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Han Snow

Speculation on how Jon Snow's resurrection will play out

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Spoilers???




First of all his soul is in Ghost.



And it will be there for most of TWOW. I doubt we'll see anything from Jon's perspective until the end of the book, but we will get a limited JoninGhost POV.



So here it goes.



Melisandre will try to save Jon and fail. Without his soul the body will be comatose but alive or just a meat puppet for her. Jon's soul/mind will, after the initial shock from dying, finally finish that dream of Winterfell crypts and meet his uncle/father Ned waiting for him with the truth of his parentage and more I presume. After that Bran and Bloodraven will get in contact with JonInGhost instructing him to go into the Heart of Winter. (highly speculative)



Meanwhile we'll get all the rest that will happen in Westeros; crazy Cersei, Dany fighting her nephew Aegon in DOTD 2.0., Sansa killing Petyr and taking control of the Vale for herself, Stannis winning his battle for Winterfell, dealing with the Boltons (Ramsay survives), Manderly's and the rest of northern lords denying Stannis his claim on the north...



Stannis is too weak to do anything about the defiance of the northern lords, so he decides to retreat to Castle Black. He'll arrive there at the end of the novel. By then the DOTD 2.0 will be finishing with Dany killing Aegon and consolidating her power. The Northern lords will declare for her and put Rickon forward as the Lord of Winterfell. So Stannis's cause is all but lost, yet he will still believe himself to be the rightful King and Savior of the mankind. So desperation and completely wrong conviction will make him consent to Mel's wishes to sacrifice Shireen so she can create her shadow dragons or whatever.



So the great pyre will be started where Patchface and Shireen will be burned alongside Jon's comatose body, so Mel can use that potent blood of his. Then the unexpected magic of resurrection happens. Jon Snow's soul returns to his body and he walks out of the fire. The great stone Dragon.



In a perfect scenario he'll kill Mel on the spot.



Stannis will be lost in grief, guilt, doubt and that is when Selyse realizing the falseness of everything she had believed in will murder him (maybe with his own false sword?)



Oh, and Ghost will die by the hand of whomever is leading the White Walkers (Night's King?) at the same time Mel is burning Jon.



The book ends with WW's destroying the Wall with the horn of Joramun.




So, is it plausible?


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Aside from the fact that I do not think he is dead, no.




For one the entire scenario you just proposed (in terms of Jon) was already done by his friend and colleague, Robin Hobb. Having him take one element of her book and integrate the exact same thing just does not seem like something he would do.




But let's for sake of argument say that you are right. Having Jon out of the entire book only to return in the end leaves just 1 book for him to do a bunch of stuff. That would just be asinine on Martin's behalf. It would suggest that Jon wakes up in the last pages, then in DoS he becomes some otherworldly warrior hacking and slashing everything around him.




Is it plausible? It is fantasy and Martin can do whatever he wants. So yes.



Do I think it is likely. No.




Also. There seems to be a lot of RH being thrown around lately. I may be one of a small group of people, but I think Mel's role at the wall is RH. I don't think she has anything to do with Jon's survival. I think she was perfectly placed there, and we have prior knowledge of what the Red Priests can do, so our immediate reaction after FTW is "Oh Mel will revive Jon". I personally don't think she has anything to do with it.


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Aside from the fact that I do not think he is dead, no.

Who said he was dead? Though he may well be. Maybe it is a resurrection, maybe it is a rebirth. It doesn't matter, the events will play similar whatever the case may be.

Without the soul body is just a shell. Mel will manage to heal the shell somewhat. And store it in the Ice Cells until Stannis returns. The resurrection/rebirth will also be unintentional, just like the hatching of the dragons was something that happened through spontaneous combination of things.

What does that No of yours even mean?

Benioff already

spoiled us that Stannis WILL return to the Wall and that Shireen WILL be burned so I tried to encapsulate that knowledge with what could happen to Jon

On the rest, well, we'll see...

edited: For clarity on the resurrection-rebirth thing

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No means I don't buy it. By dead, I also mean that I do not believe that Jon needs resurrection or that sort of intervention.



I do buy that Jon may warg Ghost, but I don't buy that Mel will have anything to do with his survival, nor do I believe that Jon will live in Ghost for an entire book.




But I also said that of course it is possible, I just don't necessarily buy it.


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No means I don't buy it. By dead, I also mean that I do not believe that Jon needs resurrection or that sort of intervention.

I do buy that Jon may warg Ghost, but I don't buy that Mel will have anything to do with his survival, nor do I believe that Jon will live in Ghost for an entire book.

But I also said that of course it is possible, I just don't necessarily buy it.

But I'm telling you that Mel WILL NOT BE INTERVENING for Jon! She'll do the Shireen, Patchface, Jon's body burning because she'll want to help Stannis, herself, birth shadow dragons, not because she actively wants to bring Jon back.

edit:

Also on the whole you don't buy Jon out of action for most of the book. I clearly wrote, and I'll repeat WE WILL get some amazing chapters with him in Ghost.

First one with Jon finishing his Crypt dream and finding out about R+L, probably happening somewhere in the first half of WOW. Second one where he goes to the Lands of always winter, probably at the middle, and lastly the whole journey of returning to his human body.

then in DoS he becomes some otherworldly warrior hacking and slashing everything around him

Who said anything about something like that?

Only GRRM knows what happens in ADOS.

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Without the soul body is just a shell. Mel will manage to heal the shell somewhat. And store it in the Ice Cells until Stannis returns.

But I'm telling you that Mel WILL NOT BE INTERVENING for Jon!

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There are some cool ideas here. I would like to see a chapter of Jon going, as Ghost to the Others' crib. Perhaps Ghost gets killed, as you say. I don't think Jon is dead though, and without dying, it will be a while before he can warg so effectively, so I don't know.


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Without the soul body is just a shell. Mel will manage to heal the shell somewhat. And store it in the Ice Cells until Stannis returns.

Han Snow, on 12 Jun 2015 - 02:44 AM, said:snapback.png

But I'm telling you that Mel WILL NOT BE INTERVENING for Jon!

Yes, a blunder.

I meant that, sure, at first she'll try to heal, help Jon but it won't work fully. His soul will remain in Ghost and she will give up on him, storing his body like a ham for later needs. The burning of Shireen and his body will not be to bring Jon from the dead but to give Stannis power or whatever, so she can pop out shadow dragons, BUT instead Jon will rise again completely surprising Mel, Stannis, Selyse...

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I like parts of this a lot! I do think that Jon will be "reborn" however I lean more in the direction of ice magic to be the balancing act to Dany's pyre.

Exactly how... I do not know ...

So maybe the magic of the wall will play a part in healing Jon's body and leaving him with a little magic of his own perhaps his body will be placed in the ice cells below which is somewhat foreshadowed in Bran's dream and the scene before the attack. His seemingly fatal wounds (especially without a maester around) heal rapidly

Or maybe it's somehow a combination of both fire and ice but I think the "ice" magic will be bigger than just warging

With GRRM...ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE!!! That is why we love him!!!

Sorry for any typos and no hard text references I am just entertaining myself while my partner drives 9 hours !😉

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I am of the opinion that Jon isn't dead. based on the text and the way the chapter is just left hanging. There is no confirmation he is dead, wounded obviously but to what extent, we have seen other characters survive injuries where they should have actually died but did not. There are to many unknown circumstances at play during that final sequence to have actual fact of the outcome, only speculation.


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I am of the opinion that Jon isn't dead. based on the text and the way the chapter is just left hanging.

Plus, only one major character has ever died in their own chapter.

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Mel is in no way shape or form going to make anything happen immediately following that chapter end. Apart from getting the hell out of dodge. Castle Black is as far as we can tell, lost. Without the Lord Commander you'll have an immediate fight between wildlings and brothers. Whoever comes out on top of that is already lost. The others are next.



This whole chapter end is setup to ensure the wall falls. I'm not sure yet how but I suspect very early on in the next book the wall is done. The next book will probably be wrapping up KL subplots and moving in the direction of what happens when the wall falls. It would fit the book title.


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Martin is a masterful storyteller who is not going to jeopardize his well-crafted "song" of ice and fire by including events unlikely to occur and by having characters behave unnaturally and without cause.

I, personally, have been waiting for Jon to warg Ghost. Moreover, I will be disappointed if Martin does not include a Ghost POV. I enjoy when Martin writes from Summer's POV in Bran's narratives, paying literary homage to American writer Jack London whose novels reveal the perspectives of wolves and/or dogs.

So I am sure Martin will not disappoint readers who, I think, expect Jon to warg Ghost - and have been lead to "believe" this will happen. This has been Jon's fate from the beginning - hints lurk in AGoT.

Jon's dire situation will be one of several ways Martin will reveal Bran's powers. However, Bran's primary goal will be to bring his littermates together - in a poignant, moving way that only Martin can write with flare.

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I have a theory.

.

I do think that if you're bringing a character back, that a character has gone through death, that's a transformative experience. Even back in those days of Wonder Man and all that, I loved the fact that he died, and although I liked the character in later years, I wasn't so thrilled when he came back because that sort of undid the power of it. Much as I admire Tolkien, I once again always felt like Gandalf should have stayed dead. That was such an incredible sequence in Fellowship of the Ring when he faces the Balrog on the Khazad-dûm and he falls into the gulf, and his last words are, "Fly, you fools."

What power that had, how that grabbed me. And then he comes back as Gandalf the White, and if anything he's sort of improved. I never liked Gandalf the White as much as Gandalf the Grey, and I never liked him coming back. I think it would have been an even stronger story if Tolkien had left him dead.

My characters who come back from death are worse for wear. In some ways, they're not even the same characters anymore. The body may be moving, but some aspect of the spirit is changed or transformed, and they've lost something. One of the characters who has come back repeatedly from death is Beric Dondarrion, The Lightning Lord. Each time he's revived he loses a little more of himself. He was sent on a mission before his first death. He was sent on a mission to do something, and it's like, that's what he's clinging to. He's forgetting other things, he's forgetting who he is, or where he lived. He's forgotten the woman who he was once supposed to marry. Bits of his humanity are lost every time he comes back from death; he remembers that mission. His flesh is falling away from him, but this one thing, this purpose that he had is part of what's animating him and bringing him back to death. I think you see echoes of that with some of the other characters who have come back from death.

I also doubt that Jon is going to be brought back like UnBeric and UnCat through R'hllor as that would be a trite overuse of that trick. Also, as butterbumps! pointed out, Jon being resurrected that way would leave less point to his story as there would be no way for his character to develop with his memory and mind regressing. Those are the reasons why I think he is comatose. The cold of the Wall could freeze his wounds like it did Ser Adrian Scrope at the Battle of Edgehill.

Jon Wargs Into Ghost

True death came suddenly; he [Varamyr] felt a shock of cold [going into One Eye]

Mance should have let me take the direwolf [Ghost]. There would be a second life worthy of a king.

"Ghost," he whispered . . . He [Jon] never felt the fourth knife. Only the cold.

Jon warged into Ghost in that scene when he was stabbed. His spirit/consciousness is going to spend some time in Ghost. Ghost may bother Marsh and Co akin to Brutus being visited by Caesar's ghost.

Jon's Visit from BranRaven and Visions

Then a gnarled hand seized Jon roughly [in his dream] . . . woke with a raven pecking at his chest

Gnarled is a word often used to describe trees, especially in ASOIAF and Bloodraven is basically part tree right now. BR has been trying to contact Jon for a while, and I think he will contact Jon while is comatose like he did Bran in AGoT, possibly as the three-eyed crow.

"Sometimes I dream about it," he said. "I’m walking down this long empty hall. My voice echoes all around, but no one answers, so I walk faster, opening doors, shouting names. I don’t even know who I’m looking for. Most nights it’s my father, but sometimes it’s Robb instead, or my little sister Arya, or my uncle." The thought of Benjen Stark saddened him; his uncle was still missing. The Old Bear had sent out rangers in search of him. Ser Jaremy Rykker had led two sweeps, and Quorin Halfhand had gone forth from the Shadow Tower, but they’d found nothing aside from a few blazes in the trees that his uncle had left to mark his way. In the stony highlands to the northwest, the marks stopped abruptly and all trace of Ben Stark vanished.
"Do you ever find anyone in your dream?" Sam asked.
Jon shook his head. "No one. The castle is always empty." He had never told anyone of the dream, and he did not understand why he was telling Sam now, yet somehow it felt good to talk of it. "Even the ravens are gone from the rookery, and the stables are full of bones. That always scares me. I start to run then, throwing open doors, climbing the tower three steps at a time, screaming for someone, for anyone. And then I find myself in front of the door to the crypts. It’s black inside, and I can see the steps spiraling down. Somehow I know I have to go down there, but I don’t want to. I’m afraid of what might be waiting for me. The old Kings of Winter are down there, sitting on their thrones with stone wolves at their feet and iron swords across their laps, but it’s not them I’m afraid of. I scream that I’m not a Stark, that this isn’t my place, but it’s no good, I have to go anyway, so I start down, feeling the walls as I descend, with no torch to light the way. It gets darker and darker, until I want to scream." He stopped, frowning, embarrassed. "That’s when I always wake.

Jon mentions in specific detail a dream he has. He was always scared of what is waiting down there in the crypts, and he wakes up before he can finish it. Now that he is comatose, he has no choice but to complete the dream.

The mention of dreams reminded him. “I dreamed about the crow again last night. The one with three eyes. He flew into my bedchamber and told me to come with him, so I did. We went down to the crypts. Father was there, and we talked. He was sad.”
“And why was that?” Luwin peered through his tube.
“It was something to do about Jon, I think.” The dream had been deeply disturbing, more so than any of the other crow dreams.

I would sooner let Jon enjoy these last few days. Summer will end soon enough, and childhood as well. When the time comes, I [Ned] will tell him myself.

From Bran's dream, we can infer that what is waiting down in the crypts for Jon is Ned to tell Jon the truth of his heritage.

He [Ned] walking through the crypts beneath Winterfell . . . "Promise me, Ned," Lyanna's statue whispered. She wore a garland of pale blue roses, and her eyes wept blood.

"Can I [Jaime] forget someone [his mother, Joanna] I never knew?" He did know her, but it had been so long

I think we may also find Lyanna down there from what we get in Ned's crypt dream. I think Jon's reaction to seeing his mother Lyanna would be similar to Jaime's: someone he never knew but deep inside does know who she is. Many characters in fantasy receive visions when in a death-like/near-death state like Paul Atreides in Dune, and Seoman Snowlock in Memory, Sorrow and Thorn.

Paul Atreides in Dune went into a coma after drinking the Water of Life, and he gained knowledge about his heritage as well as past, present and future. Seoman Snowlock of Memory, Sorrow and Thorn also receives visions from the past while he is in a near-death state, especially visions regarding his royal heritage and how some visions relate to the present situation while he is the void between life and death. Those visions are shown by a child proficient in the Road of Dreams, and I think a child becoming skilled at greenseeing as of ADwD, Bran, will show Jon these visions. Jon will likely gain knowledge about his heritage as well, and may possibly get a slew of visions from BR pertaining to past, present and future. I think he will get glimpses of his parents' relationship in the past, possibly including Ned's promise to Lyanna. The visions of the present/future may be Dany setting sail for Westeros. As to any other visions of the future, I think they may be anything, including the burning down of KL.

Two Kings to Wake the Dragon

As to how he will be revived, as MMD said, only death can pay for life. It will be one life by fire, the other by ice.

The Sacrifice by Ice:

"Marriage is not for you," Theon decided. "When I rule, I believe I will pack you off to the silent sisters."

They (Qarl and Asha) spent the night devouring peaches and each other.

And then her [Asha] back came up hard against a tree, and she could dance no more.

Asha had walked out with Aly Mormont to have a closer look at its slitted red eyes and bloody mouth. It's only sap, she'd told herself, the red sap that flows inside these weirwoods. But her eyes were unconvinced; seeing was believing, and what they saw was frozen blood.

Silent sisters attend the dead, and peaches are in ASOIAF what oranges are in The Godfather. I think Asha will die in the Battle of Ice when she finds herself backed against the weirwood tree, and her blood is spilled onto the weirwood. The title of her last POV is "The Sacrifice" even though she wasn't being sacrificed. Her death will be an unintentional blood sacrifice which will be used by BR and Bran to pay for the life of Jon. Also in MS&T, Seoman Snowlock was returned to his body while he was in a near-death state and in the area between life and death after the sacrifice of Maegwin, the daughter of the late King of Hernystir, the westernmost kingdom of Osten Ard (like the Iron Isles being the westernmost kingdom of Westeros).

I know some are saying Theon, but Theon was never crowned king nor used the title. Besides, the expectation is that he will be killed, and I think that is a sign he won't given GRRM builds expectations to toy with them.

The Sacrifice by Fire:

Props to Mithras Stoneborn

Two kings to wake the dragon. The father first and then the son, so both die kings. The words had been murmured by one of the queen’s men as Maester Aemon had cleaned his wounds. Jon had tried to dismiss them as his fever talking. Aemon had demurred. “There is power in a king’s blood,” the old maester had warned, “and better men than Stannis have done worse things than this.”

The Queen’s Men are content with burning Mance and they can burn Mance’s son too without a blinking an eye.

Red-bearded Gerrick Kingsblood brought three daughters. “They will make fine wives, and give their husbands strong sons of royal blood,” he boasted. “Like their father, they are descended from Raymun Redbeard, who was King-Beyond-the-Wall.”

Blood meant little and less amongst the free folk, Jon knew. Ygritte had taught him that. Gerrick’s daughters shared her same flame-red hair, though hers had been a tangle of curls and theirs hung long and straight. Kissed by fire. “Three princesses, each lovelier than the last,” he told their father. “I will see that they are presented to the queen.” Selyse Baratheon would take to these three better than she had to Val, he suspected; they were younger and considerably more cowed. Sweet enough to look at them, though their father seems a fool.

Gerrick and his daughters are kissed by fire. We all know that kisses are not always good. Like the steel kiss which the Dornishman had tasted. We also have this:

Trembling, the girl reached out her hand, held it well above the flickering candle flame.

“Down. Let it kiss you.”

Gilly lowered her hand. An inch. Another. When the flame licked her flesh, she snatched her hand back and began to sob.

Jon was trying to make a point to Gilly, about how gruesome a death by fire was. So the kiss of fire is deadly.

“Let us speak of other matters. Axell, bring in the wildling king, if you would be so good.”

“At once, Your Grace.” Ser Axell went through a door and returned a moment later with Gerrick Kingsblood. “Gerrick of House Redbeard,” he announced, “King of the Wildlings.”

“Gerrick has graciously agreed to give the hand of his eldest daughter to my beloved Axell, to be united by the Lord of Light in holy wedlock,” Queen Selyse said. “His other girls shall wed at the same time—the second daughter with Ser Brus Buckler and the youngest with Ser Malegorn of Redpool.”

Gerrick Kingsblood was a tall man, long of leg and broad of shoulder. The queen had dressed him in some of the king’s old clothes, it appeared. Scrubbed and groomed, clad in green velvets and an ermine half-cape, with his long red hair freshly washed and his fiery beard shaped and trimmed, the wildling looked every inch a southron lord. He could walk into the throne room at King’s Landing, and no one would blink an eye, Jon thought.

Wait, was that the same throne room where Aerys had burned Rickard and no one dared to blink an eye? The same Rickard who is said to have southron ambitions which led him to marry his 3 children to southron lords to increase his power and influence? Gerrick is trying to gain power and influence by marrying his 3 daughters to the southron knights. How do you think that will end?

“Gerrick is the true and rightful king of the wildlings,” the queen said, “descended in an unbroken male line from their great king Raymun Redbeard, whereas the usurper Mance Rayder was born of some common woman and fathered by one of your black brothers.”

Although Gerrick was descended from Raymun’s younger brother, Selyse does not know or does not seem to care that. That means they can burn Gerrick and his daughters should they need a sacrifice for some spell. What sort of a man was Ser Axell?

He [ser Axell Florent] was an uncle to Queen Selyse and had been among the first to follow her in accepting Melisandre’s red god. If he is not a kinslayer, he is the next best thing. Axell Florent’s brother had been burned by Melisandre, Maester Aemon had informed him, yet Ser Axell had done little and less to stop it. What sort of man can stand by idly and watch his own brother being burned alive?

He can put his father-in-law to the nightfires without blinking an eye. That is his sort.

“Eastwatch is not safe.” The queen put a hand on her daughter’s shoulder. “This is the king’s true heir. Shireen will one day sit the Iron Throne and rule the Seven Kingdoms. She must be kept from harm, and Eastwatch is where the attack will come.

This suggests they cannot even think of burning Shireen under normal circumstances. And if they do want to burn somebody with a kingsblood, they have Gerrick with the mark of death on him as we saw.

Melisandre is looking for kingsblood for her spells, and Gerrick's name is literally "Kingsblood." I think he will end up being burned by Mel as an offering to R'hllor, but she unintentionally provides the life needed to aid Jon's revival.

Dany simply needed to burn MMD to hatch her dragons from eggs, and I think Mel burning Gerrick would hatch the dragon, Jon Targaryen, from his "egg" (akin to Egg, Aegon's false identity hiding his Targaryen identity).

Two kings to wake the dragon

"Bring in the wildling king [Gerrick]"

"My queen [Asha]"

Both Asha and Gerrick are proclaimed monarchs. Going with what Maester Aemon said regarding Valyrians being gender neutral in language when he was referring to prince/princess, the same is likely true for kings/queens. So the Valyrian phrase of "two kings to wake a dragon" could just as easily mean a king and a queen or two queens. That satisfies the requirements for two kings to wake the dragon.

Val's Role: Jon Snow White and the Last Kiss

Azor Ahai shall be born again amidst smoke and salt

Val stood on the platform as still as if she'd been carved from salt.

“Hard bread, hard cheese, oat cakes, salt cod, salt beef, salt mutton, and a skin of sweet wine to rinse all that salt out of my mouth. I will not die of hunger.”

If we follow the resurrection of Christ as a parallel for Jon, I think Val may draw a parallel to Mary Magdalene who visited Christ's tomb, and was the first to witness his resurrection. Early medieval Christian art portrayed her with very long blond hair, and Val has blond hair reaching to her waist.

Also, Val's name may be derived from Valkyries; mythological women who were portrayed as blue-eyed blondes and wore pure white robes like Val's clothes when she comes with Tormund. They were associated with wolves and ravens (Ghost seems to like her and I think Val may listen to Mormont's raven). They worked in service to Odin, the one-eyed god associated with ravens who were his messengers; one of Bloodraven's mythological references and he could be using Mormont's raven as a messenger. The Valkyries determined who lived and who died in battle with the kiss of death.

Warning Incoming Pot Shrapnel

Under the sea the crows are white as snow.

The light of the half-moon turned Val's honey-blond hair a pale silver and left her cheeks as white as snow.

The last kiss it is called, and many a time I [Thoros] saw the old priests bestow it on the Lord's servants as they died . . . But never before had I felt a dead man shudder as the fire filled him, nor seen his eyes come open.

In "Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs" as the dwarfs thought Snow White was dead when she was in a coma, and she was kept in a glass coffin (Jon sees ice scraping off the Wall and thinks of glass gardens). This is the part of the theory that I regard to be the most crackpot; Jon, a prince, may wake up the moment Val, called the "wildling princess," kisses him. Also, add in that Valkyries gave the kiss of death to fallen warriors to enter Valhalla to prepare for Ragnarok, marching with Odin against the frost giants, just as Westeros is in a Ragnarok situation with Jon fighting against the Others. Beric and Cat were resurrected through the last kiss which is bestowed on servants of the Lord of Light as they died; a kiss of fire so to speak. I think Jon will wake up when Val gives him a kind of last kiss, only this may be a kiss of ice.

ETA:

Jon did not intend to be remembered as Sleepy Jon Snow.

Sleepy Jon Snow could be a reference to "Sleeping Beauty" where the princess is awakened by a kiss. The original name of the story was "Tale of the Little Briar Rose" and Jon is portrayed as a blue rose in a chink of ice on the Wall. It may be a reverse of that story with the princess kissing the prince awake.

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Jon wargs into Ghost. (Various enlightening dreams, etc.)



Jon's body stored in ice cell for a short time.



Bran arrives at Castle Black, claims Jon's body, and heads for Winterfell via dogsled. (Meera teaches Ghost/Jon to juggle.)



Meanwhile, northern lords take Winterfell with help of H Reed, G Glover, and M Mormont attacking through crypts. Roose captured.



Bran arrives at Winterfell, revives Jon in pool by heart tree by beheading Roose.

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He is alive, just wounded no need for anything magical in terms of resurrection, maybe a little bit of Mel magic to help him recover faster.

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I don't personally think Jon is dead and in need of resurrection. If he is dead, or out of commission for a while, I would be very disappointed if GRRM just copies Hobb and has Jon pull a Fitz by warging ghost for a while to avoid dying when his human body is killed. It was a cool plot device when it was used in the Farseer trilogy, it'll feel hacky if Martin appropriates it.


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