Heresy 169

[SerWalterPuffsAlot]

Coldhands is stuck in a sort of limbo; he can't return to the realms of men because the Black Gate [and probably the rest of the Wall] is locked against him, and he's also locked out of the cave of skulls.

As to the Russian, I think that this passage sums it up pretty well and arguably provides an insight into Coldhands if GRRM is indeed drawing on the harlequin:

"I went a little farther," he said, "then still a little farther - till I had gone so far that I don't know how I'll ever get back. Never mind. Plenty time. I can manage..." The glamour of youth enveloped his particoloured rags, his destitution, his lonliness, the essential desolation of his futile wanderings. For months - for years - his life hadn't been worth a day's purchase; and there he was gallantly, thoughtlessly alive, to all appearance indestructible solely by the virtue of his few years and of his unreflecting audacity. I was seduced into something like admiration - like envy. Glamour urged him on, glamour kept him unscathed. He surely wanted nothing from the wilderness but space to breathe in and to push on through. His need was to exist, and to move onwards at the greatest possible risk, and with a maximum of privation. If the absolutely pure, uncalculating, unpractical spirit of adventure had ever ruled a human being, it ruled this be-patched youth. I almost envied him the possession of this modest and clear flame. It seemed to have consumed all thought of self so completely, that, even while he was talking to you, you forgot that it was he - the man before your eyes - who had gone through these things. I did not eny him his devotion to Kurtz, though. He had not meditated over it. It came to him, and he accepted it with a sort of eager fatalism. I must say that to me it appeared about the most dangerous thing in every way he had come upon so far.

. Marlow is describing his feelings toward the Russian how does this sum up anything about CH's for you? If we are going to force this maybe the fact the Russian acts like a young man with out cares "glamour of youth" and the fact CH's wont age because well he's dead. But i really don't see how this can work as a comparison and would lead me to believe he is not drawing from the Russian but maybe he is for patch face they dress similar :)

[Matthew.]

As I recall he was moving off downhill, Bran expressed concern and Leaf shrugged him off with that line that they killed him long ago.

There's no scene of him moving off downhill, we last see him trying to fend off multiple wights.

[Black Crow]

. Marlow is describing his feelings toward the Russian how does this sum up anything about CH's for you? If we are going to force this maybe the fact the Russian acts like a young man with out cares "glamour of youth" and the fact CH's wont age because well he's dead. But i really don't see how this can work as a comparison and would lead me to believe he is not drawing from the Russian but maybe he is for patch face they dress similar :)

Ah well, rags are rags but I fear we'll have to agree to disagree and in the meantime its my bedtime so good night to you and to Matthew and to anybody else who might be listening

[Yield.]

Didn't see this before. And I like your take on Theon--agreed. He's not at all ready to sacrifice himself--don't know if he's too miserable or not miserable enough.

And you're right about the blood sacrifice. Don't yet know what exactly it's purpose is, let alone if it would have any effect on the "cauldron" at all. Which kinda makes me hope Theon finds some way to keep going. Need to find out how to break down the wight-machine/cold-mist. And I kinda want Theon to be in a state to sacrifice himself to do it. Which will take time. And thus probably won't happen.

Still, am wondering about Jojen or Meera--they are in crazy-skull-cave central--if any place will give info about wightiness, this should be it. What happens if either of them realizes what they've brought Bran to the cave for (assuming they don't already know)? Assuming (big assumption) willing sacrifice might have an effect, they are both much more noble and sane than Theon . . .Maybe.

While I agree with Phillip Frye and others (AtS included) that Theon will live on I think it's because it is fitting punishment for him. He spent his life abusing his position with a callus disregard for others and it a sacrifice would be too easy an out for him I feel. Redemption by saving a no one like Jeyne Poole is not enough for me. So most likely he will do something noble like stopping the wightification of the dead.

However if we pull a bit more at that thread you brought up about Coldhands we may find a link that points to how it's done. I can't remember the Harlequin/Russian well enough to begin that analysis but I'm sure you and BC and others are more than up for the job. With a quick refresher I would be too. :)

Mind you Meera is much more likely to do it if she has the opportunity. Jojen won't unless that's what the greendreams tell him to do.

[Voice]

. Marlow is describing his feelings toward the Russian how does this sum up anything about CH's for you? If we are going to force this maybe the fact the Russian acts like a young man with out cares "glamour of youth" and the fact CH's wont age because well he's dead. But i really don't see how this can work as a comparison and would lead me to believe he is not drawing from the Russian but maybe he is for patch face they dress similar :)

It's always been a square peg for a round hole, imo.

It turns out Coldhands is Coldhands, and the Russian is the Russian. The first character is from ASOIAF in which there is a literal Heart of Winter that espouses an actual darkness (in the form of the long night), and the other is from Conrad's Heart of Darkness, in which the titled Heart is a figurative (and often racist) metaphor.

There's no scene of him moving off downhill, we last see him trying to fend off multiple wights.

Just so.

Ah well, rags are rags but I fear we'll have to agree to disagree and in the meantime its my bedtime so good night to you and to Matthew and to anybody else who might be listening

Until the morrow, Good Ser...which will be this evening Pacific Time.

To all this Russian business, BC, I still say you're wasting time on Conrad that could be spent rereading the series under discussion ;)

[Lord Ravenstark]

“The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make ou strong.”

Could Bloodraven have any knowledge in sorcery that uses darkness, other than the usual ice... like shadowbinding?

[wolfmaid7]

“The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make ou strong.”

Could Bloodraven have any knowledge in sorcery that uses darkness, other than the usual ice... like shadowbinding?

Everytime i see this quote i see LF's quote to Sansa about never letting your enemy know who you are.BR's quote evoke that for me especially the aspect of it being your cloak.To me Its about concealment while you do your s**t no one will ever know who you are.They'll blame and have their eyes on a million things but not you.

[redrose]

Thank you for the explanation, I wasn't here when the Kutrz analogy was first brought up. And I agree BR now as to what he was is a puzzler.

The bolded part is what drew me in because we see a repeat happening with Bran. As I listed upthread there are quite a lot of similarities between the two. The largest one to question as far as the motivation of the trees or Singers is why put two such southrons in there. Everyone below the Wall is a southerner, so why not call to Varamyr or some of the ones we're told of in Haggon's group? There seems to be a higher percentage of skinchangers beyond the Wall, why scour the southern part of Westeros? A wildling would have a much greater affinity to the cold as opposed to warmth. Is it strategic? Necessary? Or is it a clue to the Singer's faction?

This is the main reason I'm questioning BRs past and how in it's similarities to Bran it might be clues as to whats really going on here. Just as I find it difficult to believe that Bran would willing betray a sibling, I find it hard to think Brynden as such a loyalist who could he be willing working towards inhalation of his house and blood. See what I mean about such a huge 180?

My take on this is that both BR and Bran are resident in the cave of skulls because of their blood. They both have blood of the first men and their abilities as greenseers will be traced back to the original pact between the CoTF and the FM. I imagine that in order to stop the FM from cutting down the Weirwoods ( old gods) the children had to share some of the magical abilities bestowed on them through the old gods. Having that omniscient presence through the Weirwoods allowed men to see the wisdom of the old gods and thus began the age of heroes where the FM themselves passed over their own faith in order to worship the old gods ( Weirwoods). This was kind of a win for the CoTF as even though they lost most of their lands they did in fact manage to preserve their gods.

Maybe a little more crackpot but I believe the representatives of the FM present at the pact had to perform a blood sacrifice in front of a heart tree in order to wed themselves to the tree ( old gods). I believe this is what Bran saw in his last vision in a DWD where he has just put on his training wheels as a greenseer. If we rewound the clock and got a glimpse of BR putting on his training wheels as a Greenseer I think that he would have seen the first sacrifice at the heart tree in Raventree hall. I can't remember who says it but I believe Bran is told he is a Greenseer because of his blood, which relates to the original pact between the CoTF and the FM.

[JNR]

Where does heresy go from here?...after the last episode and especislly the comments from the mummers showrunners I really don't know what to believe or think is relevant to the end game, which is what heresy is all about. Seems like all the theories have been blown to bits...including R+L=J. I'm really thunderstruck...I kinda feel betrayed by grrm given his supportive comments regarding certain characters... not sure where this goes...to say the show is show and the books are the books is really disceptive to be honest...heresy has some hard questions to answer regarding what's really going on at the wall

I don't think he lied or misled anyone on this point. His position has never wavered -- that they are two different stories, two different worlds, getting more dissimilar every year.

So all the things pertaining to Book World remain intact. The odds of R+L=J, for me, did not change a speck because of last night's episode (though they aren't very high and haven't been for years). And Heretical observations pertaining to Book World remain unchanged as well.

Now, if you want to object that Kit Harington lied in interviews, or Benioff and Weiss did, or both, that idea seems very likely to prove essentially true. I am a betting man, and my bet would be that both Harington and Jon Snow will be coming back in season six.

[Voice]

The odds of R+L=J, for me, did not change a speck because of last night's episode (though they aren't very high and haven't been for years).

Was there an RLJ reference in the last episode?

[e1kabong]

Could Bloodraven have any knowledge in sorcery that uses darkness, other than the usual ice... like shadowbinding?

Absolutely. His connection to Shiera Seastar (Bloodraven's lover who was noted to practice sorcery - "she bathes in blood to keep her beauty") in the lore means he most likely has had exposure to sorcery other than "skin-changing".

The shadow-binding that we've seen in the books seems to be intrinsically linked to what I would call "blood magic", since the only time that power is made manifest is from Melisandre, who uses "king's blood" to work it. So Shiera's sorcery seems to have the same roots as Melisandre's.

[Sly Wren]

My take on this is that both BR and Bran are resident in the cave of skulls because of their blood. They both have blood of the first men and their abilities as greenseers will be traced back to the original pact between the CoTF and the FM. I imagine that in order to stop the FM from cutting down the Weirwoods ( old gods) the children had to share some of the magical abilities bestowed on them through the old gods. Having that omniscient presence through the Weirwoods allowed men to see the wisdom of the old gods and thus began the age of heroes where the FM themselves passed over their own faith in order to worship the old gods ( Weirwoods). This was kind of a win for the CoTF as even though they lost most of their lands they did in fact manage to preserve their gods.

Maybe a little more crackpot but I believe the representatives of the FM present at the pact had to perform a blood sacrifice in front of a heart tree in order to wed themselves to the tree ( old gods). I believe this is what Bran saw in his last vision in a DWD where he has just put on his training wheels as a greenseer. If we rewound the clock and got a glimpse of BR putting on his training wheels as a Greenseer I think that he would have seen the first sacrifice at the heart tree in Raventree hall. I can't remember who says it but I believe Bran is told he is a Greenseer because of his blood, which relates to the original pact between the CoTF and the FM.

Crackpot or no--this seems to work, at least to me. If Children know that they can't fight FM with conventional weapons, and if the Long NIght or Hammer of the Waters options are sort of nuclear-type weapons--share the magic/gods. It engages First Men with the old gods. It convinces the FM to "go native" as a mutual survival tactic. Am also assuming that the Hammer of the Waters and Long Night (not sure if you go with that view or not--but Hammer stands either way) would make convincing FM to follow the Old Gods much easier.

And the blood sacrifice--the traces of it are still around but seems "distasteful" (not trying to be coy--just can't think of a better word)--Craster is the best example of this. Am wondering if the sacrifices of the First Men were seen as necessary and powerful, but still a bit taboo--creates a powerful but potentially tense relationship between the First Men and the Children. Bottom line: I think your idea works. And may even help explain why the relationship between the First Men and the Children seems to have been both somewhat respectful and somewhat strained.

And I can't think of anything in BR's personality (as far as we know) that wouldn't fit with his experimenting with this kind of magic--happy to be proven wrong. But it would be an interesting vision for Bran to see. . .

[Sly Wren]

Was there an RLJ reference in the last episode?

Not directly--just info/events potentially affecting . . . how much do you want to know?

[Dire Dawg]

I have seen a bunch about how blood/sacrifice is needed to power the magic of the CotF, and frankly most of the other magic we see in ASOIF. Whose blood were the CotF sacrificing before humans arrived, or is it just necessary for humans to use blood magic because they are not CotF and don't have some inherent ability? Was is the giants, their one-time an maybe still rivals/enemies?

[Sly Wren]

“The strongest trees are rooted in the dark places of the earth. Darkness will be your cloak, your shield, your mother's milk. Darkness will make ou strong.”

Could Bloodraven have any knowledge in sorcery that uses darkness, other than the usual ice... like shadowbinding?

Leaf gives the speech about the cave linking to sunless sea, etc--clearly referencing "Kubla Khan" (which I'm assuming you've all hashed out). I'd been reading that as the world they are potentially "creating/influencing" with BR is rooted in darkness--the unfathomable and unknowable and unsafe--but powerful. At the root of everything. Not yet sure if that speech is propaganda, a warning to Bran and scoobies not to wander, or sincere.

But I can't think of any reason BR could not have looked at something like shadowbinding in his studies. . .

Edited to excise blatant stupidity.

[Old Ida]

Ah well, rags are rags but I fear we'll have to agree to disagree and in the meantime its my bedtime so good night to you and to Matthew and to anybody else who might be listening

Well said and if anyone care I am listening and I like a lot from you Black Crow as I do from Wolfmaid I like to be like a fly on the wall and learn from all of you, even if I like some theories less and some little, there is almost every day a A-HA moment from you all. You all see far deeper and can tell others in English more than I can. Big thank you Heretics :bowdown:

[Eira Seren]

Whilst broadly agreeing, I'd see it exactly per the synopsis. This isn't about the return of the King, whether its King Jon Targaryen, Azor Ahai, the Prince that was Promised, the Last Hero or any or all of them rolled into one. Rather, and perhaps a little surprisingly [to myself at least], I'm inclined to interpret the synopsis in terms of the Seven. The battle will be won not by a hero but by the Starks and others uniting against the threat. It will take Jon and Sansa and Bran and Arya and so on.

So who'll enjoining the remaining Starks?

Also, here's something kinda sad

http://sablehall.freeforums.net/post/14096

[Voice]

My take on this is that both BR and Bran are resident in the cave of skulls because of their blood. They both have blood of the first men and their abilities as greenseers will be traced back to the original pact between the CoTF and the FM. I imagine that in order to stop the FM from cutting down the Weirwoods ( old gods) the children had to share some of the magical abilities bestowed on them through the old gods. Having that omniscient presence through the Weirwoods allowed men to see the wisdom of the old gods and thus began the age of heroes where the FM themselves passed over their own faith in order to worship the old gods ( Weirwoods). This was kind of a win for the CoTF as even though they lost most of their lands they did in fact manage to preserve their gods.

Maybe a little more crackpot but I believe the representatives of the FM present at the pact had to perform a blood sacrifice in front of a heart tree in order to wed themselves to the tree ( old gods). I believe this is what Bran saw in his last vision in a DWD where he has just put on his training wheels as a greenseer. If we rewound the clock and got a glimpse of BR putting on his training wheels as a Greenseer I think that he would have seen the first sacrifice at the heart tree in Raventree hall. I can't remember who says it but I believe Bran is told he is a Greenseer because of his blood, which relates to the original pact between the CoTF and the FM.

This is my thinking as well.

[Sly Wren]

While I agree with Phillip Frye and others (AtS included) that Theon will live on I think it's because it is fitting punishment for him. He spent his life abusing his position with a callus disregard for others and it a sacrifice would be too easy an out for him I feel. Redemption by saving a no one like Jeyne Poole is not enough for me. So most likely he will do something noble like stopping the wightification of the dead.

However if we pull a bit more at that thread you brought up about Coldhands we may find a link that points to how it's done. I can't remember the Harlequin/Russian well enough to begin that analysis but I'm sure you and BC and others are more than up for the job. With a quick refresher I would be too. :)

Mind you Meera is much more likely to do it if she has the opportunity. Jojen won't unless that's what the greendreams tell him to do.

Am starting to agree re: Meera. Am wondering what it's going to be like when/if she and Jojen realize that this sacrifice isn't just "hard" or "necessary," but "pure horror" and even a lie. Jojen--agree on green dreams. But what happens if his interp of those dreams starts clashing hard with reality?

And agreeing on Theon--really think he needs to do something else before dying--maybe all this time we've spent will be a straightforward morality tale of the horrors of squandering one's blessings, but am (not too rationally) thinking there's more to him than that. Maybe.

Coldhands--still no idea where to go with that . . . would like if he were really a clue. Need a lot more info.

[Voice]

Not directly--just info/events potentially affecting . . . how much do you want to know?

I watched it, just must've completely missed the reference....