Conspiracy of the Citadel (or the secret society of grey men)

[Pain killer Jane]

And just developing it a bit further... such a big conspiracy extended all over the kingdom could only be possible with an effective control of information and communications... and since Maesters are the ones in charge of breeding and growing the ravens, they would probably be the best informed side in all Westeros by far.

That is true but you have Blood Raven who has a thousand and one eyes. Bloodraven has probably been spying on them and that will probably be something Bran will learn.

[AlaynConY]

That is true but you have Blood Raven who has a thousand and one eyes. Bloodraven has probably been spying on them and that will probably be something Bran will learn.

Good point.

[Pain killer Jane]

Oh and didn't Leaf say that the deceased souls of CotF inhabit Ravens as well?

[Venom]

I definitely agree with you on Dany. I believe that the assassin would make alot of sense coming from them. They clearly want to keep dragons away and are planing something. Why would Varys, master of whispers easily miss an assasination attempt without really trying to protect the queen of dragons. He may be backing Aegon, but still he is in leagues with all of them, so why let it happen.

Also for a while I have wondered about the north. Why would they work to rid the world of dragons, but let the warging north stay completely untouched? Magic is magic and if you don't want dragons, you don't want some giant Direwolves getting warged into. Without dragons, would the north/Starks have an advantage with the ability to still use the power of beasts, while the Targaryens would no longer have theirs?

Good post and good points. Kudos.

[StarkandBArryn]

Excellent post! The maesters and the potential conspiracies that surround them have long been an area of deep interest for me. Way to articulate so much well-documented speculation in one post.

[plectrum]

Really good post. The only thing in there that I would consider a bit of a stretch is the idea that the maesters would seek to marry the Starks with Southern houses in order to dilute their magic. I've always felt like the household maesters would not be a part of the the overarching plans of the Citadel. There are simply too many of them to keep it secret.

I think the maesters serving a family/castle are more likely to simply be trying to do the right thing by stitching the realm together via marriage. In particular the vast remote Northern kingdom, which is too physically far away to share much kinship with southern houses.

But yeah, great ideas.

[Mitbert Strangejoy]

Really good post. The only thing in there that I would consider a bit of a stretch is the idea that the maesters would seek to marry the Starks with Southern houses in order to dilute their magic. I've always felt like the household maesters would not be a part of the the overarching plans of the Citadel. There are simply too many of them to keep it secret.

I think the maesters serving a family/castle are more likely to simply be trying to do the right thing by stitching the realm together via marriage. In particular the vast remote Northern kingdom, which is too physically far away to share much kinship with southern houses.

But yeah, great ideas.

Regarding the household maesters, it really depends. You would only need to have a select few maesters be in on the conspiracy for it to work. Maester Walyce, for instance, has direct familial connections with both the Hightowers and an archmaester. He's a good candidate for a maester involved in deeper scheming. I also personally think that Cressen's connection to Archmaester Walgrave (who could also be connected to Walyce) makes him a compelling candidate. On the other hand, its clear that the Citadel generally isn't a monolith (e.g., Marwyn), so I would doubt a theory that put all maesters in on a single plot.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Also, maybe the fact that The Worlds of Ice and Fire is presented as a book written by a maester and it is clearly sided with the current Baratheon dinasty when narrating Robert's Rebellion, is a hint of the gap between the Maesters and the Targaryens.

And that could be extended to all the written history of Westeros stored in the Citadel. The ones in charge of recording the history are the ones who can distort it and drive public opinions and preferences to one side or the other. Any thoughts on it?

I really think that the "World of Ice and Fire" book had TONS of things to show us, but what I really got from it was how much the maesters refute things, and how much the Maesters CLEARLY are covering up many of the "truths" that lie within the magic of Planetos.

I mean for those that have read through the whole book, we see how much they really hated Septon Barth, even though he was actually more right than wrong about a lot of things.

We also definitely see the whole "history is written by the winners" effect with how they take certain views on subjects like The Dance of Dragons, and other disputes. They try to hide their censorship of magic as "intelligent skepticism" but we know better, and we know that they know better as well.

Furthermore, I remain curious as to what exactly the FM and Marwyn want to get from within the Citadel. Because the only reason an FM would be sniffing around there would be to get something.....and we know Real Pate stole the key for the Alchemist....

[sweetsunray]

Superb OP!

Regarding whether every maester is in on it... I regard the order of the maesters kindof like the order of the freemasons. Despite it being around for centuries, little is known about it from the inside. Secrecy is one of the most crucial aspects of freemasonry, even in liberal and modern times, because one can never know whether the world remains liberal and democratic and members could end up being hunted. It doesn't matter whether what they do when they gather is benign or malicious, completely innocent or consciously corrupt (depending on whatever you believe their goals are): secrecy is the first rule, and the reason why they're so often tied with conspiracies, even if they are not. So, in order to become a member, you must already believe in and back the necessity of secrecy, before you can be initiated. Once someone already agrees and backs that level of secrecy, they will hold to it, no matter what they know of the internal missions. That's how the freemasons remain secretive for outsiders for centuries, and why the order of the maesters could preserve it as well, even though they don't keep secret who is a member or not. On top of that, an order's mission can have several layers. Everyone would know the basic layer, but only those in the higher ranks would know the deeper layers, and only a very few would know the chore of it. Those hghest in rank would also believe more in the secrecy of it. The two will go hand in hand.

So, for examplle it's enough for one house maester to know that arranging marriages between houses from all over the realm will be enough if the mission is formulated to them as 'so houses of all regions have an interest in preserving peace in a completely different region'. Meanwhile another maester who achieved more might know the mission to be 'arrange inter marriages to dillute magical properties in the blood'. Both will cooperate and do the same, but both will do it for what seems to be different missions.

[OberynBlackfyre]

Really good post. The only thing in there that I would consider a bit of a stretch is the idea that the maesters would seek to marry the Starks with Southern houses in order to dilute their magic. I've always felt like the household maesters would not be a part of the the overarching plans of the Citadel. There are simply too many of them to keep it secret.

I think the maesters serving a family/castle are more likely to simply be trying to do the right thing by stitching the realm together via marriage. In particular the vast remote Northern kingdom, which is too physically far away to share much kinship with southern houses.

But yeah, great ideas.

I agree that, it does require A LOT more proof....however it's not THAT much of a stretch if you think about it.

The North has been resistant to change for a very long time. We know that the Seven have barely made a scratch on it, even though they have coexisted for thousands of years now. In fact, as far as we know, Winterfell didn't even get a Sept until Catelyn married into the Starks. And there are obviously enough accounts of "magical" suspect things in the North for the maesters to have counted them in the histories. So basically, it would be a slow and subtle process, but that's exactly what the maesters have been doing......patiently phasing out things they don't like.

[OberynBlackfyre]

double post

[OberynBlackfyre]

Superb OP!

Regarding whether every maester is in on it... I regard the order of the maesters kindof like the order of the freemasons. Despite it being around for centuries, little is known about it from the inside. Secrecy is one of the most crucial aspects of freemasonry, even in liberal and modern times, because one can never know whether the world remains liberal and democratic and members could end up being hunted. It doesn't matter whether what they do when they gather is benign or malicious, completely innocent or consciously corrupt (depending on whatever you believe their goals are): secrecy is the first rule, and the reason why they're so often tied with conspiracies, even if they are not. So, in order to become a member, you must already believe in and back the necessity of secrecy, before you can be initiated. Once someone already agrees and backs that level of secrecy, they will hold to it, no matter what they know of the internal missions. That's how the freemasons remain secretive for outsiders for centuries, and why the order of the maesters could preserve it as well, even though they don't keep secret who is a member or not. On top of that, an order's mission can have several layers. Everyone would know the basic layer, but only those in the higher ranks would know the deeper layers, and only a very few would know the chore of it. Those hghest in rank would also believe more in the secrecy of it. The two will go hand in hand.

So, for examplle it's enough for one house maester to know that arranging marriages between houses from all over the realm will be enough if the mission is formulated to them as 'so houses of all regions have an interest in preserving peace in a completely different region'. Meanwhile another maester who achieved more might know the mission to be 'arrange inter marriages to dillute magical properties in the blood'. Both will cooperate and do the same, but both will do it for what seems to be different missions.

Thank you for the praise! And I think you're basically right on the money. It is already very obvious that the maester order has people "in the know" and people who are probably pretty oblivious to what is truly going on. Like when I talk about Maester Luwin...he was a smart guy that could probably read patterns, which is why he could reasonably guess that the Citadel wanted the Starks to gain more influence in the South, through marriage. The new generation of children could prove for a convenient "re-do" as Baratheon/Stark had still remained friendly. So that's where you have the Sansa-Joffrey pact (Was this REALLY Roberts idea? I mean sure it seems completely reasonable, given his love for Ned. But why wait UNTIL NOW to ask? Even if Jon Arryn had just died so Ned could get the handship, why not send a raven up North about a marriage pact BEFORE the kids get too old? Why not take advantage of the years of peace between Greyjoys Rebellion and Jon Arryns death?), that Luwin also supported. Does he REALLY know they are trying to dilute the blood and all that? Probably not, but he can probably guess that it's within the Citadels interest to have the two Houses connected.

[mmenolas]

Grey is GRRM-speak for dead or death.

Grey Kings, undead kings.

Grey Water Watch, watching for the dead Grey King forces in the water.

Grey mists, the cold mists of death from the IceBrandon.

Greystarks, undead starks. etc.

So the Maesters in grey, are the men wrapping themselves in death. The death of the dragons, and who knows what.

You say grey symbolizes death, but then all of your examples are completely made up...

Grey King- Singular, not plural, not undead, just a legendary figure from Iron Islands history.

Greywater Watch- One word, there is nothing to imply this is what the name means. Also the Grey King is a legend from the Iron Islands, which are to the West of Westeros, Greywater Watch falls on the Eastern half of the continent.

Grey Mists- Used only in AGOT Bran 3, AFFC Cersei 8, and ADWD Mel 1. Some connections to death, more to dreams about death.

Greystarks- Another Stark offshoot, held The Wolfs Den for centuries. Nothing suggests they have anything to do with death.

If you're going to try to present "evidence" of something, it helps not to just make things up. Sometimes I wonder if I'm even reading the same books as you.

[OberynBlackfyre]

You say grey symbolizes death, but then all of your examples are completely made up...

Grey King- Singular, not plural, not undead, just a legendary figure from Iron Islands history.

Greywater Watch- One word, there is nothing to imply this is what the name means. Also the Grey King is a legend from the Iron Islands, which are to the West of Westeros, Greywater Watch falls on the Eastern half of the continent.

Grey Mists- Used only in AGOT Bran 3, AFFC Cersei 8, and ADWD Mel 1. Some connections to death, more to dreams about death.

Greystarks- Another Stark offshoot, held The Wolfs Den for centuries. Nothing suggests they have anything to do with death.

If you're going to try to present "evidence" of something, it helps not to just make things up. Sometimes I wonder if I'm even reading the same books as you.

Even though his examples were a little iffy, using "grey" for death has been somewhat used within the series:

-The Silent Sisters/Stoneheart are garbed in grey, the "handmaids" of death.

-Greyscale- pretty much the deadliest sickness within the series.

[sweetsunray]

Even though his examples were a little iffy, using "grey" for death has been somewhat used within the series:

-The Silent Sisters/Stoneheart are garbed in grey, the "handmaids" of death.

-Greyscale- pretty much the deadliest sickness within the series.

And yet it's not the color of the epitonomous guild of "death" (the FM of the Many Faced God): they wear robes of "black and white". While it's true that if you mix up black and white you get "grey", still the robes are black-white and not grey for a reason. Grey is related to the Stranger somewhat though and he's the symbol of death within the Faith. But then the "maesters" wear "grey" robes as well, and they're not a death cult either, nor symbolize the stranger. If a color were to symbolize or be a hint by GRRM for the readers, then the color would function as that symbol overall, independently of the religion or the order. We know that to be not true.

[OberynBlackfyre]

And yet it's not the color of the epitonomous guild of "death" (the FM of the Many Faced God): they wear robes of "black and white". While it's true that if you mix up black and white you get "grey", still the robes are black-white and not grey for a reason. Grey is related to the Stranger somewhat though and he's the symbol of death within the Faith. But then the "maesters" wear "grey" robes as well, and they're not a death cult either, nor symbolize the stranger.

I was seriously going to put FM in here on the list as both black AND white....but we don't know enough about them yet. Like I would like to think they had an agenda more than just being hired assassins, I mean they are from Braavos after all, so I imagine they are anti slavery.

Also, I really wanted to deal with orders that have to swear oaths and are in "service" to the realm of Westeros. ANd with the Maesters, I think their anti magic views might be perceived as negative, but for all we know they might have really GOOD REASON to be that way. I think their intentions are (like them) for the good AND bad of the realm.

[DarkSister1001]

There's also Greyguard on the Wall. It's where Jon and the wildlings climbed the Wall and he was going to send Janos Slynt there to command it.

[OberynBlackfyre]

There's also Greyguard on the Wall. It's where Jon and the wildlings climbed the Wall and he was going to send Janos Slynt there to command it.

and we all know what happened to Janos Slynt!

[OberynBlackfyre]

I also find it interesting that in the World Book, the "poisonous" butterflies of Naath are also BLACK AND WHITE.........

[sweetsunray]

I was seriously going to put FM in here on the list as both black AND white....but we don't know enough about them yet. Like I would like to think they had an agenda more than just being hired assassins, I mean they are from Braavos after all, so I imagine they are anti slavery.

Also, I really wanted to deal with orders that have to swear oaths and are in "service" to the realm of Westeros. ANd with the Maesters, I think their anti magic views might be perceived as negative, but for all we know they might have really GOOD REASON to be that way. I think their intentions are (like them) for the good AND bad of the realm.

You could even claim that the FM founded Braavos. The first FM assisted slaves in the Valyrian mines in finding the death they prayed for. For a time, that's all the first FM did - kill the slaves who prayed to be put out of their misery. As slaves were from different regions all over, they had different gods they prayed to for this death. Hence he realized there was actually only one true god 'Death' but with many faces for the worshipers. Then one slave does not pray for his own death, but prays for the death of a slave master, and the slave says in his prayer he would give anything he has for the slave master to be killed. So, the FM thinks "alright, I'll answer that prayer too," kills the master and then tells the slave who prayed for it that he answered his prayer, and now he must give everything he has, and all he has as a slave is his life, and so he must become a servant of the Many Faced God, and that slave becomes the second FM. It is heavily implied that the FM caused the doom of Valyria, to bring down the empire of slave masters. Braavos was founded by runaway slaves, and kept hidden from knowledge for a very long time. So, the FM are probably the founders of Braavos itself. Anything remotely like slavery is forbidden - slavery, reaving, ... And Braavos is the city with the main house of the FM, perhaps the sole house of black and white in Planetos.

While they have joint dislike for dragons with the maesters, they do not shun magic itself. The wearing of the faces is a form of magic, and they know how to glamor too. I think for example that the price Euron had to pay for the murder of Balon was to chuck his dragon egg overboard. He wants to posess a dragon, and the FM made sure at least one egg ended up at the bottom of the ocean, and no dragon could ever come off it.

The representation of the FM is very deceptive imo: supposedly they ask outrageous sums of money (per LF). Personally I think they didn't want to kill the person LF inquired the price for, and they just said a sum they knew he'd say "No way, I can buy 2 sellsword armies for that." It's a tactic where they haven't said "no" in an outright way, but ensure the one trying to hire them forgets about the whole idea. It's said they kill both good and bad man. And yet, with the info and the targets we know of - the FM assist the good people who pray for suicide (they kill the good), and assassinate the parasites somebody else wants dead (and sometimes almost for free. Arya throws an axe at a cage on fire, and she gets to name 3, with Jaqen insisting on Joffrey - a king - being hte last name). Sure, the kindly man tells Arya it's not for her to judge her given targets... it doesn't mean that the FM don't judge, just that an acolyte called Arya who's carrying out a mission shouldn't concern herself with rationalisations and judgement.

The kindly man assures Arya that the abusive father of the ugly girl is dead. She asks then, whether the FM killed him. He answers her question twice by not really answering. First he says the ugly girl didn't pray for the father's death, only her own (well he didn't say the latter, but that's evident since they have her face). The second time he says the abusive father died like all men do (implying either some accident or natural death nothing to do with the FM), but then he ends the sentence with 'just like a certain man will die tomorrow'. And we all know how the ship insurance conman dies - by Arya's sleight of hand and poison provided by the FM. So, in fact I believe the abusive father was killed by an FM, without someone actively praying for it. If the faces of the dead tell the story of the person wanting to die, then the FM can possibly use that to find their own targets.That seems to go against what Arya is taught, but it isn't. These are the inner workings of the FM she as an acolyte cannot know about. And the kindly man mostly talks in terms "it's not your [fill in whatever you like]".

At face value, Arya's blindness seems a punishment for her killing the deserter, and yet in fact it's the next step into her training from servant to acolyte. She kills the singer deserter, unauthorized, and she gets a training of her senses that we know other acolytes go through as well. Once she conquers the test, she gets to be an acolyte and her first assignment. Seems to me, they weren't so bothered by her choice of target and the manner in which she did it. They just don't want to tell her that.

Don't know why so many readers loathe the FM or find Arya's chapters with them so boring... I find them very subtly written. You truly need to read between the lines of what's happening.