Tywin Lannister, Shield of Westeros

[The Wolves]

No, it was his incompetent father who was in danger of losing his families position as Overlords, perhaps even as Lords.

With his grandfather dead and his father a fool it was up to Tywin to take responsibility of the House. He was basically the Patriarch of his house as a teenager.

oh god, not one of these pointless questions.

Deep down he always wanted to be a dancer like Billy Elliot but had to sacrifice his dreams and become a Lord instead.

I love how everything Tywin does is excused because his father was a incompetent lord. So he orders the rape and murder of women and children than its because "his father almost destroyed house Lannister" it's nobody's fault but Tywin's that he became so obsessed with his house.

And thanks for answering my question that Tywin never sacrificed for his house so why should his freakish evil spawn be expected to do the same.

[Humble Maester]

I love how everything Tywin does is excused because his father was a incompetent lord. So he orders the rape and murder of women and children than its because "his father almost destroyed house Lannister" it's nobody's fault but Tywin's that he became so obsessed with his house.

And thanks for answering my question that Tywin never sacrificed for his house so why should his freakish evil spawn be expected to do the same.

Well it is a meaningless question but you could argue his continuing service as Hand under Aerys II "the Mad, also madly hating on Tywin" would had crushed a lesser man but he did it anyways. I am sure you are in the camp who think Tywin never does anything good so let's say he did it for the selfish motivation of advancing his house then.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

And thanks for answering my question that Tywin never sacrificed for his house so why should his freakish evil spawn be expected to do the same.

How can any of us know what he did or did not sacrifice for his House, he's not a POV.

Maybe he wanted to be care free like Gerion and travel the world, maybe deep down he's hates violence and is sickened by the stuff he has to do in order to keep his House at the top. We will never know, we dont get to see inside his head or see everything he has done.

It's a dumb question, and like many questions only labelled at Tywin.

[The Wolves]

Well it is a meaningless question but you could argue his continuing service as Hand under Aerys II "the Mad, also madly hating on Tywin" would had crushed a lesser man but he did it anyways. I am sure you are in the camp who think Tywin never does anything good so let's say he did it for the selfish motivation of advancing his house then.

Let's not make Tywin Aerys' victim. I'm not denying that Aerys was horrible to Tywin but Tywin did not stay as Hand for the good of the realm. Tywin stayed to further his house and no I don't condemn him for that he has every right to climb the social ladder but let's not act like Tywin was doing it for the good of the realm he was doing for power and the chance to marry into the Royal family.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Let's not make Tywin Aerys' victim. I'm not denying that Aerys was horrible to Tywin but Tywin did not stay as Hand for the good of the realm. Tywin stayed to further his house and no I don't condemn him for that he has every right to climb the social ladder but let's not act like Tywin was doing it for the good of the realm he was doing for power and the chance to marry into the Royal family.

That is the best marriage he could get for his daughter. That can be called a sacrifice. Doing a job you hate to give your children a better future.

In fairness this is a story about nobility, none of the Lords are really making sacrifices and if they are they are easily torn apart as doing something that will somehow benefit them.

[The Wolves]

That is the best marriage he could get for his daughter. That can be called a sacrifice. Doing a job you hate to give your children a better future.

In fairness this is a story about nobility, none of the Lords are really making sacrifices and if they are they are easily torn apart as doing something that will somehow benefit them.

He was doing it to better House Lannister and get more power not better his daughter's future and that's fine IMO like I said Tywin has every right to get power and try to latch onto the Royal family(though I love the Targs I don't understand the desire to be apart of their family kings or not)Tywin acted like in his arrogance that he was owed a royal marriage when he is not.

And I do agree with your second sentence.

[Fireandblood94]

Tywin gets a lot of flack, but the Shield of Westeros is accurate. He was a good but harsh ruler, and every cruel thing he did (except for his fathers mistress and Tysha) had a good justification.

If he didn't kill every last member of the Reynes, the lords of the Westerlands would get the idea that his family was weak and would suffer to be crossed.

If he didn't have Rhaegar's kids killed there would be potential for a Targaryen restoration and civil war.

If he didn't do the Red wedding, then Robb's army would still be raping and pillaging as it went, as armies are won't to do.

He ruled the Seven Kingdoms fairly and ably as Hand of the King.

What about Gregor Clegane raping an pillaging in the Riverlands before Ned's death?

Not to mention the sacking of Kings Landing ....

[Connartist92]

A petty and arrogant man who was born with a lot of money and used it to hoard power from himself and smash the realm to pieces.

The opposite of Tytos, yet somehow much, much worse as a lord. Too spiteful and cruel.

A rapist.

Who did Tywin rape?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

What about Gregor Clegane raping an pillaging in the Riverlands before Ned's death?

Not to mention the sacking of Kings Landing ....

What about them?

As horrific as chevauchée seems to us, it was an act intended to put pressure on the Tullys into releasing his abducted son. Sucks for the smallfolk holdfasts and villages, but sadly few really care about them.

Kings Landing would have been sacked no matter what. Tywin is responsible for hundreds of deaths in Kings Landing, but hundreds would have died anyway once the Rebels sieged and attacked the city.

Who did Tywin rape?

He ordered the gang rape of Tysha , a pretty disgusting act.

[Winterfell is Burning]

Is this thread about his time as a Lord or the people who inherited after him?

Do you judge Ned Stark as a Lord on the time he was alive or do you judge him an absolute disaster because a year after he died Winterfell was destroyed and the Starks replaced as a leading House?

Different case. Robb was 15 when his father died, Tywin's heirs all adults. Do you think if Robb was 35 when Ned died the situation wouldn't have been entirely different? Or if Tywin died when his children were 15 it wouldn't all fall apart quickly, and they would fare much worse than Robb?

[Winterfell is Burning]

What about them?

As horrific as chevauchée seems to us, it was an act intended to put pressure on the Tullys into releasing his abducted son. Sucks for the smallfolk holdfasts and villages, but sadly few really care about them.

And what did accomplish? Tell me, what did raping and murder thousands of women and children had to do with the release of Tyrion? What good it did?

On the other hand, it DOES have to do with the fact that hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people will starve to death in winter.

So: he murders and rapes tens of thousands, leads millions to starvation, and accomplishes NOTHING with this and he's a great ruler, the Shield of Westeros because of this?

I'll say it again: most Tywin apologists would be the biggest Putin fanboys if they lived in Russia, or supported the likes of Mussolini or Stalin if they lived in the countries during that time. It's the same macho posture and bravado and the same "the murder of millions is justified for the greater good" bullshit, even when, like in the case of Tyrion's kidnapping, undeniably accomplished nothing.

[Humble Maester]

As horrific as chevauchée seems to us, it was an act intended to put pressure on the Tullys into releasing his abducted son. Sucks for the smallfolk holdfasts and villages, but sadly few really care about them.

I'd actually disagree with this. The kidnapping was the reason for the raids but the raids weren't directly intended to put pressure on Tully's or to get Tyrion released. Isn't it pretty much stated in the books that his goal was to draw Ned into a trap, afterwards which he could had traded Ned for Tyrion (a proper trade for Lannister prestige)? It's just that Jaime screwed that plan up with his own actions.

Also the reason Ned figured out for the raids, ie. scattering riverlord forces, was a nice extra benefit for the upcoming war.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Different case. Robb was 15 when his father died, Tywin's heirs all adults. Do you think if Robb was 35 when Ned died the situation wouldn't have been entirely different? Or if Tywin died when his children were 15 it wouldn't all fall apart quickly, and they would fare much worse than Robb?

Yes. I am a 100% certain had Tywin died when Jaime was 15 the Lannisters would not have been in a worse shape than the Starks under 15 year old Robb.

It is actually more ridiculous that some of you label the actions of the 30something Lannister twins as Tywins fault. They are adults, capable of their own fucks ups. Tywin left them in a very, very comfortable position.

And what did accomplish? Tell me, what did raping and murder thousands of women and children had to do with the release of Tyrion? What good it did?

What good does any of these Lords actions achieve?

They are all self serving. Robb was not thinking of the lives of the smallfolk when he went to war, it was all about freeing his father no matter how many would suffer.

On the other hand, it DOES have to do with the fact that hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of people will starve to death in winter.

Thank god he ordered the Red Wedding to give the Riverlands a chance.

That insane bastard Robb Stark was unwilling to give up despite his own mother telling him to.

So: he murders and rapes tens of thousands, leads millions to starvation, and accomplishes NOTHING with this and he's a great ruler, the Shield of Westeros because of this?

He didn't rape tens of thousands. If millions starve that is not just down to Tywin, but many others.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

I'd actually disagree with this. The kidnapping was the reason for the raids but the raids weren't directly intended to put pressure on Tully's or to get Tyrion released. Isn't it pretty much stated in the books that his goal was to draw Ned into a trap, afterwards which he could had traded Ned for Tyrion (a proper trade for Lannister prestige)? It's just that Jaime screwed that plan up with his own actions.

Also the reason Ned figured out for the raids, ie. scattering riverlord forces, was a nice extra benefit for the upcoming war.

I think the plan is two fold. Tywin has no idea where Cat has taken his son, if the Tullys can convince her to release him before Ned reacts then that is all the better. If it takes Ned being captured and then exchanged then that will also do.

I dont think he really intended to go to war, the Tullys were meant to panic into releasing him.

[Humble Maester]

I think the plan is two fold. Tywin has no idea where Cat has taken his son, if the Tullys can convince her to release him before Ned reacts then that is all the better. If it takes Ned being captured and then exchanged then that will also do.

I dont think he really intended to go to war, the Tullys were meant to panic into releasing him.

Actually relating to this, and I may have been operating under a misconception, the ASOIAF-wiki says:

"...lord Tywin hopes the raids will lure Catelyn’s husband, Lord Eddard Stark, into the Riverlands where he can be captured, bringing a swift conclusion to the conflict. However, Tywin’s plan is unknowingly foiled by his son Jaime, whose ambush of Eddard in the streets of King's Landing results in a broken leg which prevents Eddard from travelling..."

Where do we learn about this in the books, would you or anyone else happen to remember? I tried looking through the e-books but with no luck.

[The Fallen]

Actually relating to this, and I may have been operating under a misconception, the ASOIAF-wiki says:

"...lord Tywin hopes the raids will lure Catelyns husband, Lord Eddard Stark, into the Riverlands where he can be captured, bringing a swift conclusion to the conflict. However, Tywins plan is unknowingly foiled by his son Jaime, whose ambush of Eddard in the streets of King's Landing results in a broken leg which prevents Eddard from travelling..."

Where do we learn about this in the books, would you or anyone else happen to remember? I tried looking through the e-books but with no luck.

Harwyn, I think, who was a member of the party sent by Ned to arrest the Mountain, relates a similar story to Arya, I believe.

And I think Tywin tells Tyrion something similar. I don't have chapters though.

[Ramsay Gimp]

Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella are children of a incestous relationship and have no claim to the throne due to no Baratheon blood within them. Hence Ned was trying to ensuring the lawful succession of the throne to Stannis when he confronted Cersei (albeit very stupidly).... Therefore Ned was unlawfully arrested and the Lannisters have technically committed treason.. Which explains why people give Robb a pass and not Tywin when they both call their banners..

You think I'm not aware who Joffrey,Tommen, and Myrcella's real father was?

My point was that the Starks had no idea that Joffrey wasn't Roberts son. So Robb rebelled just because the King arrested his father

[Ramsay Gimp]

Different case. Robb was 15 when his father died, Tywin's heirs all adults. Do you think if Robb was 35 when Ned died the situation wouldn't have been entirely different? Or if Tywin died when his children were 15 it wouldn't all fall apart quickly, and they would fare much worse than Robb?

So what bullshit excuse do you have for Hoster Tully then? His children were all adults, and where are they now?

[devilish]

Its very difficult to discuss Tywin mainly because he built this aura of perfectionism when actually he's not perfect. No one is.

Lets start mentioning Tywin's strengths. There's no denying that he's a brilliant administrator. He turned the Westerlands from a poorly run country at the brink of civil war and bankruptcy to a well oiled machine, were all bannermen stand in line, wealth is flowing from it pores and their armies are professionally run. He did the same to Kingslanding when he was hand of the king. His second main strength is his ability to convince others to do his bidding. Both Tywin and Walder didn't showed up at the Trident however the former had his daughter marrying the king while the latter was ridiculed for the rest of his lie. That's just one example. He convinced Robert B to fight wars on his own behalf (the Greyjoy rebellion), he convinced the Boltons-Freys to betray their king without giving them anything in exchange and he convinced Tyrion to risk his neck at Kingslanding while trying to save his evil sister/son in law when he could have easily gone to Casterly Rock and stay safe. There's no denying that Tywin is a remarkable man

However he's far from perfect.

a- His ambition got on the way to everything. He wasn't present around his children when they needed him.

b- He overestimated the twins to devastating consequences (Jamie nearly lost half the Lannister army while battling a 14 year old general) and underestimated Tyrion (he couldn't go past the fact that his most brilliant son was a dwarf). Such weaknesses makes him a slightly than average military commander (a great general always give the command to great people).

c- He never walked the talk. His children had to marry whoever he wanted them to marry for the good of the family but he only married out of love. He also criticized Tyrion and Tythos for going with whores when he did the same thing

d- Its a continuation of A, however with a twist. Once angered Tywin was prone of a level of hatred which not only wasn't needed but made him great enemies. There was absolutely no need for Elia Martell to die the way she did but he still instructed Gregor to be brutal (ok some will say he may not have done that, however you don't send Gregor to retrieve someone unless you want that someone to be butchered). The way he treated Tyrion was way over the top (Tysha, the trial etc). Such barbarism, not only made the Lannisters one of the most hated houses in the 7 kingdoms but also costed Tywin his life.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

c- He never walked the talk. His children had to marry whoever he wanted them to marry for the good of the family but he only married out of love. He also criticized Tyrion and Tythos for going with whores when he did the same thing

He never really had to. The marriages he arranged our as much for looking after those Lannisters futures as it is about making alliances. It better to have them marry and have their children inherit their own land rather than become distant relations to the main Lannister branch.

When Joanna died he was Hand of the King, he didn't need to make alliances. His focus was on Jaime inheriting the Rock, Cersei marrying a Targ and something for Tyrion.

For a brief period it would have been wise for him to seek out a marriage alliance. After he quit as Hand, though in that year the land was in civil war and Tywin was on the fence. The Westerlands was firmly behind him so marrying within his own lands was pointless. After the war he married his daughter to the King of Westeros. He does not need any more political alliances as he is the Grandfather of Princes and a Princess.

The marriage alliances he has made since becoming a father-in-law to a King:

• Married his nephew to the heir of House Hayford ensuring that he will rule his own lands.
• Married Lancel to a Frey with Darry blood ensuring that he will rule his own lands.
• Married Tyrion to the heir of the North, potentially giving him the North. Promised him other lands instead if he didn't want it.
• Arranged for his bastard niece to marry Reynald Westerling, so her children will inherit the Crag.
• Talked of marrying Cersei off. This was more of a PR move, her and Jaime together was bad news. Marrying her to Willas does not really get a new ally.
• Only poor Daven has been screwed, as he seemingly has a marriage with no lands as a reward.

As for whores, he does not really have a problem with them.

"Why do you care?" he asked, unwilling even to speak Shae's name in his presence.

"I don't. No more than I care if they live or die."

What pisses him off is when Tytos allowed his to govern the Westerlands and Tyrion threatened to harm Tommen if Cersei hurt his whore. He doesn't hate prostitutes, he's not like Stannis trying to outlaw it, he just does not think you should fall in love with them.