Changes you liked better in the show than in the book in season 5

[protar]

You're crazy. It was probably the best directed action scene I've ever seen on the small screen.

Nonsense. Excessive shaky cam, looking through the gap in the door as the monsters charge at you from the other side, dying after saying goodbye to your loved ones, incredibly obvious plot armour for the protagonist.

I'm not saying it sucked. It was still fairly enjoyable to watch. And as a self-contained narrative it was good - you could watch just this episode and you'd get the impression that GoT was a pretty great show. I think that's a big part of why GoT continues to garner critical acclaim. Because in isolation scenes are usually pretty good even if they don't make a consistent whole. Anyway, my point is that while Hardhome was good, it was not some saving grace of the season, and ultimately it was a waste of time because they ignored the consequences of it.

[protar]

Protar (my quote button doesn't work).

Jon was killed, not because of the aftermath of hardhome, but because members of the Nightswatch simply can not accept the fact that Wildlings (yes, these people call them wildlings in stead of free folk) have passed though the wall.

For them, the wall is there to protect against the Wildlings, they have fought their entire lives against them (not Olly, he lost his parents to a Wildling attack).

For these people, it is inconceivable to accept a Lord Commander that will allow the Wildlings to enter the 7 kingdoms. It's like Obama opening the border with Mexico. Can you imagine how the average Texan would respond to that?

All the horror stories of the wights attacking the living are simply ignored by them, because they are told by traitors or Wildlings, so they can not be true. They don't care what's happening beyond the wall, as long as it still standing (which it is) and as long as they can kill Wildlings (which they can't now, because they were given passage trough the wall).

Plenty of Night's Watchmen made it back as well. And we don't even see Jon trying to convince the senior officers that shit is going down beyond the wall and it's time to unite. So all that stuff is really just your headcanon. We don't see any of that conflict on screen.

And if Alliser is so against Jon and the wildlings why let them back through in the first place?

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

No, we seen Jon talking with Sam about this. Do we really need to see the same conversation 3 or 4 times? That would be a waste of screentime. If he talked about it to Sam, he will have talked about it with other members of the NW.

Would you (as a border patrol captain) refuse Obama to enter the country from the border in Mexico? Especially since he has 50 of his/your own men with him, accompanied by Mexican refugees?

Some character depth here: Alliser is a man who obeys orders, even if he disagrees with them. He is not someone who quickly discards a direct order. We do not see any other NW members openly complaining, but somewhere and somehow this must have happened, it's not just Olly and Alliser killing Jon. There are at least 12 other NW members at the stabbing, he is stabbed by Alliser, then 4 NW members, only to end with Olly.

These people don't just suddenly gather, these people spent some time together to gather the courage to do this (and to persuade Alliser it is the right thing to do). As dutiful as Alliser is, he has his concerns about the decision, and is finally persuaded. Do we see this on-screen? Of course not, it has to remain a secret for the public.

[protar]

No, we seen Jon talking with Sam about this. Do we really need to see the same conversation 3 or 4 times? That would be a waste of screentime. If he talked about it to Sam, he will have talked about it with other members of the NW.

Would you (as a border patrol captain) refuse Obama to enter the country from the border in Mexico? Especially since he has 50 of his/your own men with him, accompanied by Mexican refugees?

Some character depth here: Alliser is a man who obeys orders, even if he disagrees with them. He is not someone who quickly discards a direct order. We do not see any other NW members openly complaining, but somewhere and somehow this must have happened, it's not just Olly and Alliser killing Jon. There are at least 12 other NW members at the stabbing, he is stabbed by Alliser, then 4 NW members, only to end with Olly.

These people don't just suddenly gather, these people spent some time together to gather the courage to do this (and to persuade Alliser it is the right thing to do). As dutiful as Alliser is, he has his concerns about the decision, and is finally persuaded. Do we see this on-screen? Of course not, it has to remain a secret for the public.

So what if he talks about it with Sam? Sam is already on his side. We needed to see Jon talking to the other senior officers about this. You cannot just give the show credit for scenes that you made up in your head. They didn't mention what should have been an important scene, so it didn't happen. Hell, we didn't even get one line where Jon references talking to Alliser and Marsh.

Jon's stabbing just makes no sense. There was no build up of increasing dissatisfaction with his leadership (or not any that made any sense because Jon ruled very well and made few controversial decisions) because unlike in the books the wildlings and NW were not forced to work with one another. Jon's entire arc in ADWD was about enlisting the Wildlings as soldiers and workers and trying to integrate them into the NW and northern society, and the NW's complaints (both logistical and emotional) against that. In the show that doesn't start until E8 and then Thorne lets Jon through the Wall in E9, so...what gives? If he was so anti-wildling just don't let Jon in. He committed mutiny for god's sake, you think he wouldn't have locked Jon out if he wanted to? And then, as I've already mentioned, due to the battle at Hardhome the threat of the Others should really have outweighed the threat of the wildlings. In the books this is what happens for months - as much as they don't like it the NW like Bowen Marsh realise that they must work with the wildlings. And that's without such an immediate threat from the Others. Their decision to turn on Jon is a very slow breaking, finally brought to the boiling point by Jon outright deciding to desert.

In the show....Alliser lets the Wildlings through, but then immediately decides that this is bad and kills Jon.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

So what if he talks about it with Sam? Sam is already on his side. We needed to see Jon talking to the other senior officers about this. You cannot just give the show credit for scenes that you made up in your head. They didn't mention what should have been an important scene, so it didn't happen. Hell, we didn't even get one line where Jon references talking to Alliser and Marsh.

Jon's stabbing just makes no sense. There was no build up of increasing dissatisfaction with his leadership (or not any that made any sense because Jon ruled very well and made few controversial decisions) because unlike in the books the wildlings and NW were not forced to work with one another. Jon's entire arc in ADWD was about enlisting the Wildlings as soldiers and workers and trying to integrate them into the NW and northern society, and the NW's complaints (both logistical and emotional) against that. In the show that doesn't start until E8 and then Thorne lets Jon through the Wall in E9, so...what gives? If he was so anti-wildling just don't let Jon in. He committed mutiny for god's sake, you think he wouldn't have locked Jon out if he wanted to? And then, as I've already mentioned, due to the battle at Hardhome the threat of the Others should really have outweighed the threat of the wildlings. In the books this is what happens for months - as much as they don't like it the NW like Bowen Marsh realise that they must work with the wildlings. And that's without such an immediate threat from the Others. Their decision to turn on Jon is a very slow breaking, finally brought to the boiling point by Jon outright deciding to desert.

In the show....Alliser lets the Wildlings through, but then immediately decides that this is bad and kills Jon.

The entire season had be telegraphing it. In fact the telegraphing was over the top at times if you knew it was coming. How many scenes do we have to see of Ollie looking annoyed? The Crows dissatisfaction about the Wildlings being there was brought up A LOT of times, its impossible to miss it, it wasn't subtle.

[TheTowerOfJoy]

If Protar and the other book snobs had their way, about 70% of the screen time this season would be spent with characters not talking, staring into the distance with thought bubbles explaining their inner thoughts over their heads, because that's what actually happened throughout the last two books.

[WSmith84]

If Protar and the other book snobs had their way, about 70% of the screen time this season would be spent with characters not talking, staring into the distance with thought bubbles explaining their inner thoughts over their heads, because that's what actually happened throughout the last two books.

Right... Because anyone who demands a bit of narrative logic and character consistency is a 'book snob'...

[Ser Walter of AShwood]

Hey TheTowerOfJoy, back off here!!! I'm a book snob as well :ack: :dunno: (just kidding).

Part of me has to agree with Protos, because the build-up was not done properly. First of all, why have the Wildlings go through the wall in stead of sailing to Eastwatch by the sea and offboarding on the safe side of the wall (that way, Stannis has his ships back as well).

Second, why have the Alliser/Jon staredown and open the gates. It is a weird part in the story.... I understand why they did it (it adds to some of the suspense and shows that Alliser is obeying orders), but it could've been done better.

The stabbing itself, I would've excluded Alliser, and not make him strike the first blow. Better do have the first blow done by Olly then, and have 5 NW members follow.

That being said: yes, you are also correct. If we followed the books, there would've been very little conversation or action. Sansa doing nothing in the Vale, Tyrion doing nothing (except drinking and looking at a woman bathing naked in the river) on a boat, Cercei f*cking everything and everyone (especially the kettleblack brothers), thinking she could get away with it. Jon moping in his quarters thinking on how he can get the free folk on the correct side of the wall without betraying the NW, Sam on a boat glimpsing at Gilly and seeing Aemon die on a ship.

2 completely new storylines (Dorne and Ironborn) with little or no connection to the main characters (that's why Jaimy and Bronn went to Dorne, and that's why the Ironborn haven't been reintroduced).

As much as I like the books, I also like the show.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Hey TheTowerOfJoy, back off here!!! I'm a book snob as well :ack: :dunno: (just kidding).

Part of me has to agree with Protos, because the build-up was not done properly. First of all, why have the Wildlings go through the wall in stead of sailing to Eastwatch by the sea and offboarding on the safe side of the wall (that way, Stannis has his ships back as well).

Second, why have the Alliser/Jon staredown and open the gates. It is a weird part in the story.... I understand why they did it (it adds to some of the suspense and shows that Alliser is obeying orders), but it could've been done better.

The stabbing itself, I would've excluded Alliser, and not make him strike the first blow. Better do have the first blow done by Olly then, and have 5 NW members follow.

That being said: yes, you are also correct. If we followed the books, there would've been very little conversation or action. Sansa doing nothing in the Vale, Tyrion doing nothing (except drinking and looking at a woman bathing naked in the river) on a boat, Cercei f*cking everything and everyone (especially the kettleblack brothers), thinking she could get away with it. Jon moping in his quarters thinking on how he can get the free folk on the correct side of the wall without betraying the NW, Sam on a boat glimpsing at Gilly and seeing Aemon die on a ship.

2 completely new storylines (Dorne and Ironborn) with little or no connection to the main characters (that's why Jaimy and Bronn went to Dorne, and that's why the Ironborn haven't been reintroduced).

As much as I like the books, I also like the show.

Totally agree with this. I think we have to be sensible about what is possible in ten episodes and the differences between a tv show and a book.

As for the stabbing, possibly there was a bit of a jerk from Thorne letting him in to him stabbing him, but the whole season has been about building up Jons isolation and turning everyone against him. It maybe would have needed one more small scene to make it flow better, but other than that its fine.

Thorne I have no problem doing the stabbing, hes been set up as the ringleader for the opposition and as a general 'baddie' since day 1.

[Lord Eddard]

If Protar and the other book snobs had their way, about 70% of the screen time this season would be spent with characters not talking, staring into the distance with thought bubbles explaining their inner thoughts over their heads, because that's what actually happened throughout the last two books.

I agree. And protar - the thread is about what we LIKED in the show. If you continue to try to derail the topic with your inane negativity I'll report you for trolling. We don't go to the Rant and Rave and interrupt your circle-jerk there either. You have been warned.

I liked:

- speeding up Tyrion's journey and cutting his senseless mutterings (where do whores go), that was just filler in Dance

- speeding up Dany in Meereen - another pedestrian snooze-fest in Dance

- Hardhome

- Sansa in Winterfell instead of having her in the Vale doing nothing.

- showing us the outcome of the battle of Winterfell instead of delaying it for the next book

All my friends who have been reading the books since 1998 agree that the show was the best that could have happened. At least D&D will provide an ending and maybe even force Martin to get his act together and streamline his writing. Another misstep like Dance won't be forgiven.

[protar]

The entire season had be telegraphing it. In fact the telegraphing was over the top at times if you knew it was coming. How many scenes do we have to see of Ollie looking annoyed? The Crows dissatisfaction about the Wildlings being there was brought up A LOT of times, its impossible to miss it, it wasn't subtle.

No it wasn't, I agree. In fact it was ridiculously telegraphed. But that doesn't mean it makes sense. If it had just been Olly losing it and stabbing Jon then that would have made more sense, because he's just a stupid kid who's angry about his dead parents. It wouldn't have been stellar television but it at least would have been a logical progression of events. What actually happened was neither because Thorne's motivations make little sense - either he's willing to let the wildlings through and try to work with them or he isn't. And because Thorne has never liked Jon, and he's a ranger who should be aware of the greater threat beyond the wall, it very much paints the whole situation as "bad guy stabbing our perfect hero." That's so far from what Martin wrote.

[protar]

I agree. And protar - the thread is about what we LIKED in the show. If you continue to try to derail the topic with your inane negativity I'll report you for trolling. We don't go to the Rant and Rave and interrupt your circle-jerk there either. You have been warned.

If there was a disclaimer that this was a pure positivity thread like the positive nitpicking I wouldn't have posted.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

No it wasn't, I agree. In fact it was ridiculously telegraphed. But that doesn't mean it makes sense. If it had just been Olly losing it and stabbing Jon then that would have made more sense, because he's just a stupid kid who's angry about his dead parents. It wouldn't have been stellar television but it at least would have been a logical progression of events. What actually happened was neither because Thorne's motivations make little sense - either he's willing to let the wildlings through and try to work with them or he isn't. And because Thorne has never liked Jon, and he's a ranger who should be aware of the greater threat beyond the wall, it very much paints the whole situation as "bad guy stabbing our perfect hero." That's so far from what Martin wrote.

So Thorne would let a bunch of Crows die outside the wall because he doesn't want to let the Wildings through. He then opens himself up to a 'caesar' situation himself for killing men of the nights watch. Basically all he could do in that moment was protest, by not immediately letting him in. That stare is basically saying 'i'm letting you in but this isn't the last you will hear of it'

[Lord Eddard]

If there was a disclaimer that this was a pure positivity thread like the positive nitpicking I wouldn't have posted.

As someone who clearly prides herself on her power of deduction regarding everything that is "unlogical" in the show you should be able to read and understand a thread topic. My last response to you here.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

One of my favourite scenes this season has been Tyrion meeting Dany. Tyrion is particular was able to cut to the chase and sum up the entire plot of the show in some of his dialogue. His ability to demonstrate the futility of the struggle for the iron throne really summed up just how smart he really is.

Plus the back and forth between him and Dany and him and Jorah was a joy to behold.

[Lord Eddard]

So Thorne would let a bunch of Crows die outside the wall because he doesn't want to let the Wildings through. He then opens himself up to a 'caesar' situation himself for killing men of the nights watch. Basically all he could do in that moment was protest, by not immediately letting him in. That stare is basically saying 'i'm letting you in but this isn't the last you will hear of it'

I totally agree. In addition, Jon has still loyal men in the Night's Watch (who voted him Lord Commander) who would immediately attack Thorne if he decided to openly rebel against Jon. It's completely straight and logical and only people too dense or too willfully stubborn (because everything D&D do must be bad) try to argue against it.

Btw, don't feed the troll protar here, let's stay on the topic what we liked.

[protar]

As someone who clearly prides herself on her power of deduction regarding everything that is "unlogical" in the show you should be able to read and understand a thread topic. My last response to you here.

I know what the OP said, but that's not the same as the "Please don't say anything bad/positive" disclaimers that the rant and rave, and positive nitpicking threads had. Those are our respective echo chambers, the other threads are fair game for debate so far as I'm concerned. If I'd known this was supposed to be some continuation of that I would have steered well clear.

And finally, you might want to tone down the pomposity a notch or five. "My last response to you here." oh brother.

ETA: P.S If you're going to tell me I can't post my opinions in a thread, and tell me "i'm afraid dear sir that this will be my last reply to you in this particular discourse ah yes *puffs on pipe* " don't continue to discuss my posts with other posters and call me a troll. Have you said your last word or not? Now you're derailing the thread.

[Lord Eddard]

Another thing I liked better than in the books:

- Varys and Tyrion together in Meereen ruling the city. The imp has to be in a position of power to be interesting - not riding pigs and whining with Penny.

[Channel4s-JonSnow]

Another thing I liked more was Arya killing Trant rather than Dareon (the bard nights watch guy). In the book that death is rather random and unmotivated. Trants death shows that Arya is still not 'nobody' but its filled with her lust for revenge.

[RGBeyondAsshai]

I'm glad that Aegon was cut, that Penny and the ship ride was cut. I guess cutting all the slavers warring with Dany made Mereen less busy...

Karsi the Wildling and a few of the visual effects made me really like Hardhome.

Oh and I'm good with Selyse being dead and Jaqen representing FM

That's all I think