BitsOfBrains Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Stannis burnt the seven and Mell burns worshippers of the faith, killing them would qualify as protecting innocents. Just because someone worships the seven doesn't make them innocent and those statues belonged to Stannis so he could do whatever he wanted with them. Stannis/Melisandre have never burned anyone for their religion. Those guys who defended the sept were burned for taking up arms against the king, not for worshiping the seven. Its funny I can actually see the seeds of fanaticism in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibzit Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Just because someone worships the seven doesn't make them innocent and those statues belonged to Stannis so he could do whatever he wanted with them. Stannis/Melisandre have never burned anyone for their religion. Those guys who defended the sept were burned for taking up arms against the king, not for worshiping the seven. Its funny I can actually see the seeds of fanaticism in this thread. Lord Sunglass was burnt for his religion, he didn't even defend the sept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Lord Sunglass was burnt for his religion, he didn't even defend the sept. A. Sunglass was a traitor. B. He was killed by Mel Selyse not Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibzit Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 A. Sunglass was a traitor. B. He was killed by Mel not Stannis. A.Betrayed Stannis because he was killing people from fot7 and burning his gods B. And the sparrows want to kill Mel, and she gets protection from Stannis. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 A.Betrayed Stannis because he was killing people from fot7 and burning his gods B. And the sparrows want to kill Mel, and she gets protection from Stannis. Again, he betrayed Stannis so Stannis had the freedom to punish him as he thought. As for the sept, there is no law in Westeros which say that a Lord has to have a sept, if he likes he has one and Stannis doesn't want one. Who Stannis, not Mel not Selyse but Stannis killed because of his religion? If anything Stannis' army is the most religiously diverse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twenty of House Goodmen Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Just because someone worships the seven doesn't make them innocent and those statues belonged to Stannis so he could do whatever he wanted with them. Stannis/Melisandre have never burned anyone for their religion. Those guys who defended the sept were burned for taking up arms against the king, not for worshiping the seven. It truly baffles me when Stannis fans try to use this defnse, and he's one of my favorite charcaters. So because it's Stannis's "house", it's perfectly fine for him to attack idols of other religions and allow his troops to burn sets and weirwoods? I'm having a real hard time understanding this logic, but I guess it's okay because "Stannis the Mannis!".Edit: Dammnit, quote fail. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 It truly baffles me when Stannis fans try to use this defnse, and he's one of my favorite charcaters. So because it's Stannis's "house", it's perfectly fine for him to attack idols of other religions and allow his troops to burn sets and weirwoods? I'm having a real hard time understanding this logic, but I guess it's okay because "Stannis the Mannis!".Edit: Dammnit, quote fail.Again. Stannis chose that in his freaking house he didn't wanted a Sept or a Weirwood. It was his choice. When he went to the Wall he didn't said that the weirwoods there should be burn. There is nothing to say that a Lord have to accept all the faiths in his house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twenty of House Goodmen Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Again. Stannis chose that in his freaking house he didn't wanted a Sept or a Weirwood. It was his choice. When he went to the Wall he didn't said that the weirwoods there should be burn. There is nothing to say that a Lord have to accept all the faiths in his house.Well, then, I guess when Stannis captures Winterfell and decides to burn the godswood, those Northerners better just stand by and accept it, because hey, he's king now, and he won it through conquest.Guess the Spanish Inquisition was justifiable. Their land, their rules right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gibzit Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Again. Stannis chose that in his freaking house he didn't wanted a Sept or a Weirwood. It was his choice. When he went to the Wall he didn't said that the weirwoods there should be burn. There is nothing to say that a Lord have to accept all the faiths in his house. If Stannis does not want to have a sept in his castle that is fine, but burning people's gods and killing vassals that didn't want to convert isn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Well, then, I guess when Stannis captures Winterfell and decides to burn the godswood, those Northerners better just stand by and accept it, because hey, he's king now, and he won it through conquest. If WF is his House yes. He is the King and doesn't expect all the septs to be destroyed just the one in his house. Guess the Spanish Inquisition was justifiable. Their land, their rules right? What does the torturing of people because of their faith have anything to do with someone who doesn't want to have a church or any other religious building in his house? If Stannis does not want to have a sept in his castle that is fine, but burning people's gods and killing vassals that didn't want to convert isn't. Who he killed for not converting? Again Sunglass is a traitor, Stannis put him in a cage and Selyse killed him. Who Stannis killed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Twenty of House Goodmen Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 If WF is his House yes. He is the King and doesn't expect all the septs to be destroyed just the one in his house.Which is absolutely disrespectful towards his Faith worshiping and Old God's worshiping subjects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prince Not Promised Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Show Lancel is a fanatic religious zealot. Book Lancel isn't that, at least not yet. Now if he burns the seven-pointed star into his forehead and starts beating up whores it will be a whole different story. So far all he's done is give up all his rights and possessions and confess sleeping with Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Which is absolutely disrespectful towards his Faith worshiping and Old God's worshiping subjects.For some people in todays society maybe. If I don't want in my House a religious site I think I have the right to get rid of it. In any case it may be dierespectful but heck it is Westeros and there is no law to obligate him to have a sept. Why not respecting his right for his house to be the way he wanted to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Prince Not Promised Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 For some people in todays society maybe. If I don't want in my House a religious site I think I have the right to get rid of it. In any case it may be dierespectful but heck it is Westeros and there is no law to obligate him to have a sept. Why not respecting his right for his house to be the way he wanted to? So let's just say that in real life a Christian army commander captured a city during the Crusades. He'd be well within his rights to burn down a mosque in town because it's his city now? I mean, Winterfell is just as much a town/city as it is a fort. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caspoi Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 I may like Stannis but saying that the Faith is completely unjustified in being upset about him is not really fair. Stannis may be the lord of Dragonstone but you can't deny that burning the idols of the Faith of the Seven sends a very clear message about things (at any rate it is hardly as if he was the only one using or "owning" the sept). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Ser Septon Maester Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 I got nothing against Lancel. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ShadowCat Rivers Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 He didn't beat her up, he read her the list of her brother's crimes, under the King's orders. If that's all it takes for you to hate a character, you must hate 98% of the characters... All PoV characters bar Sam and Sansa included. Once again, it's not about what he did. It's the characterization drawn from the passages, and (in addition to his general presence in the books, little as it is) he comes off IMO as a cheep and shallow personality. In the second passage, the Hound is there in the scene too, a person whose crimes and sins are much heavier than Lancel's. But as a reader I am not acting as a judge in a court of law, I am sort of "weighting their souls" to put it that way and to me, Lancel reads that way: as an egocentric brat, even in "redemption"; not convincing at all. And no, it's not about him being religious or of the Faith of the Seven; so are septon Meribald and the Elder Brother both of whom I do find as exemplary cases of genuine religious faith that comes from deep within, and of true repent. As to that scene: he is not acting there just as a clerk in joffrey's service. We have been given commentary on how the kingsguard respond to Sansa's abuse and there's Arys Oakheart, Mandon Moore, Meryn Trant... They all do the deed, but each respond differently to it. In the particular scene Lancel does not beat her but it's perfectly clear where he stands. He's not neutral. Passing it off as just doing his job is plainly an "advocate's defence" sort of argument and I am not interested in that sort of debate. Oh, and there's no textual evidence at all that the faith militant are helping/protecting anyone. At Darry, we see some people out in the fields trying to cultivate what crop can be salvaged before winter and we hear of some other people chasing dangerous outlaws. The faith militant do none of these things, just sit outside of the sept to protect Lancel's peace while he's praying. So until we can actually see them being useful to anyone, I reserve my right to doubt that they are helping anyone but their own organization's political agenda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lord Wraith Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Wasn't this thread about Lancel? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BitsOfBrains Posted May 27, 2015 Share Posted May 27, 2015 Oh, and there's no textual evidence at all that the faith militant are helping/protecting anyone. At Darry, we see some people out in the fields trying to cultivate what crop can be salvaged before winter and we hear of some other people chasing dangerous outlaws. The faith militant do none of these things, just sit outside of the sept to protect Lancel's peace while he's praying. So until we can actually see them being useful to anyone, I reserve my right to doubt that they are helping anyone but their own organization's political agenda. Good point. If there is a religious group that actually seems to be helping small folk and keeping them safe its Thoros and his Red God Posse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon's Queen Consort Posted May 28, 2015 Share Posted May 28, 2015 So let's just say that in real life a Christian army commander captured a city during the Crusades. He'd be well within his rights to burn down a mosque in town because it's his city now? I mean, Winterfell is just as much a town/city as it is a fort. Again his house. He had the Wall ahd he could had destroyed the trees there, but he didn't. He only destroyed the religious sites at his house. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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