Why I believe Jon is NOT in need of resurrection/warging

[JonisHenryTudor]

So now the hot springs under Winterfell are part of the conspiracy?

I'm done.

What conspiracy? Nobody said anything about a conspiracy.

Only that the mention of smoke ties to Jon in one way or another. Unless of course you don't buy into R+L=J?

[Julia H.]

Drogon's blood temperature would be far hotter because he's a dragon after all. His internals are conditioned for far higher temperatures. So in a hot climate like Mereen, a very hot drop of dragon's blood will still give off smoke even on a hot day.

Read this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2824124/

So biologically speaking holes in our bodies will release body heat. That heat converts to steam in a cold environment and becomes pronounced in a cold and dark environment. Opaque enough to look like smoke.

The prefix on Jon's smoking wound is important. Why prefix that statement with cold and dark and then tell us what it looks like? Emphasis is why. He's not telling you that Jon is about to start breathing fire.

So basically you are saying that the words "in the cold night air" are a scientific clue to the nature of Jon's wound (otherwise described very ambiguously) rather than just words added for description and atmosphere, but at the same time, in the same sentence, the author just happens to use the word smoke to describe steam, which is scientifically absolutely inaccurate, just to add some colour to the language.

As I see it, the opposite may just as well be true: Smoke (literal smoke) invokes fire, fire invokes heat and light. The mention of the cold night creates a contrast to this fiery concept, making the language of the description more dynamic, and emphasizing that opposing forces are at work here both magically and symbolically.

Since we are not reading a biology book but a novel, I'm in favour of the latter interpretation.

Now that I have given you my reading of "the cold night air", I'm curious to hear what you make of the other smoking wound and the connection between the two smoking wounds that are both in the text, in close proximity to each other, which I interpret as a clue to Jon's secret identity.

By the way, Drogon's wound may smoke or steam, it does not seem to be lethal, which also gives me hope with regard to Jon.

[JonisHenryTudor]

So basically you are saying that the words "in the cold night air" are a scientific clue to the nature of Jon's wound (otherwise described very ambiguously) rather than just words added for description and atmosphere, but at the same time, in the same sentence, the author just happens to use the word smoke to describe steam, which is scientifically absolutely inaccurate, just to add some colour to the language.

As I see it, the opposite may just as well be true: Smoke (literal smoke) invokes fire, fire invokes heat and light. The mention of the cold night creates a contrast to this fiery concept, making the language of the description more dynamic, and emphasizing that opposing forces are at work here both magically and symbolically.

Since we are not reading a biology book but a novel, I'm in favour of the latter interpretation.

Now that I have given you my reading of "the cold night air", I'm curious to hear what you make of the other smoking wound and the connection between the two smoking wounds that are both in the text, in close proximity to each other, which I interpret as a clue to Jon's secret identity.

By the way, Drogon's wound may smoke or steam, it does not seem to be lethal, which also gives me hope with regard to Jon.

Dam I never thought of that. That is a good point.

[BalerionTheCat]

Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her.

Yes, I was thinking about this reference too.

I don't know if it adds to the possibility of Jon's wounds smoking for something more than figurative. At this point we don't really need another symbol of his Targaryen blood. The description of Jon's wounds, the prologue, Barristan remark concerning deep cut, all seem to me to tell the wounds are fatal.

The real question should be not whether or how he survives but why he needs stabbing in the first place. What is the plot arc reason that demands it? I think that is going to be part of the Jon's parentage reveal and the shock at the end of the episode is going to be a transformation in Jon's appearance.

And I agree that the right question is why. IMHO, a wounded Jon, just for the suspense between two books, would be sloppy writing. It must mark Jon's transformation, like for Bran when he fell from the tower. But with Bran there was no suspense. Even if Jon is transformed thru injuries, not death, the character he was before is dead. So why not a true death? The difference is moot for me.

Possibly the smoking is figurative, but representative of his future state. In this case it would connect with the description of Melisande smoking black blood.

[JonisHenryTudor]

And I agree that the right question is why. IMHO, a wounded Jon, just for the suspense between two books, would be sloppy writing. It must mark Jon's transformation, like for Bran when he fell from the tower. But with Bran there was no suspense. Even if Jon is transformed thru injuries, not death, the character he was before is dead. So why not a true death? The difference is moot for me.

I agree that this event will lead to transformation (i.e. Dany), and I think most people believe this as well (not the 1% who think jon is dead and will stay dead). I used Dany's example of how Martin can create a powerful event to express transformation in a character. In Dany's case is a special event tied into fire, and I think in Jon's case it could be Ice. Whichever way Martin does it, I am sure it will be palatable ;).

As is obvious by this thread, I don't think Jon needs to die for this transformation. Jon's transformation could occur as an organic response to the events around him. If the smoke is literal, that could tie into Martin's attempt to maintain a sense of the magical fantasy world without overdoing it. Just as Dany walked into the flames.

Let's throw this out there, and it still sort of ties into the thread. It seems in Dany's POV there are subtle changes until the major pyre transformation. By that time she began to shed the meek little girl skin for a more authoritative woman figure. Would the pyre have worked in Dany's second chapter? No. I think Martin lays it out so Dany begins to transform before he says "ok she is ready for her dragons".

Jon - Same thing. Upon first arriving to the watch he still had much of his boyish tendencies and while he began to transform after living with the wildlings, he is not quite there. Now Mel mentions there is power at the wall. Perhaps when this attack happens, it is also at the right time. Jon is ready to make that hurdle and become "the man" and some form of ice magic will come into play. This is pure speculation, but perhaps this is why we have a smoking wound? Perhaps ice magic helps unveil Jon's identity or at least a portion? In regards to the transformation, what I am suggesting is that once the scene picks up we have the ice version of Dany's transformation.

[Julia H.]

And I agree that the right question is why. IMHO, a wounded Jon, just for the suspense between two books, would be sloppy writing. It must mark Jon's transformation, like for Bran when he fell from the tower. But with Bran there was no suspense. Even if Jon is transformed thru injuries, not death, the character he was before is dead. So why not a true death? The difference is moot for me.

Because after true death, there is no true life, IMHO. You see, I agree with the idea of transformation or at least that the stabbing is a pivotal point in Jon's storyline. However, as JoinisHenryTudor said above, transformation is possible without true death.

To me the difference is huge.

We have seen enough people being revived after death, but I haven't seen yet one that remained the same person as before death. The really bad news is that they all changed for the worse. On the basis of what we have read so far, what kind of transformation can we expect?

UnBeric: We hardly know what the living Beric was like. What I can tell of UnBeric, however, is that his "second life" (just like his third and fourth etc. life) is fixated on the same idea that he was pursuing when he died. Though the idea is a noble one, I doubt that Beric can see the bigger picture behind it any more. His memories fade, he loses his humanity more and more, as he is consumed by the fire that keeps him moving. There is no joy in this sort of life, no possibility of development or fulfilment. At the same time, the possibility of multiple resurrections also cheapens the risk of death.

It is OK and well for a minor character, but not for one of the main characters. Whatever fight Jon has to fight in the future, what kind of hero would he be if there was no real risk, no real sacrifice for him, because he, unlike other humans, could be resurrected again and again, like Beric? Also, regardless of whether Jon is the Prince That Was Promised or not, there is at least one promise we have regarding him: It is that he will find out his true parentage. Yet, if he lost his memories (UnBeric doesn't remember who his mother was), the revelation would have no impact on him whatsoever.

UnCat: This time we know for sure just how different Lady Stark and Lady Stoneheart are. In reality, they are two different characters. There is this sinister creature with (some of?) Cat's memories and feelings who spends her time hanging Freys somewhat indiscriminately. Yet, the complex and loveable Catelyn Tully Stark as a character is dead. UnJon, too, would be a totally different character, not the same one whose character development we have seen so far. If we had UnCat-like UnJon, it would mean that Jon Snow is dead (along with Jon Stark and Jon Targaryen if you like) - and all the potential the living character has would be dead with him. Judging by UnCat, the replacement would be rather disappointing, I'm afraid.

Varamyr: His "second life" is the life of an animal. Once his body is dead, there is no way back. I love Ghost, but Jon and Ghost are two different characters. If Jon lived as Ghost for the rest of his life, Jon Snow, as a character, would be dead again. Wonderful as Ghost is, I don't think Jon would be able to achieve his goals and truly find his answers as a direwolf.

The wights: Apparently just robots. Not a life at all.

To me it seems that a second life always has a price, and the currency is typically the humanity of the character in question. I am convinced that Jon is needed as a fully human being (if he is needed in the rest of the story at all). Not as a subhuman creature with a very narrow "personality" at best.

As for the other possibility, that he becomes somehow superhuman and death does not affect him as it affects others... well, I don't know. I'm convinced that Jon is a hero, and as a hero, he needs to risk all that a human being can risk for his goals, he needs to share the basic human experience that includes joy and fear and longing and sacrifice, and, yes, even the possibility of laying down his life for a greater purpose.

[whiteravens]

I agree. Jon's not dead, he's not warging or WW resurecting or Lightning Lord'ing - he's wounded. He'll recover.

Why? Well, call me crazy, but I have a little faith in the man thats created this ridiculously in depth, twisted, weaving of an entire world, rather than a single story, and his respect for his own time, his characters and his audience. GRRM gets a fair bit of hate from fans and critics alike for his choices, but to be honest, it all kind of makes sense, the way things tend to turn out. Sticking to the realm of the books (which were conceived years ago without the intention to create a show from them) all the death and gore and futility either further the story, or make sense in context. I think when we loose characters, even ones we really like, they have a sense of completeness about them, we know who they 'are' and what they stand for, and what the road that lead to their death looks like. To put it (very) simply, Ned stuck with honor, tried to play the game and lost. Robb was at war, and made a pretty big mistake going back on his word. Renly was up against fanatacism, Joffrey was nuts and too few people wanted him alive, Jon Arryn had a crazy wife, Robert had a ambitious one.. Tywin made Tyrions already difficult life worse.

Jon has a sense of incompleteness. He's got something to do, whatever that might be. Littlefinger's the same, it just wouldnt make sense for him to get bumped off right now when theres still so much being alluded to that we know we havent been told yet. His death, or any of the other options, just don't really make sense.

[The Santa of House Claus]

WOW opens: Marsh carrying Jon's limp body towards an ice cell

Jon: "I don't want to go in the ice cell!"

Marsh: "Quiet, you'll be dead in a moment."

Jon: "I feel better."

Marsh: "No you don't, you'll be stone dead in a moment."

Jon: "I feel HAPPY, so HAPPY!"

Marsh: "You're not fooling anyone."

[JonisHenryTudor]

WOW opens: Marsh carrying Jon's limp body towards an ice cell

Jon: "I don't want to go in the ice cell!"

Marsh: "Quiet, you'll be dead in a moment."

Jon: "I feel better."

Marsh: "No you don't, you'll be stone dead in a moment."

Jon: "I feel HAPPY, so HAPPY!"

Marsh: "You're not fooling anyone."

:bowdown:

[Sly Wren]

Because after true death, there is no true life, IMHO. You see, I agree with the idea of transformation or at least that the stabbing is a pivotal point in Jon's storyline. However, as JoinisHenryTudor said above, transformation is possible without true death.

To me the difference is huge.

We have seen enough people being revived after death, but I haven't seen yet one that remained the same person as before death. The really bad news is that they all changed for the worse. On the basis of what we have read so far, what kind of transformation can we expect?

:agree:

Martin has spent a lot of time in the novels setting up all the ways that magical transformation of humans does NOT get the humans in question what they actually need. Nor does it serve the people around the magically transformed humans. If the point is for Jon to move forward in some way--information, a breaking point, "become the man"--magical transformation in Martin's world will not get him there.

If the point would be to set Jon up to possibly go "dark," can't see any reason why he can't do that as a full blown human. He has rages, struggles with his past, just got stabbed--if he's going dark, he can go on his own. Magical transformation always goes wrong. Won't get Jon anything he needs.

WOW opens: Marsh carrying Jon's limp body towards an ice cell

Jon: "I don't want to go in the ice cell!"

Marsh: "Quiet, you'll be dead in a moment."

Jon: "I feel better."

Marsh: "No you don't, you'll be stone dead in a moment."

Jon: "I feel HAPPY, so HAPPY!"

Marsh: "You're not fooling anyone."

:bowdown: Much better than magic.

[BalerionTheCat]

To me the difference is huge.

I have absolutely not on my radar something like UnBeric or UnCat. I would not presume on what GRRM will write, but such limited creatures would be a total destruction of what GRRM built so far with Jon. It would be worse than truly dead. I could imagine a temporary state, but I don't believe it likely. (And why would it change later?)

IMO, the super Terminator Jon is not GRRM style either. His characters must be vulnerable, at least those he intends to keep alive. But Jon could become something slightly more than human. For example, his blood smoking like (apparently) Melisandre. Something which will make the difference in the end, but is not evident yet.

Again, injury or temporary death, I'm not doing a fixation on it. I will not repeat, but IMHO, every points presented here suggest a death and rebirth in Jon 2.0.

In fact, it raises the question of whether GRRM will break his apparent "law of death". So far everyone resurrected was horrible. But could it be different for Jon? My speculation is that death is controlled by the gods, the Lion of Night (another name for the Stranger). This god, maybe with the assistance of the Maiden of Light, could reborn Jon in an improved body. I know this is just speculation, but this is a fantasy novel and the writer's intent takes precedence over realism.

ETA: if the gods intervention is not possible I agree 100% with you.

[bemused]

Julia scooped me, above ;) ... and with more eloquence than I see on my notepad.. Yes, the characters' humanity is what makes the difference, which is partly what I was trying to get at with the Mel quotes.. whatever power she has, she has lost her humanity.

(But there you go.. Balerion sees Mel as more than human..I see her as less than..)

Looking back at Maester Aemon's "Kill the boy and let the man be born"..that's man, not creature.. not poor sad shell of his former self.. which is what all the undead have become to one degree or another.

If GRRM wants to write about the human heart in conflict with itself (as he says he does) I'd bet the farm that none of his main protagonists will become anything other than human.

In regard to the smoking wound, I tend to think that's a figurative description.. but I could see it being a one-off magical phenomenon like Dany surviving the funeral pyre.. I wouldn't absolutely rule out that it could be literal.

Like JiHT, I think that if magic comes into play in Jon's case, it will be a different category of magic from Dany's . I feel we may need to be a bit more fine-tuned about it than to think in terms of Fire magic and Ice magic, though.. e.g. I don't think that whatever made Dany fire proof on the one occasion and burn resistant at other times.. is much like what Mel has been seen to do.

And I agree with Sly Wren that Jon would be quite capable of going dark just as a man ...

As for the Gods, I don't think the gods really exist in the way that many of us, or the characters, would mean by the term.

[BalerionTheCat]

(But there you go.. Balerion sees Mel as more than human..I see her as less than..)

I've never said she has more humanity (is that the right word? benevolence, whatever, something you would like in a person). Perhaps you would have preferred I use "less human"?

For Jon, I wanted to say something with magical powers, something going in the direction of godhood. But again, please don't change what I meant to say. Maybe I used the wrong words. I don't classify Melisandre in the good guys. I believe she honestly wants to do good, but all she does is wrong finally, more evil than even Ramsey.

The "blood smoking" was an example, in absolutely no way I want to compare Jon and Melisandre personalities.

[JonisHenryTudor]

Like JiHT, I think that if magic comes into play in Jon's case, it will be a different category of magic from Dany's . I feel we may need to be a bit more fine-tuned about it than to think in terms of Fire magic and Ice magic, though.. e.g. I don't think that whatever made Dany fire proof on the one occasion and burn resistant at other times.. is much like what Mel has been seen to do.

Oh I agree. What I said was rather simplistic. It won't be something quite so easily definable as ice and fire. I don't think what Dany experienced was fire magic per se, that seems a bit too Dragon Lance-ish to me. I believe that fire was the agent in which the phenomena occurred, but something else was at work. But it also makes sense given Dany's heritage.

I see something similar with Jon. Instead of fire, ice will provide the agency, but ice magic will not be the reason for Jon's transformation. And if we look at it, Jon already is in his "pyre of ice" since it is snowing, rather stormy.

In fact, when I think of it this way it almost seems as if BR has his hands in this. Others have already made that point, but the notion that Dany and Jon have to grow to a certain point before enduring their respective transformation clearly suggests that someone is watching. Now the question of the gods existence in the story is certainly debatable I suppose. But we do know with certainty that there is one otherworldly character who has his hands in the workings of Westeros and perhaps beyond, and that is clearly Bloodraven. How much power he possesses and the extent of his power is somewhat of an unknown at the moment, but if someone or something is monitoring Dany and Jon, he seems the best candidate. The only reason I suggest this is because Martin does not seem to be the type of author who allows for random acts of power to occur; instead everything happens for a reason.

Maybe, just maybe, Jon's decision to disregard an archaic set of rules proves to BR or whomever that he is ready to do what is right not what is legal. When Jon makes that decision, perhaps whatever/whomever is behind this puts things in motion. I know this is a bit out there, but the "it wasn't me" plea does at least beg the question of what force is behind this. Prior to that, Jon proved to be a capable leader, capable fighter, but he wasn't perhaps ready to make the decisions that nobody else would. In a similar instance, Dany gets to that point by the end of GoT.

What does this have to do with anything? Well....there might be two sides of the coin here.

1. Jon's attack. He survives the attack but has a completely different perspective on the men around him, and it certainly is going to change the way he presides over his subordinates. Not as in cower to avoid it from occurring again, but perhaps become a little harsher and perhaps "Stannis-like". Such that, you are here to follow, and I will lead you. A different sort of perspective if you will.

2. Supernatural - Either BR or something else. Ice magic, cold magic, or whatever it is. The invisible hand perhaps gives the best illustration and BR might be that hand. But let's forget who or what controls these things. Jon gets to the point where he is physically and "spiritually" rather mentally prepared for the transformation. It occurs.

This is Martin we are talking so he likes to keep things subtle. In fact, I think this is where Bemused's Beserker idea plays a role. The attack probably caused an intense feeling of anger and betrayal from within. Not in the sense that Jon is going to rise and start slashing his enemies to dust like a terrible slash & hack game from the 1990s, but the building anger sparked by betrayal could cause something within to become unhinged. Perhaps the smoke signifies this, and when Jon stands up to respond, I can see the aggression and fury focused into his sword thus halting the assault. If you are bold, one cold perhaps suggest that LC may glow red in the process. In a sense the beserker or harnessing of an internal fury brought on by the combination of wolfs blood or dragon blood could possibly act as a glue between points 1. and 2.

I really hate speculating, but I tried to see this through the lens of Dany's pyre experience, the scene, and the beserker concept. If something similar happens to what I just laid out, it would present as somewhat of a natural transformation with subtle hints of a supernatural force underneath. Jon would survive, and he would not need to be resurrected.

[addicted to snow]

I thought the point of the discussion was whether the smoke necessarily meant an especially grave wound (the heat of Jon's inner organs coming out) or something else. Drogon's smoking wound suggests something magical rather than otherwise, unless Drogon's wound was steam looking like smoke, too - in the hot climate of Meereen. You have found a description of smoking pools four and a half books earlier and you seem to think that it is totally relevant to Jon's wound - but you never explain how the much more similar and much closer image of another smoking wound (the only other smoking wound) together with the magic it implies is not relevant.

Re: Winterfell in summer: A cold summer is nowhere near as cold as the area of the Wall at the time when Jon is stabbed. The text you quote says the pools smoke day and night, summer and winter. (It was you who emphasized the importance of the cold and the dark.)

I do think that Jon's wound may actually smoke - after all, we have heard of magic earlier in the series. It is possible even if it does not happen every time a Targaryen is wounded: We know that Dany was fireproof only once. But I'm completely convinced that the image is somehow related to Drogon's smoking wound (literally or symbolically, it is another question) and that the reader is meant to pick up on the connection.

(Incidentally, after Drogon's smoking black blood is described, I mean right on the next page, Jon is called - among other things - black-hearted by Tormund. Who knows, even that may not be a total coincidence.)

Well, Practically every character who bleeds in the entire series, GRRm describes their blood as "black"... GRRm is a big comic book fan & in comic books, black blood = death... Personally, I think that anyone who is ever described as having black blood (& there are dozens of examples) will not live through the series... but that is just a guess based on GRRM love of comic books...

& are you sure that these are the only two times that we have seen a wound 'smoke' or steam??? I think that happens quite a bit in the books as well...

[Julia H.]

Well, Practically every character who bleeds in the entire series, GRRm describes their blood as "black"... GRRm is a big comic book fan & in comic books, black blood = death... Personally, I think that anyone who is ever described as having black blood (& there are dozens of examples) will not live through the series... but that is just a guess based on GRRM love of comic books...

& are you sure that these are the only two times that we have seen a wound 'smoke' or steam??? I think that happens quite a bit in the books as well...

I don't know about "steaming" wounds, only "smoking" ones. Even there, I could be wrong, of course, it's difficult to comb all the volumes for further examples, but I do not recall either directly reading any other examples in the books or reading any posts citing one. So feel free to prove me wrong.

A quick research in ADwD, however, yielded some interesting results:

Smoking body parts occur when a person is burnt. That’s obvious. Then there is Mel’s smoking blood - there is no wound there though, but the smoke seems to be magical.

The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her.

Victarion’s finger and skin smoke after his wound is healed by the Red Priest.

Wisps of dark smoke rose from his finger (…)

Sometimes when Victarion closed his hand the skin would split and smoke, yet the arm was stronger than it had ever been.

Those two cases seem to originate in R’hllor-magic.

Steam is mentioned several times, in situations where one can expect steam.

I couldn’t find any other smoking wounds though, except that Drogon’s smoking wound is mentioned again in a Barristan chapter (The Queensguard) and in Dany’s last chapter. Both of them recall what happened that day in Meereen and both note Drogon’s smoking wound.

The dragon twisted violently in the air, wounds smoking, the girl clinging to his back. Then he loosed the fire. (The Queensguard)

She remembered the dragon twisting beneath her, shuddering at the impacts, as she tried desperately to cling to his scaled back. The wounds were smoking.

The Queensguard chapter is before Jon’s final chapter, Dany’s last chapter is after Jon’s last chapter. Why are we reminded again and again? The more I look at it, the more significant the smoke appears to be in Dany’s case at least. Dany’s last chapter actually ends with the word smoke.

That was how Khal Jhaqo found her, when half a hundred mounted warriors emerged from the drifting smoke.

Even if there are many other examples of smoking wounds in the other books, I'm still sure these two instances of smoking wounds are not just random words that happen to be similar. They are just a few chapters away, both occur in a moment that is a turning point in the story of a given POV character. We get the direct "fire made flesh" (i.e. "blood of the dragon") reference from one of the two POV characters, while the other POV character is also "the blood of the dragon" though he does not know. One of these occurrences is recalled in later chapters by two different characters. I don't think all this is just a coincidence.

Steam is not smoke (and wounds are not usually described as smoking in these books), but in the case of a dragon the description is not so surprising. A dragon has everything to do with fire. Then another wound is described in the same way only a few chapters later, specifically in the case of a character the reader has reason to suspect to be a "metaphorical" dragon. (The writer could easily have used steam if he truly meant just "steam" and no connection between the two chapters.) Just how likely is it that the second instance of a smoking wound is totally accidental and that we are not meant to pick up on the connection?

[JonisHenryTudor]

Well, Practically every character who bleeds in the entire series, GRRm describes their blood as "black"... GRRm is a big comic book fan & in comic books, black blood = death... Personally, I think that anyone who is ever described as having black blood (& there are dozens of examples) will not live through the series... but that is just a guess based on GRRM love of comic books...

& are you sure that these are the only two times that we have seen a wound 'smoke' or steam??? I think that happens quite a bit in the books as well...

I have just finished FfC in the process of re-reading the series. There were no smoking wounds in feast, and I do not recall there being any in the first three.

If there are, enter them. I would be interested to see the context in which they appear.

[ChaosImprisonateMe]

I feel like Jon's scene is very similar with Danny's scene in the pit with her dragon. It wouldn't make sense for him to warg or die.

[Johnny Snowball]

Now I haven't read the books dozens of times like some folks but from what I gathered from my readings and trying to anticipate GRRM and seeing intriguing thoughts and theories on the internet I believe every one is right to an extent.

1. I believe Jon is probably banged up and in need of aid and thats why Mel is at the wall. I don't like the idea of resurrecting Jon but it is very likely especially if the whole "vows are some real shit not to be messed with" plays a part in Martins world.

2. The only real plausible smoke and salt resurrection I see happening would be in the food stores just because I haven't really seen any other theory that supports this that would allow an average reader a link to go "oh i see what he did there! ok i gotcha!" with out GRRM putting smoke and salt in all caps when he did it.

3. As far as the warging things goes I will be extremely disappointed in GRRM if Jon has to live in Ghost for longer than a few chapters. I think the idea of Jon running around being Ghost like Varymyr being in One-eye is kinda shitty given how important Jon has been to the story so far

4. The theory the others attack CB around the same time is interesting. Till recently i thought it was kind of a stretch but who knows. the naysayer thinks It is too early for the Others to just crash the party mostly because there are other pieces in the North let alone the South and East that I think will get resolved before they hit the scene. I could see it happening just t make Jon's vows mute due to the destruction of the NW but that could happen later and have the same effect.

I could see several different scenarios playing out but mostly I see a mix of all them happening from Jon getting injured badly and blacking out and having to warg ghost, his buddies save his body, he stays in ghost till his body is brought back form the brink of death.

Jon is hurt pretty bad but the others come and fuck shit up and cause mass confusion. Jon is carted off somewhere maybe the wyrmways or maybe the coastline at the bay of seals (lol idk just making it up) and gets resurrected by a fire ritual and realizes he is a targ

At the end of the day I think the true ending to this epic cliffhanger wont be near as stretched as some people think (tears and smoking wounds?) but it will use pieces of most of these thoughts and theories.

Sorry for the long post just haven't ever shared my thoughts on this bad boy. Maybe some will agree :dunno:

[BalerionTheCat]

(But there you go.. Balerion sees Mel as more than human..I see her as less than..)

I gave a short answer this morning before going to work. Because you completely took wrong, what I wanted to say about Jon. And I took that bad. Because I love this character beyond reasonable. Reading your post again, you were only speaking of Melisandre. I'm still angry you were believing I may like something in her. But no matter. let's forget that.

As for the Gods, I don't think the gods really exist in the way that many of us, or the characters, would mean by the term.

Concerning the gods.

Who do you think resurrected Dondarrion?

Thoros? That drunkard, failed priests. By his own magical power?

Bloodraven? This man cannot fix Bran legs, how could he resurrect someone? And the Old Gods are supposed to be powerless in the South. How would BR influences also Essos?

Moqorro or some super Red Priest, or some faraway Shadowbinder? And for what purpose? And why doing it again and again?

Or do you believe there was no purpose, no mind behind it all? Like the rain.

And who controls the Long Night? Like the rain?

IMO, Bloodraven has much more knowledge than Jojen or Bran, but he is still mostly a man. He has not much more power than them. And his power is more in intelligence and reading the future than mighty magic, like resurrecting people.

The plan started thousands of years ago, much before Bloodraven's birth. A mind community of Children greenseers may do that, or gods from the legends, or whoever. But whatever its nature, this whoever is as good as a god power wise.