severian says he didn't know the Conciliator had claws, and Agia tells him it's a jewel. They then have a somewhat complex discussion about the importance of The Conciliator that reminds me of the attitudes people have about Jesus, that perhaps he was a legend who lived or did not live thousands of years before, but perhaps he isn't dead and could be around the next bend of the street or the next turn of the week. And, he's an alien: "we either confirm or deny that he was in contact with our race in the remote past". He was by definition the Master of Power, which means the transcendence of reality, and includes the negation of time. [Meaning...what? He was a time traveller?] The Claw is reputed to cause miraculous cures, forgive injuries, raises the dead, draws new races of beings from the soil, purifies lust, and so on. Agia laughs and Severian says she's laughing at him, and she says no, she is laughing about the sun which turns a woman's skin brown (and if exhultants are very white, turning brown is probably quite bad) and causes wrinkles. Severian can see her flaws in the sunlight, but this only makes her more dear to him. I am assuming she is older than him, from the way he talks about her flaws. He tells her he loves her, but she says she doesn't love him because he could be dead by the end of the day. She also tells Severian she and her brother are not rich, and she is not any officer's mistress, and she only decided to do the race thing in order to make him some money and because she wanted people to think he was in fact an armiger, perhaps an exhultant's bastard. [Note, racing around town in carriages and gambling was the kind of thing officers and the idle rich did in places like London and Paris in the 1700s and 1800s.] And then she asks him to kiss her and suggests they might find a private place after supper and before the duel, even though that might not be the best thing to do before a duel. The building that houses the BG is one helluva a glass structure, and is reminiscent to me of The Room of Requirement at Hogwarts. Agia explains things this way: on either side of this corridor are chambers, and each chamber is a bioscope...because the corridor is shorter than the building itself, the chambers will widen as we go into them more deeply. Some people find that disconcerting." They enter the building and the first noticeable thing is the profound silence. And as in the library, a curator is there. He recommends they see the garden of Antiquities, which has hundreds and hundreds of extinct plants, some of which haven't been seen in millions of years. [Uuuuuhhhhh, they aren't extinct then, are they?] In fact, a window pane broke once and spores of one of the plants escaped and grows outside the BG. Workmen go by wheeling a cart, and the curator explains the Sand Garden is being rebuilt. Severian decides he wants to see the garden. There's basically nothing there but sand, but he finds he cannot leave. He and Agia argue when she tells him they've been there too long. He says she's lying, which angers her. They have in fact been there for hours and she has to drag him out. The gardens affect some suggestible people like that. The rooms have been magic-ed by Father Inire because the Autarch wants some people to remain in each garden to accent the reality of the scene. [!!!] Severian feels like he was supposed to meet someone, and that a certain woman was nearby, but concealed from sight. They continue on, and pass a door that says The Jungle Garden. Again, Severian wants to look in. Agia worries they don't have the time and won't get to the Garden of Delectation and get the avern. Severian is a bit frightened of what he might find there, and so is determined to see something else. They step into the room and the door swings shut behind them and disappears. ETA: A Wolfe fan has posted a passage from Jane Austin's Mansfield Park that he finds somewhat similar to the walk in this chapter. Take a look if you are curious. http://www.urth.net/urth/archives/v0029/0029.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darth Richard II Posted March 17, 2016 Share Posted March 17, 2016 Oh man, the jungle, prepare for crazysauce. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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