Why I believe Jon is NOT in need of resurrection/warging

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Good post OP, I've always believed that Jon never felt the fourth blade because there never was a fourth blade, there's chaos but surely some people and Ghost would notice the Lord Commander being attacked after an exchange that lasts around 10-15 seconds. I still think Jon is probably fairly badly injured, but I don't think it will necessarily take anything supernatural to heal him.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I would think that first statement to be wrong. Not that you nor I would really know how sports reporters would describe it. I'm sure it has been said before though. I'm not a big sports nut so I'd not know offhand.

We don't know his bloodline is Targaryen yet. Also, it just happens to be a central character experiencing this assault. They tend to be more descriptive than nights watch #23456787 just fell off the wall. :drunk:

I watch sports regularly, and many commentators refer to athletes in this way. Especially American football analysis when the camera moves to players on the bench who just came off the field of play. John Madden was famous for commenting on the steam pouring off the big lineman....he had a thing for lineman....

But you also need to consider one thing. Martin also knows that inserting this word would have significance. It wasn't done on accident.

[BalerionTheCat]

It is rather symbolic that smoke is pouring from a wound that is centrally located on the body, or as we refer to it "i have a pain deep down here" or something similar. Deep within, Jon is a Targ. The belly shot struck him at his core and releasing the first tangible hint that Jon at his core is a Targ.

It is Jon POV. His perceptions are probably altered. Steam could look like smoke given his current state.

But assuming it is really smoke. Then something is really not normal. Big magic, No one catches fire spontaneously. If you're assuming Jon's blood is burning, that he is taking some dragon-like quality, like Drogon in a previous chapter:

His spear remained in Drogon’s back, wobbling as the dragon beat his wings. Smoke rose from the wound.

It is madder than imagining Jon is dead. But why not? Not that I believe it.

[JonisHenryTudor]

It is Jon POV. His perceptions are probably altered. Steam could look like smoke given his current state.

But assuming it is really smoke. Then something is really not normal. Big magic, No one catches fire spontaneously. If you're assuming Jon's blood is burning, that he is taking some dragon-like quality, like Drogon in a previous chapter:

His spear remained in Drogon’s back, wobbling as the dragon beat his wings. Smoke rose from the wound.

It is madder than imagining Jon is dead. But why not? Not that I believe it.

Considering the importance of smoke in the story, Martin probably would not use it carelessly. Also considering Jon's neck is exposed the most, it would seem that wound would smoke or steam. It does not. Yet a wound covered in several layers and at the core of his body, suddenly begins smoking. I don't buy that this is a mishap on Martin's part, and he just decided to use a buzz word with a character suspected of being "special".

That would be akin to blue roses popping up needlessly. Or rather blue roses growing on Lyanna's tomb, and then arguing that it has no meaning/significance.

[Helikzhan]

It is Jon POV. His perceptions are probably altered. Steam could look like smoke given his current state.

But assuming it is really smoke. Then something is really not normal. Big magic, No one catches fire spontaneously. If you're assuming Jon's blood is burning, that he is taking some dragon-like quality, like Drogon in a previous chapter:

His spear remained in Drogon’s back, wobbling as the dragon beat his wings. Smoke rose from the wound.

It is madder than imagining Jon is dead. But why not? Not that I believe it.

The statement is different. Smoke rose from the wound. Is without a condition. It's midday, warm and smoke in this context is as it appears. We know that is smoke.

This clearly is different than indicating a cold dark night in the context of what is seen. If the environment conditions were irrelevant, GRRM wouldn't have put them there.

[Julia H.]

In the cold night air the wound was smoking.

Now let's see a Dany chapter in ADwD:

His spear remained in Drogon's back, wobbling as the dragon beat his wings. Smoke rose from the wound.

Since the cold and the steam were mentioned above, just let me clarify what the weather is like in Meereen that day:

The bricks will soon be baking in the sun, thought Dany. Down on the sands, the fighters will feel the heat through the soles of their sandals.

Well, not exactly wintry. As far as I know, Drogon's wound and Jon's wound are the only wounds in the series described as smoking (though we see many different wounds in all sorts of climates). The climate of the North and that of Meereen are very different, so the conclusion that it's the cold that makes steam look like smoke in Jon's case does not seem very strong, as the same could hardly be said about Drogon. When there are only two wounds in the whole series that smoke, then there must be a connection between them, and it is obviously not the climate. What is more, we know that one of these cases is a magical phenomenon. It is unlikely that GRRM would use the same image just in order to inaccurately describe a totally unrelated phenomenon. After all, what would be the point in describing steam as smoke, when we have already seen that a wound can really smoke?

The smoking is confirmed in the same Dany chapter twice:

His blood was smoking, too, where it dripped upon the ground.

And it is here that we get the magical explanation, and the magic is also explicitly associated with a human being:

Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him, smoking where it dripped onto the scorched sands. He is fire made flesh, she thought, and so am I.

And so is Jon. The connection could hardly be clearer.

[JonisHenryTudor]

In the cold night air the wound was smoking.

Now let's see a Dany chapter in ADwD:

His spear remained in Drogon's back, wobbling as the dragon beat his wings. Smoke rose from the wound.

Since the cold and the steam were mentioned above, just let me clarify what the weather is like in Meereen that day:

The bricks will soon be baking in the sun, thought Dany. Down on the sands, the fighters will feel the heat through the soles of their sandals.

Well, not exactly wintry. As far as I know, Drogon's wound and Jon's wound are the only wounds in the series described as smoking (though we see many different wounds in all sorts of climates). The climate of the North and that of Meereen are very different, so the conclusion that it's the cold that makes steam look like smoke in Jon's case does not seem very strong, as the same could hardly be said about Drogon. When there are only two wounds in the whole series that smoke, then there must be a connection between them, and it is obviously not the climate. What is more, we know that one of these cases is a magical phenomenon. It is unlikely that GRRM would use the same image just in order to inaccurately describe a totally unrelated phenomenon. After all, what would be the point in describing steam as smoke, when we have already seen that a wound can really smoke?

The smoking is confirmed in the same Dany chapter twice:

His blood was smoking, too, where it dripped upon the ground.

And it is here that we get the magical explanation, and the magic is also explicitly associated with a human being:

Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him, smoking where it dripped onto the scorched sands. He is fire made flesh, she thought, and so am I.

And so is Jon. The connection could hardly be clearer.

Thank you for all of that^

I should also point out that that scene occurred before Jon's FTW moment. Immediately after the Drogon scene, we get a Jon chapter, and then "the" Jon Chapter.

This might be a stretch, but Drogon is black and red. Jon is cloaked in black. Jon's red is still an "unknown", and red is the color of the Targaryen Dragon. Jon is cloaked in black, and fathered by a Red Dragon thus his blood is red (not in the literal sense). He is red and black. I am not suggesting that Drogon's wounds foreshadowed Jon's, but there are parallels. It is more than just a coincidence that the dragon and Jon share colors, and in the same books both have smoking wounds when every other wound just bleeds.

Considering the last bit, it is an interesting placement of chapters to have Jon come immediately after Dany's final chapter in Meereen. Then a slue of chapters in between and finally the FTW chapter. It is almost as if Martin hurt drogon, who happens to be colored the same as Jon is, and then have his wound smoke. Then immediately after have a Jon chapter.

Such that: "Here is a black and red dragon. He is hurt, his wound smokes. Now here is a Jon chapter, who also happens to be black and red. Blah blah blah. Another Jon chapter, Jon is stabbed by opposition, and look his wound is smoking as well".

[Helikzhan]

In the cold night air the wound was smoking.

Now let's see a Dany chapter in ADwD:

His spear remained in Drogon's back, wobbling as the dragon beat his wings. Smoke rose from the wound.

Since the cold and the steam were mentioned above, just let me clarify what the weather is like in Meereen that day:

The bricks will soon be baking in the sun, thought Dany. Down on the sands, the fighters will feel the heat through the soles of their sandals.

Well, not exactly wintry. As far as I know, Drogon's wound and Jon's wound are the only wounds in the series described as smoking (though we see many different wounds in all sorts of climates). The climate of the North and that of Meereen are very different, so the conclusion that it's the cold that makes steam look like smoke in Jon's case does not seem very strong, as the same could hardly be said about Drogon. When there are only two wounds in the whole series that smoke, then there must be a connection between them, and it is obviously not the climate. What is more, we know that one of these cases is a magical phenomenon. It is unlikely that GRRM would use the same image just in order to inaccurately describe a totally unrelated phenomenon. After all, what would be the point in describing steam as smoke, when we have already seen that a wound can really smoke?

The smoking is confirmed in the same Dany chapter twice:

His blood was smoking, too, where it dripped upon the ground.

And it is here that we get the magical explanation, and the magic is also explicitly associated with a human being:

Black blood was flowing from the wound where the spear had pierced him, smoking where it dripped onto the scorched sands. He is fire made flesh, she thought, and so am I.

And so is Jon. The connection could hardly be clearer.

I'll reiterate. If the environment conditions were irrelevant, GRRM wouldn't have put them there.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I'll reiterate. If the environment conditions were irrelevant, GRRM wouldn't have put them there.

Environment has nothing to do with it. It is Martin's emphasis on the use of the word smoke. Aside from Drogon, nobody else in the story suffers a smokey wound.

The scene also needs to be kept in context with Jon's "mysterious" backstory.

Also in the fight between Qhorin and Jon, we know it occurred when it was very cold. Yet no smoke or steam in the gushing wounds. Jon's smokey wound is very unique outside of Drogon's; it is not coincidental or accidental.

[jdcaesar]

I feel that killing Jon Snow really cuts off a huge chunk of the series. It makes more sense for him to be alive and as a human.

Unless you kill him and resurrect him now free of his Night's Watch vows.

[Julia H.]

I'll reiterate. If the environment conditions were irrelevant, GRRM wouldn't have put them there.

The environment conditions are described in both chapters. Since they are different, the only logical conclusion (IMO) is that the smoke is not the result of cold or hot environment. Totally relevant.

The text makes a connection between two identical occurrences that we never see anywhere else in the books. In the (chronologically) first case, the significance is explicitly explained. In the second one, it is left to the reader to recognize it on his/her own - because the reader has already been told.

[hallam]

Unless he dies and is resurrected, he won't be freed from his vows to the Watch.

Alternatively he can get the whole watch killed.

I think the OP is right that Jon has not died -yet.

And that is what matters. GRRM can get away with pretty much anything, mel or no mel. Plenty of wildings, they must have a few mages among them.

D&D may have a much harder problem. They have even less magic to play with and are desperate to avoid Deus Ex Machina situations.

The real question should be not whether or how he survives but why he needs stabbing in the first place. What is the plot arc reason that demands it? I think that is going to be part of the Jon's parentage reveal and the shock at the end of the episode is going to be a transformation in Jon's appearance.

[Helikzhan]

The environment conditions are described in both chapters. Since they are different, the only logical conclusion (IMO) is that the smoke is not the result of cold or hot environment. Totally relevant.

The text makes a connection between two identical occurrences that we never see anywhere else in the books. In the (chronologically) first case, the significance is explicitly explained. In the second one, it is left to the reader to recognize it on his/her own - because the reader has already been told.

Actually they are seen in other books.

Example from the first book:

Of all the rooms in Winterfell's Great Keep, Catelyn's bedchambers were the hottest. She seldom had to light a fire. The castle had been built over natural hot springs, and the scalding waters rushed through its walls and chambers like blood through a man's body, driving chill from the stone halls, filling the glass gardens with a moist warmth, keeping the earth from freezing. Open pools smoked day and night in a dozen small courtyards. That was a little thing, in summer; in winter, it was the difference between life and death.

So there is precedent for him to consider steam to appear as though it were smoke.

The conditions in Jon's smoking wound are relevant. It is cold and dark. Steam appears like smoke under those conditions.

[Julia H.]

Those pools smoke in summer, too, though, not only in cold weather and not only in darkness. It could be a sign of another magical phenomenon perhaps. If I remember correctly, there has been speculation about the magical potential of the hot pools of Winterfell.

Anyway, wounds do not smoke anywhere else in the books, and the two examples of smoking wounds are only a few chapters away from each other. We are also given the phrase "fire made flesh", immediately associated with a human being. More precisely, we get a connection between a wounded dragon and a human in association with the smoking wound. Then, only a few chapters later, we have a human being with a smoking wound. I don't see how the smoking pools mentioned in the first book can be considered more relevant with regard to the smoking wound in Jon's last ADwD chapter than the other smoking wound mentioned just a few chapters before Jon's wound.

[Helikzhan]

Those pools smoke in summer, too, though, not only in cold weather and not only in darkness. It could be a sign of another magical phenomenon perhaps. If I remember correctly, there has been speculation about the magical potential of the hot pools of Winterfell.

Anyway, wounds do not smoke anywhere else in the books, and the two examples of smoking wounds are only a few chapters away from each other. We are also given the phrase "fire made flesh", immediately associated with a human being. More precisely, we get a connection between a wounded dragon and a human in association with the smoking wound. Then, only a few chapters later, we have a human being with a smoking wound. I don't see how the smoking pools mentioned in the first book can be considered more relevant with regard to the smoking wound in Jon's last ADwD chapter than the other smoking wound mentioned just a few chapters before Jon's wound.

You're reaching now. The point of this discussion is whether or not GRRM has ever referred to steam as smoke. This has been proven.

FYI: Winterfell is still cold in the summer. It isn't King's Landing by any stretch.

[bemused]

You're reaching now. The point of this discussion is whether or not GRRM has ever referred to steam as smoke. This has been proven.

FYI: Winterfell is still cold in the summer. It isn't King's Landing by any stretch.

I don't think that should be the point (if it is). The point is, it's Jon's POV . Though he's unaware of his full biological heritage, we believe he's (euphemistically) a dragon as well as a wolf, and GRRM is alluding to it here. Unlike Drogon, whose wounds actually smoke, I don't think Jon's wound is literally smoking, but it's fitting for Jon to think of it that way. (Neither Dany's burned hands nor her blood is seen to smoke, although she thinks she's also "fire made flesh".)...

And knowing the way GRRM plays with words, a modern term we're familiar with, "fire in the belly" (implying determination, desire to prevail, stamina, etc.) might also come to mind.

ETA: I think we can take these to be literal :

Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her.

She was weeping, and her tears were flame.

But that's Mel, who may be undead herself.. or at least, no longer fully human. Both Jon and Dany are human...and both generally care for people and their welfare.. (Mel does not.) I don't expect this to change for Jon or Dany, no matter what hard choices they have to make or whether their plans sometimes end in failure.

[Julia H.]

You're reaching now. The point of this discussion is whether or not GRRM has ever referred to steam as smoke. This has been proven.

FYI: Winterfell is still cold in the summer. It isn't King's Landing by any stretch.

I thought the point of the discussion was whether the smoke necessarily meant an especially grave wound (the heat of Jon's inner organs coming out) or something else. Drogon's smoking wound suggests something magical rather than otherwise, unless Drogon's wound was steam looking like smoke, too - in the hot climate of Meereen. You have found a description of smoking pools four and a half books earlier and you seem to think that it is totally relevant to Jon's wound - but you never explain how the much more similar and much closer image of another smoking wound (the only other smoking wound) together with the magic it implies is not relevant.

Re: Winterfell in summer: A cold summer is nowhere near as cold as the area of the Wall at the time when Jon is stabbed. The text you quote says the pools smoke day and night, summer and winter. (It was you who emphasized the importance of the cold and the dark.)

I do think that Jon's wound may actually smoke - after all, we have heard of magic earlier in the series. It is possible even if it does not happen every time a Targaryen is wounded: We know that Dany was fireproof only once. But I'm completely convinced that the image is somehow related to Drogon's smoking wound (literally or symbolically, it is another question) and that the reader is meant to pick up on the connection.

(Incidentally, after Drogon's smoking black blood is described, I mean right on the next page, Jon is called - among other things - black-hearted by Tormund. Who knows, even that may not be a total coincidence.)

[Helikzhan]

Drogon's blood temperature would be far hotter because he's a dragon after all. His internals are conditioned for far higher temperatures. So in a hot climate like Mereen, a very hot drop of dragon's blood will still give off smoke even on a hot day.

Read this: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2824124/

During surgery under general anesthesia, thermal imbalances within the patient’s body are common. These imbalances are caused by a variety of factors, including exposure to a cold operating environment and heat loss from surgical incisions.

So biologically speaking holes in our bodies will release body heat. That heat converts to steam in a cold environment and becomes pronounced in a cold and dark environment. Opaque enough to look like smoke.

The prefix on Jon's smoking wound is important. Why prefix that statement with cold and dark and then tell us what it looks like? Emphasis is why. He's not telling you that Jon is about to start breathing fire.

[JonisHenryTudor]

I thought the point of the discussion was whether the smoke necessarily meant an especially grave wound (the heat of Jon's inner organs coming out) or something else. Drogon's smoking wound suggests something magical rather than otherwise, unless Drogon's wound was steam looking like smoke, too - in the hot climate of Meereen. You have found a description of smoking pools four and a half books earlier and you seem to think that it is totally relevant to Jon's wound - but you never explain how the much more similar and much closer image of another smoking wound (the only other smoking wound) together with the magic it implies is not relevant.

Re: Winterfell in summer: A cold summer is nowhere near as cold as the area of the Wall at the time when Jon is stabbed. The text you quote says the pools smoke day and night, summer and winter. (It was you who emphasized the importance of the cold and the dark.)

I do think that Jon's wound may actually smoke - after all, we have heard of magic earlier in the series. It is possible even if it does not happen every time a Targaryen is wounded: We know that Dany was fireproof only once. But I'm completely convinced that the image is somehow related to Drogon's smoking wound (literally or symbolically, it is another question) and that the reader is meant to pick up on the connection.

(Incidentally, after Drogon's smoking black blood is described, I mean right on the next page, Jon is called - among other things - black-hearted by Tormund. Who knows, even that may not be a total coincidence.)

For that reason I believe it to be actually smoking to add to a limited magical component.

But smoking aside there is still no blood, which ties into the initial post. The smoke is the focus of the wound, not blood or even gut-wrenching pain ;).

However, I will take a stab at the hot springs example. I won't draw on the idea that a dragon lies beneath Winterfell. However, let's add some context here.

I will keep it to brief points to maintain brevity, especially since everyone knows the larger story behind them:

-R+L=J

-Lyanna is buried with her ancestors in the crypts of Winterfell which are below the Castle as well.

- Jon received visions of the crypt; something is there he needs to know; sees stone kings on throne

Smoke - smoke is associated with fire. It is the byproduct of fire. In this story, fire is literally a symbol of House Targ. Whether by "Fire and Blood" or the very fact that dragons spit fire. The byproduct of dragon fire or the aftermath is smoke. Dump water(ice) on a camp fire and you will get smoke.

Now Helik - You brought up the smokey pools. Those I will agree are likely steamy. However, the use of smoke is not by accident. Lyanna is buried there, and Jon needs to get there. Why else? The byproduct of Lyanna and Rhaegar is Jon, or ice and fire made smoke. Smoke is what it is. Fire can't kill it, and water cant destroy it; yet the combination of both made it. Underneath lies lyanna with a secret. Now the pools I doubt have anything to do with this other than a subtle "tipping of the hat". Since both the crypts and pools lie underneath the caste, there is a slight hint there. Cat sees steamy pools, but add in the context of Jon, Ned, Lyanna, and Rhaegar, and suddenly the smoke on the pools becomes a direct nod to Jon's secret that rest underneath Winterfell. Heat and water make steam. Lyanna and Rhaegar made smoke, or in other words the secret of Jon (smoke) lies underneath Winterfell. The smokey pools that happened to be located underneath the keep is a subtle nod to this.

Still it all comes back to one thing. Smoke in all three cases is tied to Jon whether indirectly or directly.

Even with the Mel scene- blood "black and smoking" - Jon is black, and Martin says that he is smoking. Martin is not JRRT, but he is very careful with his words.

So to recap:

Drogon - black and red and smoking from a wound

Jon - black but deep within he is also red (targ) and smoking from a wound

Mel - blood ran black and smoking; also at the wall and stated just before she mentions seeing Jon Snow in the fire

Hot Springs - smoking; secret of Jon's past in buried in the crypt; mind you, Jon thinks he knows who his father is, he does not know who his mother is; she is underneath Winterfell with her secret.

These 4 instances where smoke is used to define something all tie into Jon. Jon's smoking wound is not a coincidence or the result of Martin trying to use different descriptive words. Again...smoke, not blood, poured from his wound.

[Helikzhan]

So now the hot springs under Winterfell are part of the conspiracy?

I'm done.