People forget the most important reason he's coming back (B&S spoilers)

[Ben H'gahr]

I see what you are saying. Well, I'm going to buy the last 2 books on Sunday and start reading then^^.

I tried not to be prejudging them - I mean isn't this the most logical thing to do when you are strong and the people who are in your way (who, possibly also defeated you or broke a truce) that you advance and try to take what's yours?

But you are right: What do we ACTUALLY know about the Others and their intentions? Do we even know that they eve plan to go beyond the Wall? Maybe there's no need for AA / TPTWP at all (and then Jon Snows death is not so important after all).

[ummester]

I see what you are saying. Well, I'm going to buy the last 2 books on Sunday and start reading then^^.

I tried not to be prejudging them - I mean isn't this the most logical thing to do when you are strong and the people who are in your way (who, possibly also defeated you or broke a truce) that you advance and try to take what's yours?

But you are right: What do we ACTUALLY know about the Others and their intentions? Do we even know that they eve plan to go beyond the Wall? Maybe there's no need for AA / TPTWP at all (and then Jon Snows death is not so important after all).

That is another possibility - that they are just bringing all the human dead to the wall to give them back to the peoples of Westeros. Perhaps they just don't want human corpses north of the wall? Perhaps they just want to keep that one last area clean of humanity? Perhaps they just want to remind the humans in Westeros why they (or the Children of the Forrest, on their behalf) built the wall in the first place - to keep humans out of the far north.

A couple of things have never made sense to me.

Why built an ice wall to protect your land from ice wizards?

Why have people living on the other side of that ice wall if you know there are dangerous things there?

[kissdbyfire]

<snip>

A couple of things have never made sense to me.

Why built an ice wall to protect your land from ice wizards?

Why have people living on the other side of that ice wall if you know there are dangerous things there?

I'm not sure I understand what you mean there... :dunno:

[ummester]

Why do the Wildlings even live North of the wall, if the whole reason that the wall was erected was to keep the nasty White Walkers away?

If I put up a fence with a 'warning, dangerous dog' sign on it, surely common sense would dictate that any kind of existence on the other side of the fence would be perilous?

[....]

Why do the Wildlings even live North of the wall, if the whole reason that the wall was erected was to keep the nasty White Walkers away?

If I put up a fence with a 'warning, dangerous dog' sign on it, surely common sense would dictate that any kind of existence on the other side of the fence would be perilous?

The vast majority of southerners don't know or care why the wall is there. For countless centuries the Others however haven't been enough of a factor to prevent certain people wanting to live there. The latter's reasons are: not having to kneel, escape justice for their crimes, etc.. That "whole reason" has been almost completely lost to the ages.

Can you point out where presently there is a parallel to the 'sign' part of your analogy? What warning is there other than the sheer difficulty of the so unfamiliar wall itself? It's not the Night's Watch, because prior to recent events they had a very old tradition of coming to believe as virtually all southerners do - that the Others are myths and the top dangers there are unpleasant wildlings and general lawlessness, which again is appealling to some...all they gotta do is 'hop' or move around the signless fence.

A couple of things have never made sense to me.

Why built an ice wall to protect your land from ice wizards?

Why have people living on the other side of that ice wall if you know there are dangerous things there?

The Children/First Men couldn't wipe out those 'wizards'. The wall was the makeshift solution. It appears they anticipated either a future assault they might have failed to repel openly, or an endless conflict with 'wizards' prancing down and wreaking havoc whenever they felt like it, and couldn't be pursued back into the far north (aside from the brutal climate, perhaps the Others have magical 'home advantages' there that the Children couldn't overcome).

It's my view that the wildlings were not there originally, and 'regular' people had abandoned those areas during the conflict. People moved there as ignorance about the wall's original purpose increased. That could've began relatively very soon, given the Others not attacking the wall and 'kids' not believing their parents' 'stories'. Hardened fugitives, insane people, and adventurers/hunters with large cojones would've likely formed the base of the first wildlings.

[ummester]

How do the Southerners not know the wall is there if they keep sending men to it?

How can anyone possibly think that something 700 ft high and 300 miles long wasn't raised with some kind of blocking purpose?

Plus, 700 ft x 300 miles is the opposite of makeshift :D Especially when it has been standing for 8,000 years!

If the Children were so afraid of the Others home advantage, why did they retreat north of the Wall also?

Why do people have to hop around the sign less fence? If a group of people went to the Nights Watch and said, 'I want to go north, can you open the gate please?' Would the Nights Watch (prior to rediscovering the Other's, have had any reason to stop them? The Nights Watch are the sign, way I see it. They are the watchers on the wall. Their presence warns that thw wall (in at least one direction) is meant to guard against something.

[....]

How do the Southerners not know the wall is there if they keep sending men to it?

How can anyone possibly think that something 700 ft high and 300 miles long wasn't raised with some kind of blocking purpose?

Plus, 700 ft x 300 miles is the opposite of makeshift :D Especially when it has been standing for 8,000 years!

If the Children were so afraid of the Others home advantage, why did they retreat north of the Wall also?

Why do people have to hop around the sign less fence? If a group of people went to the Nights Watch and said, 'I want to go north, can you open the gate please?' Would the Nights Watch (prior to rediscovering the Other's, have had any reason to stop them? The Nights Watch are the sign, way I see it. They are the watchers on the wall. Their presence warns that thw wall (in at least one direction) is meant to guard against something.

I did not say that southerners don't know the wall is there, I said that the vast majority of them don't care, with their poor, smallfolksy lives. Lords send criminals there not because they care about the wall's purpose but because they simply want to be rid of the criminals.

The original purpose of the wall is almost completely unknown to the vast majority of people, including the Night's Watch. It obviously has a blocking purpose, but wildlings are the only apparent reason for it... some people may hear and wonder about the Others, but they're probably a myth, silly!

Didn't mean makeshift as 'cheap', but the 'substitute' definition of it. It was a substitute solution since they obviously couldn't wipe out the Others.

The Children probably returned beyond the wall due to the Others having retreated for reasons unknown. My guess is they were busy recovering and figuring out how to bring down the wall.

The Night's Watch don't want people joining the ranks of the wildlings, whom they have come to believe are the most dangerous threat beyond the wall.

[ummester]

The Children probably returned beyond the wall due to the Others having retreated for reasons unknown. My guess is they were busy recovering and figuring out how to bring down the wall.

Why would magical creatures with power over ice have to devise a plan to bring down an ice wall? Yes, I know Ygritte thinks it's made of blood but it's not red (or brown) so she seems a bit off. And, even if it is laced with blood, or some kind of magical ward, the Others could still separate the ice from the ward, couldn't they?

The Night's Watch don't want people joining the ranks of the wildlings, whom they have come to believe are the most dangerous threat beyond the wall.

And then Jon realized they weren't. Foreshadowing, perhaps, for Jon also learning the Others are not that bad either?

[Ben H'gahr]

Why do the Wildlings even live North of the wall, if the whole reason that the wall was erected was to keep the nasty White Walkers away?

If I put up a fence with a 'warning, dangerous dog' sign on it, surely common sense would dictate that any kind of existence on the other side of the fence would be perilous?

Simply b/c by chance they were living north of the spot where the Wall was built at the time when it was built.

[kissdbyfire]

Simply b/c by chance they were living north of the spot where the Wall was built at the time when it was built.

Not really. Martin said it took hundreds of years to build the Wall, and possibly thousands for it to reach its current height. :)

"Yes, the Wall was much smaller when first raised. It took hundreds of years to complete and thousands to reach it's present height."

And:

"But one thing I will say, for what it's worth -- more than ice went into the raising of the Wall. Remember, these are =fantasy= novels."

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Wall/

[....]

Why would magical creatures with power over ice have to devise a plan to bring down an ice wall? Yes, I know Ygritte thinks it's made of blood but it's not red (or brown) so she seems a bit off. And, even if it is laced with blood, or some kind of magical ward, the Others could still separate the ice from the ward, couldn't they?

And then Jon realized they weren't. Foreshadowing, perhaps, for Jon also learning the Others are not that bad either?

The Children's magic is/was probably extremely different from that of the Others'. It could've altered the ice beyond the capability of the Others. Or perhaps their ice magic would have been effective to some degree, but they needed a very long time to recover, let the Children's magic wane, and/or focus their energies on the task. Perhaps they've even had capability to bring it down for a while now but have chosen to build a bit more strength and wait until the south was particularly ripe (e.g. when the kingdoms have much internal chaos, almost no one has a clue about the Others, and the Night's Watch are a shell).

It's quite cliched but still somewhat interesting that Jon & co have realised that, about the wildlings, and the challenges surrounding it all. I've seen your posts on the Others perhaps not being so 'bad', or even some sort of saviors. I think that's potentially interesting, but currently I've nothing to offer. My assumption, especially for the TV show, is that they're merely supposed to be the ultimate, one-dimensional baddies. I would love some sort of decent twist there, but I'll just wait and see...

[ummester]

Related to this, I just read the most amazing and obvious theory as to why the Others are coming south.

Because Ned buried Lyanna in the Winterfell crypts - duh, so obvious. Lyanna is the only woman buried there, ever - unless you subscribe to the theory that the woman the Nights King loved is also there, or at least her spirit and that is now in Lyanna. Anyways, however it's going to play out, it seems the Nights King is coming south for a his Queen (new or old).

[Ben H'gahr]

Not really. Martin said it took hundreds of years to build the Wall, and possibly thousands for it to reach its current height. :)

"Yes, the Wall was much smaller when first raised. It took hundreds of years to complete and thousands to reach it's present height."

And:

"But one thing I will say, for what it's worth -- more than ice went into the raising of the Wall. Remember, these are =fantasy= novels."

http://www.westeros.org/Citadel/SSM/Entry/The_Wall/

Thanks for the info and the correction!

[julynnastarkfan]

For me the most "obvious" reason for why Jon "must" come back is the average level of quality of GRRM's writing:

Jon was built up as character over five books, he is the major character in one of the major plotlines (Others Invasion / the Wall), this is HIS story (independent of any R+L=J / AA / tPtwP speculation or so).

If he dies, his sole purpose was to bring a bunch of Wildlings to the other side of the Wall, eventually so that the Wall can be manned for the big Endgame w/the Others or even just to save some souls maybe. Great, and that's it or what?

For this you don't need to build up a character over five books, let him go through all sorts of "character building" events and create all sorts of mystery around him, like the question about his mother. Why should his mother matter if his job is only to be the dude who brings a couple of additional fighters to the Wall?

This is, independent of any supporting facts like Mel being at the Wall etc, a reason why there must be more about Jon Snow than had been told / shown so far. He still has a role to play.

Ok, here is my theory of The Saga of Ice and Fire. I have always believed that the story is about the Starks, Jon Snow and Dany, and them defeating the white walkers. Sansa and Arya really aren't able to help defeat the WW but Bran as the next Greenseer will be able to help.The other characters and everything else is part of what occurs before the white walkers try to take over. I haven't figured out who the third head is to the dragon, but I know that Jon, Dany and Bran are who the story is about.

[julynnastarkfan]

I did not say that southerners don't know the wall is there, I said that the vast majority of them don't care, with their poor, smallfolksy lives. Lords send criminals there not because they care about the wall's purpose but because they simply want to be rid of the criminals.

The original purpose of the wall is almost completely unknown to the vast majority of people, including the Night's Watch. It obviously has a blocking purpose, but wildlings are the only apparent reason for it... some people may hear and wonder about the Others, but they're probably a myth, silly!

Didn't mean makeshift as 'cheap', but the 'substitute' definition of it. It was a substitute solution since they obviously couldn't wipe out the Others.

The Children probably returned beyond the wall due to the Others having retreated for reasons unknown. My guess is they were busy recovering and figuring out how to bring down the wall.

The Night's Watch don't want people joining the ranks of the wildlings, whom they have come to believe are the most dangerous threat beyond the wall.

Isn't the magic stronger north of the wall? There are still giants, The Children, etc.... The Citadel has basically suppressed all the magic, and people don't believe in it any longer.

[mrs snow]

Put it this way, the only way Jon is out of play is if Martin definitively killed him in the books.

And lets be real the show all but confirmed R+L=J when they had that episode where Stannis said "it's not Ned Stark's way to father a bastard", Sansa said Rheagar kidnapped and raped Lyanna and LF gave her that look like "child please", and Selmy gave that speech about how nice a guy Rheagar was. It's just as obvious in the books. Knowing that theory it's almost hard to read all the Ned chapters in the book without thinking "oh this makes so much more sense if that's true".

these are the exact scenes i am pinning my hopes on too.....why have them without jon being around.. i thought so much of this season seemed like little clues setting up next season

[Valhalla Morghulis]

Well as I said in the other thread if GRRM is going for shock and awe rather than a more conventional epic story, then he will leave no real clues and these will be only misdirection and red herrings. Ned's death was pretty much out of the blue as were the Red Wedding's, so Jon's could be the next. And if this is truly the theme and mood of the saga, Valar Morghulis, then  there will be more shocks in store, including the climax.

[kissdbyfire]

Well as I said in the other thread if GRRM is going for shock and awe rather than a more conventional epic story, then he will leave no real clues and these will be only misdirection and red herrings. Ned's death was pretty much out of the blue as were the Red Wedding's, so Jon's could be the next. And if this is truly the theme and mood of the saga, Valar Morghulis, then there will be more shocks in store, including the climax.

Maybe it's time for you to re-read the books. The events you say came out of the blue were foreshadowed in the books. As a matter of fact, the foreshadowing for Ned's death is more subtle, but the RW's is clear as day.
Martin has also stated that twists must grow out of characters and situations and not come out of the blue.

"I’m still weighing whether to go that direction or not. It’s a great twist. It’s easy to do things that are shocking or unexpected, but they have to grow out of characters. They have to grow out of situations. Otherwise, it’s just being shocking for being shocking".

http://www.ew.com/article/2015/04/03/george-rr-martin-winds-date

[Zoe Stark]

Well as I said in the other thread if GRRM is going for shock and awe rather than a more conventional epic story, then he will leave no real clues and these will be only misdirection and red herrings. Ned's death was pretty much out of the blue as were the Red Wedding's, so Jon's could be the next. And if this is truly the theme and mood of the saga, Valar Morghulis, then  there will be more shocks in store, including the climax.

I agree with you about the shocking end game thing as well, but why waste his time planting little seeds in our head that Jon is a Targaryen? It might not be Jon's death that shocks us all, it might be Dany, considering how many people love her. In my opinion, Jon and Dany, in a very subtle way, mirror each other as ice and fire. No one really hates either character, they're the "good guys" in their own separate ways. So the shock effect might not be relevant in Jon's character as much as we think it is.

 

I see how Ned and the Red Wedding's deaths are comparable to Jon's in that they're all out of the blue, but Ned and Robb are both very flat characters. The only thing those characters did to advance the story was die. In life, Jon seems to be a much more complex character than them, so I doubt that he is expendable. GRRM has spent all this time hinting at R+L=J, but for what? For him to just troll us? Yes, it's just a theory, and the secret Targaryen role could be given to another character, but that is very unlikely considering how far along both the show and the books have gotten. But I don't think those things were thrown around by George just for the hell of it.

 

Even if we were made to believe that Jon is a secret Targaryen and he's not, there is a point to all the hints and prophecies.

 

As much as I want him to, I do think people are wasting their time convincing themselves that Jon will or will not come back. In my opinion he will, but he also might not. GRRM and D&D are going to do whatever the hell they want and there's no arguing with that, but there's something bigger than Jon's death/resurrection coming. It's just a matter of what and when.

[BlueDragon]

I'm actually kind of hoping is dead for dead now. People keep insisting he can't be dead, but really there's no reason for that, as evidenced by all the posts here, all the reasons he can't be dead are really just reasons people don't want him to be dead. 

 

The real question is, does Jon's true death serve a purpose at this point in the story? Well yes, it actually does, Jon is at the moment the only person that can get the wildlings to coorperate, his death sows the chaos that allows the wall to fall and the true war to begin. Ned's death kicked off the war of five kings, why can't Jon's death kick off the WW war?

 

I agree that Jon's death will cause the wall to fall. Two Lord Commanders assassinated in a row will be too much betrayal for the Wall's magic to sustain.

 

If Azor Ahai must plunge his sword into his love to temper it, Jon has already done that twice in a sense: Ygritte and the Wall itself have been fatally wounded.

 

 

 

But we already know that this can't be true.

 

We know, for instance, that the books will end with Robb Stark having married Jeyne Westerling. We know that the books will end with Jon Snow not having been stabbed by a kid named Olly. We also know that the books will end with Arya not having killed Meryn Trant in a brothel in Braavos. We know the books will end in a very different way than the series because the series has already shown us that.

 

This idea that the books and the show will end as the same story has already been proven false.

 

This is just silly. Please stop trolling. 

 

No it hasn't I think you are taking a  literal play by play approach. If it ends with Jon on the throne and Dany dead, and the books end that way, then it is the same. Even if the paths are different. 

 

Yes. Things can change in the middle, but those changes will not be material to the ending.

 

Because they haven't revealed it, and it would serve no point to be like "Oh there was another Targaryen but he's dead now." 

 

Please, can someone start a thread on this alone.

 

For the balance, if Jon is paired with fire Dany, he should also be paired with someone ice like Bran or Arya or Sansa.

 

Okay, after thought, I get this now.

 

Also, if we look at Martin's original letter outlining the series linked above, but I will link again, he says certain characters will prevail to the end (not necessary at the very end though):

 

"The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, Danerys Targarean, Arya, Bran and the bastard Jon Snow"

 

Now, a ton of things have changed since Martin wrote that letter, but do you guys actually think this list would change?

 

http://winteriscoming.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/02/Martin-pitck-2.jpg

 

Everything I feel about these characters tells me they are the big guns in the story.

 

I think Rickon should also survive, but not as a key player, as an inheritor.

 

Sansa is probably destined for nothing much at all. Maybe she will be the aunt to Rickon's children, grooming them in the Stark ways as Rickon will have been too young to have absorbed what he needed to before his family was split.