Heresy 169

[Urrax2]

Sorry lost me. Maybe I really am dimwitted this morning...

James Oliver Rigney, pen name Robert Jordan, wrote the Wheel of Time books.

[Urrax2]

Triple post.

[Urrax2]

Triple post.

[Black Crow]

And what I am arguing (and to an extent so is Matthew) is that not one character is divorced from the path what made him. To discount the entire history of the influences that bring a character to their present state is something we have never seen in these books. No character, other than those whose past we don't know about, either in the 5 books or in the short stories, is not a product -- either through rejection of, embracing of or questioning the veracity -- their past.

I understand that BR is this books version of Kurtz. And I agree with a lot of what you've shown in that essay. However, that doesn't mean it is both a 100 percent fit or that it indicates his forward trajectory. I get that he is, possibly, a puppet head for the Singer's game and that all he longs for is release. There is also the possibility that Bran was lured there in order to fulfill this and release BR. I think to limit our interpetation to only this aspect is to blinker not only the discussion around here but also the text.

Ah, here again we're slightly at cross purposes rather than in opposition. Before the Heart of Darkness business came up interpreting Bloodraven was difficult. We started off with a Targaryen Great Bastard in the D&E stories, a pretty well-defined character seen as a Targaryen loyalist. Then we met him again in the cave. And there we had a puzzler. Was he the same Bloodraven and if so what the hell was he doing there, or was it his true allegiance all along and he was really Bryn Blackwood of Raventree Hall.

The Kurtz interpretation provides an answer of sorts and allows the argument that he has changed or rather been changed and may be as much a prisoner of his circumstances as the master of them.

[Black Crow]

Triple post.

Site's playing up again. Just click once to post then return to the ADwD page and back into the thread where you'll find it realoly did post.

[Sly Wren]

That after all was the point about Kurtz; he went to Africa as a brilliant, learned man; a paragon of civilisation standing head and shoulders above the rest of the wretched pilgrims, but then turned, abandoned and rejected civilisation to become more barbaric than the barabarians; and there too we have an echo of Bloodraven, turning against his Targaryen upbringing to become the embodiment of the old gods of Westeros. In that sense Kurtz, although dying is very dangerous indeed because the dead man in the tree is Kurtz not Bloodraven and that in turn means that Bran has not been groomed and summoned to the cave to be the saviour of a humanity Kurtz has rejected.

True. And, considering of some of what you, Matthew, and Yield have been discussing--seems like the exploration of what happens when you have an non-idealized person enter the Heart of Darkness. Kurtz seemed completely sold on the colonial ideal--until he wrote "kill all the brutes." But that idealism is part of what drove the "kill all the brutes" and all the crazy. He couldn't handle the clash between ideals and reality in a sane way.

I'm still new to all this, but I don't see Bloodraven as ever being as high minded and idealistic as Kurtz. Jojen, Meera, and Bran all seem more idealistic--am wondering especially how Jojen's going to deal with the clash between reality and dream.

The clash between ideals and reality both helped Kurtz descend into the horror AND retain his fear of it. That's part of what helped Marlow get him out of there (plus Kurtz was barely alive). If BR was never that idealistic--is he going to break? Is he going to dig in deeper? Just think the twist on a non-idealistic person in the Kurtz role will be very interesting in figuring out if Bran and the scoobies can somehow overcome BR and Leaf.

[Sly Wren]

You know, it makes me think on the pact made long ago. Did the First Men have a Kurtz-like arrangement with the Children? Did they themselves present themselves as gods? Were certain arrangements made to present themselves as such and over time preserve it?

I can see this--if they did cause the Long Night and were proposing a solution--they'd have seemed pretty god-like to a lot of people. Might have made a similar arrangement easier to finagle as part of the Pact. Definitely possible.

Plus even the narrator of the World Book has some respect for their abilities. The stories of the potentially god-like abilities of the Children clearly lasted. Assume they didn't just come from the cool armor.

[Sly Wren]

Only if you are taking the parallel of the cauldron being broken as what his sacrifice will mean.

First, I don't think his being killed before a heart tree as a sacrifice, but rather an execution. To me a sacrifice would be a willing participant, Theon doesn't seem to be willing to die at all. He jumped out the pot (no pun intended) and into the fire here. From a psycho's prisoner to a man so Just that he boarders on Autism. Given a choice I'm pretty sure he'd leave there faster than a dieter being offered guilt free junk food.

Second, there is no link to the source of whatever is raising the wights (I personally believe it's the Cold.) Nor is there any evidence that an execution before a heart tree will stop this. If anything there is an example of it happening in Bran's vision as a matter of course. Or at the very least as something that had a ritual significance. If say it was routinely done in the past to stave off the resurrection of the dead, then logically the dead should have rising for generations now.

Third, we have still to find out why the First Men did this. Was it so that the old gods can witness and judge the justness of the execution? In actual fact we don't know if it was a sacrifice or an execution. Either way was it because they had knowledge of the blood helping the weirwood or giving the tree sustenance? Meaning perhaps it is a necessary part of activating certain powers of the Greenseer that we don't know about and that Bran does. Maybe with the blood he will see clearer of have a tangible link of some kind, to the world of men and thus helping him open a portal. Or was it some tradition/part of the Pact that has since been long forgotten? Who knows. But there is more than a hint of sympathetic blood magic going on here.

Edited to clarify a thought.

Didn't see this before. And I like your take on Theon--agreed. He's not at all ready to sacrifice himself--don't know if he's too miserable or not miserable enough.

And you're right about the blood sacrifice. Don't yet know what exactly it's purpose is, let alone if it would have any effect on the "cauldron" at all. Which kinda makes me hope Theon finds some way to keep going. Need to find out how to break down the wight-machine/cold-mist. And I kinda want Theon to be in a state to sacrifice himself to do it. Which will take time. And thus probably won't happen.

Still, am wondering about Jojen or Meera--they are in crazy-skull-cave central--if any place will give info about wightiness, this should be it. What happens if either of them realizes what they've brought Bran to the cave for (assuming they don't already know)? Assuming (big assumption) willing sacrifice might have an effect, they are both much more noble and sane than Theon . . .Maybe.

[TheMiddleHero]

Still, am wondering about Jojen or Meera--they are in crazy-skull-cave central--if any place will give info about wightiness, this should be it. What happens if either of them realizes what they've brought Bran to the cave for (assuming they don't already know)? Assuming (big assumption) willing sacrifice might have an effect, they are both much more noble and sane than Theon . . .Maybe.

Think they do already know and in a way, feel bad about it:

“The secrets of the old gods,” said Jojen Reed. Food and fire and rest had helped restore him

after the ordeals of their journey, but he seemed sadder now, sullen, with a weary, haunted look about

the eyes. “Truths the First Men knew, forgotten now in Winterfell … but not in the wet wild. We live

closer to the green in our bogs and crannogs, and we remember. Earth and water, soil and stone, oaks

and elms and willows, they were here before us all and will still remain when we are gone.”

“So will you,” said Meera. That made Bran sad. What if I don’t want to remain when you are

gone? he almost asked, but he swallowed the words unspoken. He was almost a man grown, and he did

not want Meera to think he was some weepy babe. “Maybe you could be greenseers too,” he said

instead.

“No, Bran.” Now Meera sounded sad. “It is given to a few to drink of that green fountain whilst

still in mortal flesh, to hear the whisperings of the leaves and see as the trees see, as the gods see,” said

Jojen. “Most are not so blessed. The gods gave me only greendreams. My task was to get you here. My

part in this is done.”

[redrose]

I think ts worth taking a closer look at Brans statement

" men would not be sad. Men would be wroth. Men would hate and swear bloody vengeance. The singers sing sad songs, where men would fight and kill". Bran 111 DWD

On first reading this I thought yep, men would go to war to prevent their long dwindling and the CoTF would hug trees and sing, here lies the difference between the two races. But this is not what the text is telling us. The CoTF went to war against men when they first ventured into westeros. Why would they no longer fight for their survival? Is leafs little speech on the long dwindling of the old races just resignation to their fate? Have they seen their fate, through the weirwoods? Which brings me to the weirwoods, I think it's Jojen who states that the weirwoods are the old gods and we know that as part of the original pact that the FM agreed to cease cutting down the weirwoods trees. If you know you are facing extinction do you leave the Weirwoods at the mercy of men?

[Black Crow]

Agreed, which is why I've suggested it's not just a deception but an enticement - an enticement for Bran to use his powers to fight on their behalf.

[Black Crow]

I can see this--if they did cause the Long Night and were proposing a solution--they'd have seemed pretty god-like to a lot of people. Might have made a similar arrangement easier to finagle as part of the Pact. Definitely possible.

Plus even the narrator of the World Book has some respect for their abilities. The stories of the potentially god-like abilities of the Children clearly lasted. Assume they didn't just come from the cool armor.

Using "dark magics" to bring down the Hammer of the Waters isn't so far removed from bringing on the Long Night and whilst there's obviously room to doubt whether in reality they were capable of doing so, they were obviously reckoned by men to be capable of it.

There we come back to a fairly fundamental chicken and egg sort of question. Way back whenever it was the supposed defeat of the Others and the Ending of the Long Night appear to be simultaneous. Was this because the three-fingered tree huggers gave the last hero a magic sword with which to defeat the blue-eyed lot and once they were defeated the sun came out again, or did they turn off the winter leaving the walkers and the wights vulnerable in the warm sunrise? If so did their dark magics start it in the first place?

[Lord Ravenstark]

Its certainly something we've discussed in the past both in terms of a blood sacrifice and a binding in servitude, which is where we've speculated the Stark connection to Winter may come in. Another point worth considering in this connection is the identity of the last hero. He was quite literally the last of thirteen heroes who set out on a Parsifal-like quest. Eventually the children helped him, but we don't know how they helped him and the most likely reason we don't know his name is that he never came back.

I wonder why thirteen heroes. We know there are other cultures with tales about the Long Night, with heroes like the unnamed Rhoynar hero, YiTish monk-tailed woman, Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser...

For obvious reasons, I believe if a hero was really responsible for the victory over the War of the Dawn, it was a Westerosi First Man.

Or maybe the War for the Dawn was fought all over the world and all the other heroes fell in battle, including Azor Ahai yet the last hero was the one who was able to persevere.

As for how they managed to communicate, at least three of them are from culture with strong magical elements, the last hero, a first men with either the power of ice or the power of the earth, from the children. Azor Ahai and the power of fire. The Rhoynar hero with water magic. At least both of those three have confirmed power to communicate through great distances.

Also, I wonder where did the First Men live before they crossed the Arm. Maybe even Valyrian Peninsula, who knows.

[DarkRose_9]

Does anyone have any thoughts about this theory: http://endgameofthrones.com/2015/05/20/icebrandon/

Basically Bran is an ice dragon being manipulated by bloodraven. A lot of it sounds really out there, but there are some points here and there that are compelling.

[Black Crow]

I think "really out there" sums it up pretty well

[Black Crow]

I wonder why thirteen heroes. We know there are other cultures with tales about the Long Night, with heroes like the unnamed Rhoynar hero, YiTish monk-tailed woman, Hyrkoon the Hero, Azor Ahai, Yin Tar, Neferion, and Eldric Shadowchaser...

For obvious reasons, I believe if a hero was really responsible for the victory over the War of the Dawn, it was a Westerosi First Man.

Or maybe the War for the Dawn was fought all over the world and all the other heroes fell in battle, including Azor Ahai yet the last hero was the one who was able to persevere.

As for how they managed to communicate, at least three of them are from culture with strong magical elements, the last hero, a first men with either the power of ice or the power of the earth, from the children. Azor Ahai and the power of fire. The Rhoynar hero with water magic. At least both of those three have confirmed power to communicate through great distances.

Also, I wonder where did the First Men live before they crossed the Arm. Maybe even Valyrian Peninsula, who knows.

As to the first I'd be very sceptical of one hero doing the lot and would be more inclined to see the whole business not simply as the Long Night, but rather as the struggle of men against magic, or as Moorcock used to draw it, against chaos and that there is and never was one "enemy" which is why the stories are different.

As to the second, who knows. Its possible but I'd tend to see their arrival in Westeros simply in terms of migration from Essos in general rather than a particular part of it, and for no other purpose than land. It has been plausibly suggested that at least some of them were horse-lords.

[Lord Ravenstark]

Does anyone have any thoughts about this theory: http://endgameofthrones.com/2015/05/20/icebrandon/

Basically Bran is an ice dragon being manipulated by bloodraven. A lot of it sounds really out there, but there are some points here and there that are compelling.

Out there... that's... I don't know. I think this guy manages to be... the concept of insanity.

Notes apart, the idea of Bloodraven wanting the "seed and soul" of little boys make him look even more creepy.

[Lord Ravenstark]

As to the first I'd be very sceptical of one hero doing the lot and would be more inclined to see the whole business not simply as the Long Night, but rather as the struggle of men against magic, or as Moorcock used to draw it, against chaos and that there is and never was one "enemy" which is why the stories are different.

As to the second, who knows. Its possible but I'd tend to see their arrival in Westeros simply in terms of migration from Essos in general rather than a particular part of it, and for no other purpose than land. It has been plausibly suggested that at least some of them were horse-lords.

Well, I just like the idea of ice and fire living side by side, even though it was before both ever assumed their roles (valyrians taking the fire mantle, first men taking the ice one). Still, only a dream, though.

[Black Crow]

Well, I just like the idea of ice and fire living side by side, even though it was before both ever assumed their roles (valyrians taking the fire mantle, first men taking the ice one). Still, only a dream, though.

I think that its more a question of Ice and Fire representing the extremes of magic and that the Valyrians embraced the latter somewhere down the line, just as the First men largely embraced the old gods. The Andals after all were pretty keen on burning things but there's no hint of their coming from Valyria.

[wolfmaid7]

You know, it makes me think on the pact made long ago. Did the First Men have a Kurtz-like arrangement with the Children? Did they themselves present themselves as gods? Were certain arrangements made to present themselves as such and over time preserve it?

This is something to consider and one of the reasons why i think the COTF reasonably could have been dupped and why i don't think we should ignore their beliefs on where the greenseers fit for them.It could also mean for a greenseer being looked upon like that is a pretty sweet deal. But it comes down again to the heart of the man in the chair and how he views his role so the outcome can go anyway because the human heart is so fickled and prone to external and internal conflcts that could sway it.I hate to bring back my Native Indian analogy but now in terms of the Aztecs,Hernan Cortes and their belief that he was Quetzalcoatl come again. I get that vibe from the COTF especially when you take into consideration that the faces on the trees looked like men even before the FM arrived. Now if the WB isn't blowing smoke up our asses and Garth Greenhand -another character that followed the Holly king arch- came first and prepared the way for the FM.His relationship with the COTF first and how they saw him could be a jumping off point for the COTF to wrongfully deify men based on a paticular trait.

So in the end what does one do when the natives exalt you?

This is potentially a version of your "greenseers have the real power" theory I think I can go with. If BR is caught up in his own brilliance (real or imagined) and chasing magics, I could see him convincing both the Children and himself that he's spectacular. And the Children also may be using BR and being used by him. (I now have Annie Lennox in my head).

I do think especially all the greenseers in the cave are in some special kind of hell--and I like the idea that BR as potential magic-power-chasing fanatic could have helped triggered additional madness in the cave. Not that BR is the only reason for all this--he's not actually a god. But everyone (including BR) in the cave getting trapped in the mutual belief that he is--that works.

Am now very much hoping Bran in a vision gets to see BR say, "hell yeah I'm god."

Its a possibility this is the kind of symbiotic relationship that formed in truth,they thinking the greenseers are divine and the greenseer being deluded into this.I mean for a people who believe that some of them by virtue of being chosen can be equal with the gods is oh my gosh amazing. In the end i think it all comes down to who has the ability to resist the corruption of the position. To use it not for one or the other but for the benifit of all.Who has the ability the see everyone "othered" and human alike as being no different.

That after all was the point about Kurtz; he went to Africa as a brilliant, learned man; a paragon of civilisation standing head and shoulders above the rest of the wretched pilgrims, but then turned, abandoned and rejected civilisation to become more barbaric than the barabarians; and there too we have an echo of Bloodraven, turning against his Targaryen upbringing to become the embodiment of the old gods of Westeros. In that sense Kurtz, although dying is very dangerous indeed because the dead man in the tree is Kurtz not Bloodraven and that in turn means that Bran has not been groomed and summoned to the cave to be the saviour of a humanity Kurtz has rejected.

BC did you happen to cath the premier of Strange and Norrel lastnight? How did you like it?

Gods no, That one was badly worded by me and I apologise. The point I was trying to make was what was at issue was that Bloodraven as he is now, [although shaped to an extent by his background as a Blackwood of Raventree Hall and latent abilities], is not the same as he was, just as the Kurtz whom Marlow meets is very different from the Kurtz who set out from Europe. What we and Bran encounter in the cave is not Brynden Rivers, as in not no more he aint.

I said this a few times GRRM could go so many ways with this and it would turn out great.I believe to that there's too much melding of souls for BR to be consisdered wholly and souly himself.But i believe enough remains where he's looking at his past,or that could just be the same thing as the wights accessing his memories for Bran's sake to make the illusion convincing that Bran is talking to someone still esemtially with his humanity intact.I think everything Bloodraven was has been added to the collective so it could be a ruse as well.The thing is though and again so hard to see where GRRM is going with this because many possibilities fit.

Is BR at this point a vantriloquist dummy,some remnant of him remains,or is he leading the charge?