The true writer, and fan bias (SPOILERS FOR BOOKS AND TV)

[Rena Melville]

Had Martin written this arc (involving Stannis taking Shireen with his army, a "20 men Bolton raid" burning all supplies and "hundreds of horses", Davos abandonning Shireen when he clearly suspects what will happen, no good building of the severity of the storm, and all), I'd have found him a bad writer.

A bad writing does not make someone a bad writer though. But yeah, even if it was GRRM behind it it would still definitely be terrible writing.

[The King Of Cooked Steak]

The only benefit of the doubt I am giving to them is that I think there's some pressure and tussle internally. I have a feeling that some years after the show is done they might be regretful about the choices and direction the show had taken. David Benioff especially isn't some hack, he's a very good writer in his own right (he wrote the novel 25th Hour and the screenplay for the Spike Lee movie). That's why I say showrunners because its not just the two of them, it could be a host of things, the producers, the advertisers and others. I don't much care for insulting Benioff and Weiss themselves. I would probably not read ASOIAF had it not been for GOT since that was how I got interested in the show. I got in around the time of the hoopla for the Red Wedding and I saw that image of Robb Stark with the Wolf Head and I thought there was something interesting there.

Having said all that, the showrunners deserve condemnation for the disastrous freight train that is Season 5. Their tiny small and petty changes, and the fact that their changes almost always badly affect female characters in favor of male (Stannis being the major exception...even Tywin, Raper-Of-Tysha gets better treatment than Stannis) come not from malice but laziness more likely, but either way they are screwing and betraying the books in a manner that is absurd and ridiculous. Then rather than discuss the adaptation they leak information GRRM gave them. That's not quite nice.

Again, very good points. I don't think they are screwing the books. I think the best way to go about this, is to just follow GRRM's own words while paraphrasing Alan Moore. No matter what the showrunners do with the story, the books will still exist and they will exist without any harm or change done to them. If Stannis is a kinslaying nutball in the show, we still have the stubborn but still righteous and just man he is in the books, without resorting to burn his daughter alive. And even if he does, Martin will surely follow through with it in a way that makes sense and does service to the character, unlike the show. Plus, Martin has got some things up his sleeve that he hasn't told the writers, so in any case, the books are not going to be ruined by the show, no matter how much it butchers them on TV.

[Ojji]

Black text. White pages.

You know, "in black and white".

It's a very common phrase that means "printed on paper".

My goodness...it's like people "type type type POST" whatever they are going to post and don't even read or try to understand what they are replying to. No wonder folks miss so much from the books.

I think everyone understood you perfectly. It was you who did not understand his/her post.

And you can be sure, if the books start to line up with moments like this, as you said then I'll be the first one to start bashing GRRM. If he in the books, completely abandons Stannis' characteristics that makes him who he is, (as they did in the show) and without any proper explanation given decides to burn his daughter; then I will come out and start bashing GRRM as a writer.

But I have no fear of that happening. What you don't seem to understand is how illogical the scene in the show truly was, but for some reason you seem to be blindly defending the show in another topics also.

“Creatively it made sense to us, because we wanted it to happen." The famous quote by D&D you see often in these forums. This seem to be their philosophy in general; rushing out these 'WTF-plots' that will get people talking over the internet.

[CerseiStark]

But I have no fear of that happening. What you don't seem to understand is how illogical the scene in the show truly was, but for some reason you seem to be blindly defending the show in another topics also.

I have not found one person yet who didn't understand what happened who isn't a book reader.

Per EW's review of the episode:

"And yet, there’s nobody who can say this move was any kind of a cheat. You can look at Sansa going to Winterfell and debate whether her decision feels believable, but there is zero doubt this outcome comes straight from Stannis’ core character and his entire story arc has been flying straight to this moment—and yet, it was still a shock, which is the best kind of twist. "

It wasn't illogical at all. It is also laid out quite well in the books.

It's just that some people have obsessed over a false idea of who this character was for years and simply missed all the signs that everyone else saw.

Stannis has been murdering people in the name of the Red God for years now. The Red Witch told him that this would happen.

It's like some of you guys live in an alternate reality from the rest of the world.

[Wolf of the Steppes]

First off, my reaction to this scene went something like: What are they doing??? This doesn't make any sense!!! On an off note--The legion of Stannis fans are going to be pissed!

That said, if this is indeed going to happen in the books, I DO think that my reaction may be quite different. I doubt that I will like it, but understand it better.

For 2 main reasons:

1. The TV show is a different medium. D&D have neither the time, or in my opinion, the writing skill to give enough backbone to this decision by Stannis. If this happens in the books, GRRM will probably give enough insight into his thinking that we will understand the reasoning. We may still not like it, but it will make sense. Most all of his characters do things that even if we think are bad decisions, we can see why they thought one way or another--with few exceptions like Ramsay etc. (He's just a sadistic bastard :)

2. I think that the possible reasoning behind using this scene at this point in the show was because they wanted to add some shock value to a season that has relatively been lacking compared to other seasons. To me that is cheap, because it doesn't fit in the context of what is actually happening in Stannis's story-line at this point.

[artihcus022]

I have not found one person yet who didn't understand what happened who isn't a book reader.

Per EW's review of the episode:

"And yet, there’s nobody who can say this move was any kind of a cheat. You can look at Sansa going to Winterfell and debate whether her decision feels believable, but there is zero doubt this outcome comes straight from Stannis’ core character and his entire story arc has been flying straight to this moment—and yet, it was still a shock, which is the best kind of twist. "

It wasn't illogical at all. It is also laid out quite well in the books.

First of all, don't confuse the show with the books. The books aren't out yet and the word of anyone not-GRRM regarding how this plays out there is invalid. The scene does not in any case play out the same way in the books and will have to happen at a later stage in either case, since at the time Stannis and Shireen are far way from each other. The showrunners moved a plot or the final twist of Stannis' arc far ahead of the point it plays out in TWoW, having that choice they must be judged for it.

In terms of show!Stannis, what we see is a very contrived melodramatic situation where he's forced into doing something bad for the greater good. The point is that contrivance is what people get upset for. Ramsay and his 20 Good Men sneaking in and out like super-ninja is a contrivance. The idea of foreshadowing they put in is obvious and tacky, so obvious that the only real surprise would have come if it did not happen.

[Ojji]

Per EW's review of the episode:

"And yet, there’s nobody who can say this move was any kind of a cheat. You can look at Sansa going to Winterfell and debate whether her decision feels believable, but there is zero doubt this outcome comes straight from Stannis’ core character and his entire story arc has been flying straight to this moment—and yet, it was still a shock, which is the best kind of twist. "

It wasn't illogical at all. It is also laid out quite well in the books.

If that is the case, then it just goes to show fundamentally wrong they portrayed everything about Stannis in the show. So as far as I'm concerned Stannis from the show is not the same character as Stannis from the books.

Adding a little to this: Can we please talk logic, I have some questions.

Why does Stannis take his only child, his heir, and his wife to the battle in the first place? Why don't they fish the Long Lake? Why does none of the lords in Stannis' service speak out against kinslaying, it's a pretty big deal in Westeros after all? How does no one see Ramsay and his twenty men, is there no one on guard duty? Why does Davos just leave Shireen after heavy implication he knows what's coming?

It's just that some people have obsessed over a false idea of who this character was for years and simply missed all the signs that everyone else saw.

Stannis has been murdering people in the name of the Red God for years now. The Red Witch told him that this would happen.

I have yet to hear a solid argument from you to back up these loose statements. People sure have provided arguments against you, but you just seem to ignore them.

It's like some of you guys live in an alternate reality from the rest of the world.

It's funny you say that, when you seem to be the one that has set your mind to this conclusion - that you brilliantly deducted from the books and refuse to hear arguments against it.

[CerseiStark]

If that is the case, then it just goes to show fundamentally wrong they portrayed everything about Stannis in the show. So as far as I'm concerned Stannis from the show is not the same character as Stannis from the books.

I have yet to hear a solid argument from you to back up these loose statements. People sure have provided arguments against you, but you just seem to ignore them.

It's funny you say that, when you seem to be the one that has set your mind to this conclusion - that you brilliantly deducted from the books and refuse to hear arguments against it.

No, they haven't - actually, the only "arguments" are actually against what they think they are. And I've answered them fully, only to get gibberish back.

Have you watched Game of Thrones? Because honestly, if you have to ask these questions again, I don't think you have - or you didn't pay attention.

Were you not there when Stannis became a kin-slayer when he used sorcery to dishonorably kill his brother because he knew he couldn't face him in battle?

Did you miss as he progressively started to sacrifice people closer to him by burning them alive for this Red God?

Did you miss when the Red Witch told him that he would sacrifice all he held dear?

Did you not watch the week that the Red Witch insisted they bring Shireen along because she had a part to play? Or did you think she just needed her to serve drinks while on the road?

As to my "conclusion" - let's see, I have given a quote from an article supporting it (I can go find more), the writers of the show support it (or they wouldn't have written it), and outside of this website there are people making fun of the fact that people are flipping out over this because to everyone else it was plainly the entire point of the Stannis character, this was his story arc. To go from a man who defied everyone to save his daughter, to the man who took his daughters life because he was under the religious delusion that it would save "everyone".

But the Mannis fans here are the experts. You are asking the person who agrees with the rest of the world for evidence, when in fact it's those who disagree that this burden falls on - but even so, here I have done, explained it one more time.

You are mad because you misread the character if you didn't see this is someone who clearly has been murdering people for quite some time as a religious zealot.

As GRRM said this morning that he hasn't even written that scene in the books yet, I'm not going to argue about the books - pointless, since even he hasn't written it yet. But I can say that if Stannis somehow doesn't pull the trigger in the books as well, that's bad writing, because the signs have all been there, too.

What did you guys think the point of Stannis was? That he was actually going to win the throne? That murdering people by burning them alive (even if in the book they are "criminals") to appease a Red God was the noble thing and he was going to ride on his horse into King's Landing and take over?

But I realize, no matter what I say - the religious fervor around Stannis that some fans have is just that - no one can say anything to convince you. Because you know Stannis, he'd never betray you...I mean his daughter.

[The Dames do Moan]

No, they haven't - actually, the only "arguments" are actually against what they think they are. And I've answered them fully, only to get gibberish back.

Have you watched Game of Thrones? Because honestly, if you have to ask these questions again, I don't think you have - or you didn't pay attention.

Were you not there when Stannis became a kin-slayer when he used sorcery to dishonorably kill his brother because he knew he couldn't face him in battle?

Did you miss as he progressively started to sacrifice people closer to him by burning them alive for this Red God?

Did you miss when the Red Witch told him that he would sacrifice all he held dear?

Did you not watch the week that the Red Witch insisted they bring Shireen along because she had a part to play? Or did you think she just needed her to serve drinks while on the road?

As to my "conclusion" - let's see, I have given a quote from an article supporting it (I can go find more), the writers of the show support it (or they wouldn't have written it), and outside of this website there are people making fun of the fact that people are flipping out over this because to everyone else it was plainly the entire point of the Stannis character, this was his story arc. To go from a man who defied everyone to save his daughter, to the man who took his daughters life because he was under the religious delusion that it would save "everyone".

But the Mannis fans here are the experts. You are asking the person who agrees with the rest of the world for evidence, when in fact it's those who disagree that this burden falls on - but even so, here I have done, explained it one more time.

You are mad because you misread the character if you didn't see this is someone who clearly has been murdering people for quite some time as a religious zealot.

As GRRM said this morning that he hasn't even written that scene in the books yet, I'm not going to argue about the books - pointless, since even he hasn't written it yet. But I can say that if Stannis somehow doesn't pull the trigger in the books as well, that's bad writing, because the signs have all been there, too.

What did you guys think the point of Stannis was? That he was actually going to win the throne? That murdering people by burning them alive (even if in the book they are "criminals") to appease a Red God was the noble thing and he was going to ride on his horse into King's Landing and take over?

But I realize, no matter what I say - the religious fervor around Stannis that some fans have is just that - no one can say anything to convince you. Because you know Stannis, he'd never betray you...I mean his daughter.

Agreed, well posted and laid out, and that's coming from someone who genuinely enjoys book Stannis as a character, and enjoys him more on ever subsequent reread (which has been way to many now ha). Show Stannis is a very different character than book Stannis, and this specific act has been foreshadowed since season 3, albeit a little overtly, and has been set up in Stannis's character since the first scene with him in season 2, when Stannis starts to forsake what he previously knew, the seven and His long time maester Cressen, for the Red God and Mel. Obviously as we move throughout his arc those choices are going to become deeper rooted and hit closer to home.

I don't think it's out of the realm of possibility at all for this to be the case with Book Stannis either. Whether it happens or not and how it happens if it does, we obviously won't know until it happens / or doesn't. Obviously the logistics would need to change a little (Stannis and Shireen being in the same spot) if it does happen similar to the show with Stannis having direct knowledge prior to the burning. Stannis doesn't have the same relationship with his daughter in the books as he does in the show.

sure he tells Justin Massey in the TWOW preview to fight to place her on the throne if they hear he's dead. But that's just because the throne would be hers by right, or he has some other plot to fake his death. Not because he loves his daughter with such abundance that he would sacrifice all for her. That's not to say he has no emotion for her though.

We had this dilemma with Book Stannis's character when he was thinking about burning, then deciding to burn, Edric Storm, part of his family, his brothers son. His reasoning for doing this was that he thought burning one innocent person to save the world was well within the moral cost. It completely make sense, and stays within his character arc, that again, that decision would become deeper and hit closer to home, if he were to run across a similar situation but with a closer member of his family, Shireen. I have no doubt he would sacrifice her if he thought it was for a greater good.

Like I said, no one except GRRM will know until it's in the books, or not, and he probably doesn't even know how this specific part of his garden will play out yet.

[Marcus Agrippa]

Folk's CerseiStark is clearly looking to get a rise out of you. Doesn't site logical sources from the book, shows no proof that they it read the book, and qoute's news sources that have a history of defending show because money. Don't respond to it.

Benioff had one good movie. 25th hour. That is it. He wrote wolverine movie which was terrible and I am still inflamed at Troy. That movie should have been better then gladiator but it was a flaming pile of crap. I haven't seen the rest of his stuff but I can't imagine it was any good.

[Rena Melville]

CerseiStark, Mistress of Unrelated Rhetoric, Mother of Strawmen.

[aFeastForDragons]

I think it was a deflection by Benioff, and a pretty well-played one. He can blame GRRM without really blaming him, because the event as it played out on the show will likely be very different from how it plays out in the books. By the time TWoW comes out and we actually know the truth, a year or more from now, no one will care.

Thats what most of us are so annoyed about. Stannis will be branded a villain while in the books he may have nothing to do with it. For all we know he is genuinely dead at the end of ADWD.

This was a fantastic post. :thumbsup:

Your post made me realize why I am so annoyed with tyrion and daenarys white washing and stannis demonizing. It reduced realistic flawed yet understandable characters to caricatures of themselves and it makes it feel like the producers are trying to lecture us on who we should like and hate based on their own arbitrary tastes.

Yes, well put and Episode 9 was proof of that. Make Stannis a villain followed by a first pumping Dany scene.

If Stannis's letter triggers FTW then yes the internet will break. All over my FB feed is posts/pics hating Stannis and posts about how dumb and illogical it was.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

Folk's CerseiStark is clearly looking to get a rise out of you. Doesn't site logical sources from the book, shows no proof that they it read the book, and qoute's news sources that have a history of defending show because money. Don't respond to it.

Benioff had one good movie. 25th hour. That is it. He wrote wolverine movie which was terrible and I am still inflamed at Troy. That movie should have been better then gladiator but it was a flaming pile of crap. I haven't seen the rest of his stuff but I can't imagine it was any good.

LOLOLOL

I've been picking through this thread, and stumbled upon a mention of something GRRM supposedly said this morning? Can anyone help me out with that?

[Primalsplit]

No, they haven't - actually, the only "arguments" are actually against what they think they are. And I've answered them fully, only to get gibberish back.

Have you watched Game of Thrones? Because honestly, if you have to ask these questions again, I don't think you have - or you didn't pay attention.

Were you not there when Stannis became a kin-slayer when he used sorcery to dishonorably kill his brother because he knew he couldn't face him in battle?

Did you miss as he progressively started to sacrifice people closer to him by burning them alive for this Red God?

Did you miss when the Red Witch told him that he would sacrifice all he held dear?

Did you not watch the week that the Red Witch insisted they bring Shireen along because she had a part to play? Or did you think she just needed her to serve drinks while on the road?

As to my "conclusion" - let's see, I have given a quote from an article supporting it (I can go find more), the writers of the show support it (or they wouldn't have written it), and outside of this website there are people making fun of the fact that people are flipping out over this because to everyone else it was plainly the entire point of the Stannis character, this was his story arc. To go from a man who defied everyone to save his daughter, to the man who took his daughters life because he was under the religious delusion that it would save "everyone".

But the Mannis fans here are the experts. You are asking the person who agrees with the rest of the world for evidence, when in fact it's those who disagree that this burden falls on - but even so, here I have done, explained it one more time.

You are mad because you misread the character if you didn't see this is someone who clearly has been murdering people for quite some time as a religious zealot.

As GRRM said this morning that he hasn't even written that scene in the books yet, I'm not going to argue about the books - pointless, since even he hasn't written it yet. But I can say that if Stannis somehow doesn't pull the trigger in the books as well, that's bad writing, because the signs have all been there, too.

What did you guys think the point of Stannis was? That he was actually going to win the throne? That murdering people by burning them alive (even if in the book they are "criminals") to appease a Red God was the noble thing and he was going to ride on his horse into King's Landing and take over?

But I realize, no matter what I say - the religious fervor around Stannis that some fans have is just that - no one can say anything to convince you. Because you know Stannis, he'd never betray you...I mean his daughter.

You know what? You are not as clever as you think you are.

[RoamingRonin]

But I realize, no matter what I say - the religious fervor around Stannis that some fans have is just that - no one can say anything to convince you. Because you know Stannis, he'd never betray you...I mean his daughter.

Well said!

[artihcus022]

Folk's CerseiStark is clearly looking to get a rise out of you. Doesn't site logical sources from the book, shows no proof that they it read the book, and qoute's news sources that have a history of defending show because money. Don't respond to it.

Benioff had one good movie. 25th hour. That is it. He wrote wolverine movie which was terrible and I am still inflamed at Troy. That movie should have been better then gladiator but it was a flaming pile of crap. I haven't seen the rest of his stuff but I can't imagine it was any good.

You know I actually like Wolfgang Petersen's TROY. Well parts of it at least, but in retrospect you can kind of see that he reused a lot of the same ideas for the show. Dialing down myth and not even trying to put across a pre-modern mindset and the like. Turning a movie about the Trojan War into a cliche anti-Bush story (where Agamnenon is Bush when he's actually Paris, son of Priam).

[Ojji]

No, they haven't - actually, the only "arguments" are actually against what they think they are. And I've answered them fully, only to get gibberish back.

Have you watched Game of Thrones? Because honestly, if you have to ask these questions again, I don't think you have - or you didn't pay attention.

Were you not there when Stannis became a kin-slayer when he used sorcery to dishonorably kill his brother because he knew he couldn't face him in battle?

Did you miss as he progressively started to sacrifice people closer to him by burning them alive for this Red God?

Did you miss when the Red Witch told him that he would sacrifice all he held dear?

Did you not watch the week that the Red Witch insisted they bring Shireen along because she had a part to play? Or did you think she just needed her to serve drinks while on the road?

As to my "conclusion" - let's see, I have given a quote from an article supporting it (I can go find more), the writers of the show support it (or they wouldn't have written it), and outside of this website there are people making fun of the fact that people are flipping out over this because to everyone else it was plainly the entire point of the Stannis character, this was his story arc. To go from a man who defied everyone to save his daughter, to the man who took his daughters life because he was under the religious delusion that it would save "everyone".

But the Mannis fans here are the experts. You are asking the person who agrees with the rest of the world for evidence, when in fact it's those who disagree that this burden falls on - but even so, here I have done, explained it one more time.

You are mad because you misread the character if you didn't see this is someone who clearly has been murdering people for quite some time as a religious zealot.

As GRRM said this morning that he hasn't even written that scene in the books yet, I'm not going to argue about the books - pointless, since even he hasn't written it yet. But I can say that if Stannis somehow doesn't pull the trigger in the books as well, that's bad writing, because the signs have all been there, too.

What did you guys think the point of Stannis was? That he was actually going to win the throne? That murdering people by burning them alive (even if in the book they are "criminals") to appease a Red God was the noble thing and he was going to ride on his horse into King's Landing and take over?

But I realize, no matter what I say - the religious fervor around Stannis that some fans have is just that - no one can say anything to convince you. Because you know Stannis, he'd never betray you...I mean his daughter.

You start mixing things what happened in the show and the books and tell me I have misread the character.

In the books we get a pretty clear idea why Stannis kills Renly. Renly is commiting treason by crowning himself as the king and Stannis sees it's his duty, as the rightful king, to see to his punishment. To me this tells a lot about the character. And you believe Stannis does this because why? Because he's a religious zealot who only does it because he can?

Like it or not, in the books Stannis has his own strict and hard view on justice.

In the books Stannis sees that Melisandre has powers and he uses her as a weapon. Stannis is not a true believer himself. Also Stannis does not blindly follow Mel.

"But I can say that if Stannis somehow doesn't pull the trigger in the books as well, that's bad writing, because the signs have all been there, too. "

You take all these scenes that never happens in the books as 'sings' to what will happen in the books. Amazing logic.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

And, perhaps I just answered my own question, found this on Not A Blog in response to a question about the Shireen scene and everything................

Jun. 10th, 2015 05:08 am (UTC)

Re: Game of Thrones (I'm sorry)

If I start to comment on what might or might not happen in scenes that I have not written yet, I will be "spoiling" my own books.

I have no further comment at this time.

[artihcus022]

And, perhaps I just answered my own question, found this on Not A Blog in response to a question about the Shireen scene and everything................

Jun. 10th, 2015 05:08 am (UTC)

Re: Game of Thrones (I'm sorry)

If I start to comment on what might or might not happen in scenes that I have not written yet, I will be "spoiling" my own books.

I have no further comment at this time.

What that implies tells a lot I think. I have a weird suspicion that this sacrifice story is something they pulled from...A Dream of Spring outlines. Because its far too late a development considering the time and place Book Stannis is in.

[marsyao]

I think it was a deflection by Benioff, and a pretty well-played one. He can blame GRRM without really blaming him, because the event as it played out on the show will likely be very different from how it plays out in the books. By the time TWoW comes out and we actually know the truth, a year or more from now, no one will care.

This will be a dangerous game, what if GRRM proves them wrong in his next book? Then they will lost all of their credits