El Guapo Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 I am not going to defend that prostitute scene because it was stupid but I am not sure why people were expecting a scene anything like what was in the books considering that Tyrion is not the same character in the books, a fact that has been clear since season one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 I am not going to defend that prostitute scene because it was stupid but I am not sure why people were expecting a scene anything like what was in the books considering that Tyrion is not the same character in the books, a fact that has been clear since season one. I don't think anyone was expecting it. Most people realised there was no way they'd include it. But it still serves to remind how much they've missed the mark with Tyrion. And having this deliberately complete opposite scene? It just felt like a deliberate stab at the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolsimir Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Uh, no. In the show, even more so than in the books, Stannis is a follower of R'hllor and believes he is going to save humanity. He is not seeking the throne merely to hold it and pass it down to his heirs. He is doing it to save the world. D&D literally said that Stannis did this for ambition. I am glad you are finally realizing how terrible they are at handling this show. There's plenty of room on the Rant and Rave train. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Valhalla Morghulis Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 Yes, I don't think one can entirely blame the source material for the "mehness" that is Season 5. Of course. However, I do have faith that D&D can write good original material, because some of the best scenes have been original material. In season 1, we had excellent scenes such as Cersei with Robert ("our marriage is the only thing holding the realm together"), the Hound and Arya travelogue (which was largely original material), Hardhome, and others. So I have faith that the source material will be better moving forward and that D&D have the ability to add good material of their own. Very much looking forward to Season 6. I will be the first to admit if I'm wrong, by the way, but it is far too early to bring out the sackcloth and ashes. Yes I also will keep the faith as season 5 still had many great moments, and even in Dorne such as Jamie defending himself with the metal hand, and Doran even cracking a joke with the - How about some soup? line to Bronn. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoreOrLess Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 The ironic thing for me is that I think that Stannis this season was the best the character has ever been final making good on the potential of that scene with Mel in the last episode of season 2. Earlier on I could see the point that he had been used more as a foil for characters like Tyrion and Davos changing his character/actions to cast them in a better light. This season though it felt like the focus was much more directly on him. Its ironic considering his actions but I felt he came across as pretty close to the book character in terms of hard nosed dignity. It would have been easy just to paint him as another monster ala Joffery, Roose, Walder Frey, etc but ultimately I think the show managed to paint him as someone trapped by the need to follow his "destiny" due mix of belief in its rightness and just how much had been sacrifed for it already. He certainly didn't give the impression of someone happy to kill his daughter to fee petty egotism so much as someone tormented by what he viewed as the need to. That IMHO is really what D&D saw as the core of his story and obviously this doesn't mesh with some peoples view of the character hence the negative reaction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
protar Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 The ironic thing for me is that I think that Stannis this season was the best the character has ever been final making good on the potential of that scene with Mel in the last episode of season 2. Earlier on I could see the point that he had been used more as a foil for characters like Tyrion and Davos changing his character/actions to cast them in a better light. This season though it felt like the focus was much more directly on him. Its ironic considering his actions but I felt he came across as pretty close to the book character in terms of hard nosed dignity. It would have been easy just to paint him as another monster ala Joffery, Roose, Walder Frey, etc but ultimately I think the show managed to paint him as someone trapped by the need to follow his "destiny" due mix of belief in its rightness and just how much had been sacrifed for it already. He certainly didn't give the impression of someone happy to kill his daughter to fee petty egotism so much as someone tormented by what he viewed as the need to. That IMHO is really what D&D saw as the core of his story and obviously this doesn't mesh with some peoples view of the character hence the negative reaction. It's not that there was no way that it could have been written well. It's that: a.) The decision is completely rushed. The morning after Ramsay's attack he decides to sacrifice his daughter when before he wouldn't hear of it. D+D were just interested in the shock. b.) Because his decision is so abrupt, and we see very little of his struggle, it basically just makes all of his scenes with Shireen emotional manipulation. Those were the last crumbs of hope we had that D+D might actually not completely hate Stannis. But it was just bait. c.) D+D hid behind the books. They claim that George told them about this, even though it's pretty much impossible for things to go down in the books as they do in the show because Shireen and Stannis are hundreds of miles a part. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Guapo Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 People really need to stop this "they hate Stannis" schtick. It's ridiculous. They don't have an agenda against him or any other character from the books. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bobby b's bobby Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 People really need to stop this "they hate Stannis" schtick. It's ridicuolous. They don't have an agenda against him or any other character from the books. They play favourites though look at tyrion and cersei then jaime and stannis. The comments about them as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheCasualObserver Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 First of all I don't think you can separate out his fight with the Boltons from what he believes to be his purpose. He believes his destiny is to march south and win the thrones step by step, before then leading humanity in the "fight for the dawn". Defeating the Boltons is an essential part of that for him, just as much as fighting the white walkers would be later. Hence if in the books he does end up sacrificing Shireen to fight a different threat it is essentially the same story just condensed, to clear the way for other stories. In terms of the horses they will be needed for future campaigns, not just sieging winterfell (and in fact a besieging army needs to send out foraging parties) And yes again I think people are too bogged down with the "twenty good men". The show hasn't got time for a sequence of scenes taking 10 minutes or so to fully flesh this out. They managed to infiltrate a camp where the sentries are freezing and blinded by a blizzard and half the army could switch sides if the price were right, it is possible, move on. I actually liked the Stannis storyline. It offered a plot arc and a resolution (both sadly missing for most characters in AFFC/ADWD) it was powerful and harked back to deeper mythology than simply the middle ages, In fact it is a very similar story to Agamemnon in many details. It was slightly rushed but it offered the perfect conclusion IMO to the story that started when Melisandrei mistakenly thought he was Azor Ahai reborn, he did indeed sacrifice everything and turn to ash and it was all for nothing. Neither you, nor I nor the audience nor any character we see in the show considers the threat of the Boltons to be synonymous with the threat of the White Walkers. And because of that, the sacrifice can never be the decision made in extremist circumstances that the show wants us to think it is. Which is a result of the writers condesing the story I admit (assuming that the sequence of events in the book happens like the show) but that doesn't make it a good idea. People do get bogged down with the "20 good men" because it's what's known as a "hand wave"; storytelling at its most perfunctory. The internal logic collapses when examined - blizzards obscure everybody's view, including would-be infiltrators. They also make it very difficult to start supply burning fires, which, despite the weather, were all lit simultaneously and without incident. So now you're arguing that Stannis considered cooking his horses and decided that that would be too great a sacrifice for his cause - but burning his daughter was just what the doctor ordered? Do I need to rebut this? Nice dig at the books there but I'm not getting sucked into that argument. A lot of people have been using the Agamemnon reference, but I find its use erroneous. Agamemnon made his sacrifice and was rewarded with favorable winds to Troy and ultimate victory, only to be murdered by his wife and her lover on the journey home. Stannis burned his daughter - an act which seemed likely to destroy the morale of his army - and seemed surprised to see that the morale of his army was destroyed and his campaign finished in a scene transition. It's the difference between operatic tragedy and near comical farce. The equivalent would be if Agamemnon gets his favourable winds... which smash the entire fleet against the harbour wall. It's almost as if trivializing and truncating a storyline meant for grand tragedy is a poor idea... and more than a little heartless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoreOrLess Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 I don't agree that the Stannis decision comes out of nowhere, besides of course the actions he's taken on the show prior I think you can see in the scene were he rejects the first suggestion of sacrificing shireen there is clearly indecision in him with the rejection being partly the sudden shock of whats being asked of him. Again I think the problem for some people is that the show last season especially tends to play Stannis in a more subtle fashion depending on Dilane's acting not just the script to get the message across. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter's Cold Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 D&D literally said that Stannis did this for ambition. I am glad you are finally realizing how terrible they are at handling this show. There's plenty of room on the Rant and Rave train. D&D interprets that claim as Stannis' excuse to pursue the throne and to commit whatever despicable acts he wants to. Since we don't have Stannis' pov we don't know for sure which one it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tolsimir Posted August 11, 2015 Share Posted August 11, 2015 D&D interprets that claim as Stannis' excuse to pursue the throne and to commit whatever despicable acts he wants to. Since we don't have Stannis' pov we don't know for sure which one it is. So you agree that D&D don't know what the fuck they are doing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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