Heresy 172

[Black Crow]

My mistake, he only mentions that he dreamed of flying. No mention of the 3EC.

It's chapter 29.

Just the dialogue he uses is very evocative of the 3EC like, "Perhaps we can fly. All of us. How will we ever know unless we leap from some tall tower?" and "Do you dare to fly? Unless you take the leap, you'll never know."

It's been a while since I last read that chapter, so in my mind I guess I mixed up his talking like the 3EC to him being visited by the 3EC.

Still, given that his name is Crow's Eye and said eye is supposed to have magical powers, it's probably not out of the realm of possibility that he was visited by the 3EC.

Oh I agree. While the Three-eyed Crow is not specifically referred to I think the intent is very plain As I've said before I suspect that just as men use crows to carry messages over long distances so the old gods use crows or at least appear as crows when entering mens' dreams.

We might therefore question whether Euron failed to fly or whether he did, and the Crows Eye is to be taken literally.

[Reposado]

It didn't have to be the legs. The point I'm making is that given the way dreams are being manipulated by the crows, Bran was targeted long before he fell and that had Jaime Lannister not pushed Bran from the tower the crows would have found another way to render him vulnerable.

perhaps not. that might not be necessary. we don't know that bloodraven was vulnerable before he presumably heard the call. and we don't know that euron was if we agree with the above post. and really all his fall did was make it harder for him to physically get there. yes it left him in a coma for a while, which maybe made the initial contact easier, but we don't know that it was needed. i think the fall opened up a weakness to exploit but they would have punched through eventually

but anyways. we think it is likely that bran's dreams come from the the old gods/hivemind/children/whatever it is

but what about jojen's. they aren't like the crow dreams at all. they're not persuasive. and they are prophetic.

bran's dreams are about things as they are, even if they are far away. jojen's dreams are about things that are going to happen and they are more like mel's.(in the sense that the recipient does not always grasp the symbolism but they do in fact happen fairly precisely) so the source is likely not the old gods.

proposed source: bran. we know that he can contact the past through the network. maybe future bran is sending jojen dreams to steer the path to where he needs to get to.

i think it is likely that the old gods/tree network/hivemind is not here for the benefit of man but i also don't think that bran has figured this strongly into the plot to in order to be swallowed by the evil. i think if the network is evil, that bran will do things with it that the network did not think was possible and that he will overcome it and find a way to turn it against itself. because he isn't a villain, and he has to do something important.

the old gods see him as the bloodraven's replacement, but they have no idea what they have allowed to access the system.

[Black Crow]

As to Jojen, perhaps its a language thing. Messages come to him in his dreams but because he's not a greenseer he can't translate them clearly

[Reposado]

As to Jojen, perhaps its a language thing. Messages come to him in his dreams but because he's not a greenseer he can't translate them clearly

but they do tell the future, where bran's do not

[Black Crow]

Up to a point, perhaps its just a matter of radio clutter, picking things up which aren't intended for him, while Bran's messages are much more focussed.

[Reposado]

it's possible, but bran's are so distinctly different from other dreams in the series. there is an entity in them that speaks specifically to him.

jojen just sees future events happening. like daeron, mel, mother mole, etc

[Sly Wren]

Fair enough, joy's not just negativity then.

Geez. You made me go get a pen and paper and everything... ;)

Looks like it got pulled in about ten times for things that didn't count. i.e. dedications, a couple errant Greyjoys, etc.

Used as a name 16 times

TOJ 4 times

Actual emotion of joy 34 times

Signifying a loss of joy 23 times

Sarcasm by Tyrion 7 times (He does use the word more than this. This is just his sarcastic use.)

I know this is going back a bit, but this popped into my head (which means it's probably already occurred to all of you)--we don't know when let alone where or from whom Ned heard that Rhaegar referred to the tower as the tower of joy, right? So, it's at least possible that it was an idea Ned heard after all were dead, yes?

Robert clearly assumes Rhaegar raped Lyanna. Am assuming more than a few people might have thought Lyanna and Rhaegar ran off as lovers (Viserys certainly did, though using him as an example has clear perils). Just thinking--if people started conflating the story, connecting the deaths of the knights with Rhaegar and Lyanna--we may be hearing a name and tale that Rhaegar never started. Others put it together after the fact. And then readers run with it.

[Black Crow]

True, but as I say that seems to be the difference between a dreamer and a seer. Jojen is picking things up, but either doesn't understand or can't properly articulate them. Its like a badly tuned radio. He's picking up messages intended for him to bring or assist in the bringing of Bran to the cave, but mixed in with that are other visions which he doesn't understand perhaps because they are not intended for him.

[Lord Ravenstark]

perhaps not. that might not be necessary. we don't know that bloodraven was vulnerable before he presumably heard the call. and we don't know that euron was if we agree with the above post. and really all his fall did was make it harder for him to physically get there. yes it left him in a coma for a while, which maybe made the initial contact easier, but we don't know that it was needed. i think the fall opened up a weakness to exploit but they would have punched through eventually

but anyways. we think it is likely that bran's dreams come from the the old gods/hivemind/children/whatever it is

but what about jojen's. they aren't like the crow dreams at all. they're not persuasive. and they are prophetic.

bran's dreams are about things as they are, even if they are far away. jojen's dreams are about things that are going to happen and they are more like mel's.(in the sense that the recipient does not always grasp the symbolism but they do in fact happen fairly precisely) so the source is likely not the old gods.

proposed source: bran. we know that he can contact the past through the network. maybe future bran is sending jojen dreams to steer the path to where he needs to get to.

i think it is likely that the old gods/tree network/hivemind is not here for the benefit of man but i also don't think that bran has figured this strongly into the plot to in order to be swallowed by the evil. i think if the network is evil, that bran will do things with it that the network did not think was possible and that he will overcome it and find a way to turn it against itself. because he isn't a villain, and he has to do something important.

the old gods see him as the bloodraven's replacement, but they have no idea what they have allowed to access the system.

Interestingly, Bloodraven said Bran would have the greensight. And, correct me if I am wrong, but I am sure he has dreamed of things to come. And all of them in very precise, not symbolic, ways.

• He saw his mother's travel to King's Landing, in a cabin. This one is very interesting. While it is possible to claim it was a vision of what was happening in that exact moment, due to timeline issues when changing the POVs, it is still very meaningful. He is literally seeing something, not symbolically, that is happening/has happened/will happen far from any tree. It would expand his reach to beyond the weirnet, but to literal god of woods, stones and streams.

He sees his father and sisters, the Clegane brothers and Oberyn. He see the characters he doesn't know as shadows, which may be explained as him not mastering his powers. Curiously, when he looked at Gregor, he saw only black blood. This one is very symbolic, indeed, but it is clear it is a vision of the future, and even if not a vision of the future proper still will have a lot of meaning in a not-so-near future.

There is also the famous vision of the Wall and Jon dead (or dying). I don't really need to say anything more about this one.

It should be noted that Bran's absence of greendreams can be easily explained by the fact Bran doesn't dream anymore, by his will or by need. When he sleeps, he slips to the skin of either Summer or Hodor. Anyway, Bran's visions are very precise (except with the Clegane brothers and Oberyn, which he never saw before) either of the future or the present, with or without trees. IIRC, when he sees Arya he also feels her feelings and knows she hold secrets, which may be simply he relating what he sees or he actually feeling what she feels, empathically.

We know so little about Bran and Bloodraven. They are so detached from mundane politics that makes them pure heresy fuel.

[Black Crow]

I know this is going back a bit, but this popped into my head (which means it's probably already occurred to all of you)--we don't know when let alone where or from whom Ned heard that Rhaegar referred to the tower as the tower of joy, right? So, it's at least possible that it was an idea Ned heard after all were dead, yes?

Its always worth remembering that this passage is the sole reference in the entire canon to "the tower of joy" [all lower case]:

It would have to be his grandfather, for Jory's father was buried far to the south. Martyn Cassel had perished with the rest. Ned had pulled the tower down afterward, and used its bloody stones to build eight cairns upon the ridge. It was said that Rhaegar had named that place the tower of joy, but for Ned it was a bitter memory. They had been seven against three, yet only two lived to ride away; Eddard Stark himself and the little crannogman, Howland Reed.

What we're never told is where that "It was said..." came from. It certainly doesn't sound as if it was said by anyone Lord Eddard knew.

[Reposado]

Interestingly, Bloodraven said Bran would have the greensight. And, correct me if I am wrong, but I am sure he has dreamed of things to come. And all of them in very precise, not symbolic, ways.

• He saw his mother's travel to King's Landing, in a cabin. This one is very interesting. While it is possible to claim it was a vision of what was happening in that exact moment, due to timeline issues when changing the POVs, it is still very meaningful. He is literally seeing something, not symbolically, that is happening/has happened/will happen far from any tree. It would expand his reach to beyond the weirnet, but to literal god of woods, stones and streams.

He sees his father and sisters, the Clegane brothers and Oberyn. He see the characters he doesn't know as shadows, which may be explained as him not mastering his powers. Curiously, when he looked at Gregor, he saw only black blood. This one is very symbolic, indeed, but it is clear it is a vision of the future, and even if not a vision of the future proper still will have a lot of meaning in a not-so-near future.

There is also the famous vision of the Wall and Jon dead (or dying). I don't really need to say anything more about this one.

It should be noted that Bran's absence of greendreams can be easily explained by the fact Bran doesn't dream anymore, by his will or by need. When he sleeps, he slips to the skin of either Summer or Hodor. Anyway, Bran's visions are very precise (except with the Clegane brothers and Oberyn, which he never saw before) either of the future or the present, with or without trees. IIRC, when he sees Arya he also feels her feelings and knows she hold secrets, which may be simply he relating what he sees or he actually feeling what she feels, empathically.

We know so little about Bran and Bloodraven. They are so detached from mundane politics that makes them pure heresy fuel.

i do think those are all in the present. cat being on a ship isn't momentous. it's just where she is now. ned is pleading to robert, somewhat more significant but also what he's doing now. sansa crying, etc. it is all very imminent.

and i think you can take the three shadows that he sees as Sandor, Cersei and Illyn. "there were shadows all around them" in this case them is ned, sansa and arya who he just saw.

those three are the ones currently threatening ned and sansa and more directly lady.

he sees very far in that dream, but no necessarily forward in time

[Lord Ravenstark]

i do think those are all in the present. cat being on a ship isn't momentous. it's just where she is now. ned is pleading to robert, somewhat more significant but also what he's doing now. sansa crying, etc. it is all very imminent.

and i think you can take the three shadows that he sees as Sandor, Cersei and Illyn. "there were shadows all around them" in this case them is ned, sansa and arya who he just saw.

those three are the ones currently threatening ned and sansa and more directly lady.

he sees very far in that dream, but no necessarily forward in time

"He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound¹. Another was armoured like the sun, golden and beautiful². Over them both loomed a giant in armour made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood³."

1 Shadow with a face of a hound, it is clearly Sandor.

2 Armoured like the sun, is Oberyn, although some argue it may be also the Kingslayer. To be honest, for me it is very doubtful. Both Gregor and Sandor are clearly represented by their nicknames, but there is no one we know of that is known as sun, other than Martells. Even then, Oberyn should have been a viper.

3 Giant with armor of stone, the Mountain it is clear.

For I while I thought that the more in the future you looked at, more distorted things seemed to be. Yet Melisandre, when looking at Bran and Bloodraven, sees skulls and eyes and all the crazy stuff.

The red priestess closed her eyes and said a prayer, then opened them once more to face the hearthfire. One more time. She had to be certain. Many a priest and priestess before her had been brought down by false visions, by seeing what they wished to see instead of what the Lord of Light had sent. Stannis was marching south into peril, the king who carried the fate of the world upon his shoulders, Azor Ahai reborn. Surely R'hllor would vouchsafe her a glimpse of what awaited him. Show me Stannis, Lord, she prayed. Show me your king, your instrument.

Visions danced before her, gold and scarlet, flickering, forming and melting and dissolving into one another, shapes strange and terrifying and seductive. She saw the eyeless faces again, staring out at her from sockets weeping blood. Then the towers by the sea, crumbling as the dark tide came sweeping over them, rising from the depths. Shadows in the shape of skulls, skulls that turned to mist, bodies locked together in lust, writhing and rolling and clawing. Through curtains of fire great winged shadows wheeled against a hard blue sky.

The girl. I must find the girl again, the grey girl on the dying horse. Jon Snow would expect that of her, and soon. It would not be enough to say the girl was fleeing. He would want more, he would want the when and where, and she did not have that for him. She had seen the girl only once. A girl as grey as ash, and even as I watched she crumbled and blew away. A face took shape within the hearth. Stannis? she thought, for just a moment ... but no, these were not his features. A wooden face, corpse white. Was this the enemy? A thousand red eyes floated in the rising flames. He sees me. Beside him, a boy with a wolf's face threw back his head and howled.

The red priestess shuddered. Blood trickled down her thigh, black and smoking. The fire was inside her, an agony, an ecstasy, filling her, searing her, transforming her. Shimmers of heat traced patterns on her skin, insistent as a lover's hand. Strange voices called to her from days long past.

"Melony," she heard a woman cry. A man's voice called, "Lot Seven."

She was weeping, and her tears were flame. And still she drank it in. Snowflakes swirled from a dark sky and ashes rose to meet them, the grey and the white whirling around each other as flaming arrows arced above a wooden wall and dead things shambled silent through the cold, beneath a great grey cliff where fires burned inside a hundred caves. Then the wind rose and the white mist came sweeping in, impossibly cold, and one by one the fires went out. Afterward only the skulls remained. Death, thought Melisandre. The skulls are death. The flames crackled softly, and in their crackling she heard the whispered name Jon Snow. His long face floated before her, limned in tongues of red and orange, appearing and disappearing again, a shadow half-seen behind a fluttering curtain. Now he was a man, now a wolf, now a man again. But the skulls were here as well, the skulls were all around him. Melisandre had seen his danger before, had tried to warn the boy of it. Enemies all around him, daggers in the dark. He would not listen. Unbelievers never listened until it was too late.

"What do you see, my lady?" the boy asked, softly.

Skulls. A thousand skulls, and the bastard boy again. Jon Snow. Whenever she was asked what she saw within her fires, Melisandre would answer, "Much and more," but seeing was never as simple as those words suggested. It was an art, and like all arts it demanded mastery, discipline, study. Pain. That too. R'hllor spoke to his chosen ones through blessed fire, in a language of ash and cinder and twisting flame that only a god could truly grasp. Melisandre had practiced her art for years beyond count, and she had paid the price. There was no one, even in her order, who had her skill at seeing the secrets half-revealed and half-concealed within the sacred flames. Yet now she could not even seem to find her king. I pray for a glimpse of Azor Ahai, and R' hllor shows me only Snow.

I will relevate the fact she sees BR and Bran as wooden corpse and wolfboy, because as the same happens to the Ghost of H Hill, Bran and other dreamers, when you do not know the person you look at, you can't see its full features. Also, BR seems to be jamming her visions so it may explains why she can't see clearly.

Again, it hould be noted that Melisandre is a terrible seer. She asks to see her king, she dismiss the skulls, both Bran and BR (although both princes Bran arguably being king after Robb's death) and jump to conclusion she only saw Jon.

[Reposado]

"He saw his father pleading with the king, his face etched with grief. He saw Sansa crying herself to sleep at night, and he saw Arya watching in silence and holding her secrets hard in her heart. There were shadows all around them. One shadow was as dark as ash, with the terrible face of a hound¹. Another was armoured like the sun, golden and beautiful². Over them both loomed a giant in armour made of stone, but when he opened his visor, there was nothing inside but darkness and thick black blood³."

1 Shadow with a face of a hound, it is clearly Sandor.

2 Armoured like the sun, is Oberyn, although some argue it may be also the Kingslayer. To be honest, for me it is very doubtful. Both Gregor and Sandor are clearly represented by their nicknames, but there is no one we know of that is known as sun, other than Martells. Even then, Oberyn should have been a viper.

3 Giant with armor of stone, the Mountain it is clear.

it could be the mountain. but its not clear.

the second....i don't see how it could be oberyn, in what way is hovering over ned sansa and arya? now or in the future? it could be jaime but i think cersei fits better.

[TheMiddleHero]

I obviously can't speak for BC, but Bloodraven as Wodan--lots of parallels there. But the wood wife--this part of the story seems Night's King-ish to me, with his queen. So, Val and Jon--can see the parallel, maybe. Need to see what happens post-stabbing. . . .

Hmm, my fault in not emphasizing my point properly.

We had all the talk about Kurtz and the HoD, and Coldhands possibly being the Harlequin from HoD.

So it just struck me that in some areas the "Wild Hunt" is called the "Harlequin's Hunt." Which could add another layer to ColdHands, if both relations end up true.

ETA: Also that at one point the "Wild Hunt" was more of a "solemn march of the gods," until it it became increasingly demonized by the Christian faith, and that there may be a similar case with the Others and the Faith of the Seven.

There were also a few mentions of the Hunt moving "unseen through the air, perceptible in cloudy shapes." Almost like a "white shadow."

Sorry if I am sidetracking the current convo, got intrigued when the Wild Hunt was mentioned.

[Sly Wren]

Hmm, my fault in not emphasizing my point properly.

We had all the talk about Kurtz and the HoD, and Coldhands possibly being the Harlequin from HoD.

So it just struck me that in some areas the "Wild Hunt" is called the "Harlequin's Hunt." Which could add another layer to ColdHands, if both relations end up true.

ETA: Also that at one point the "Wild Hunt" was more of a "solemn march of the gods," until it it became increasingly demonized by the Christian faith, and that there may be a similar case with the Others and the Faith of the Seven.

There were also a few mentions of the Hunt moving "unseen through the air, perceptible in cloudy shapes." Almost like a "white shadow."

Sorry if I am sidetracking the current convo, got intrigued when the Wild Hunt was mentioned.

Not your fault--I've been going on the forums when I can't sleep--not conducive to cogent reading comprehension.

Agreed on the "solemn march"--seems to fit the grace of the Others (as Sam describes) and even the slowness of the wights. But the Faith makes little mention of the Others, even to demonize them--or are you saying that they've just forgotten them?

Agree on the white shadow--one of the reasons I listen to the crazy, mind-warped women in Craster's keep--they all may be severely damaged, but the white shadows and cold winds seem confirmed by other sources. . .

On the Harlequin--I wondered about that, too, when I read your earlier post. If Coldhands does turn out to be a devotee like the Russian--but I think the parallels there are harder to draw (at least for me in my present state). And though Coldhands does seem to act of his own volition vs. a mindless wight, he doesn't seem to be running anything. When I think Wild Hunt, I always go first to Herne the Hunter and his antlers and wild face and dogs--not yet a tie to Coldhands on any of that I can see. . . Or were you going somewhere else?

[Black Crow]

Hmm, my fault in not emphasizing my point properly.

We had all the talk about Kurtz and the HoD, and Coldhands possibly being the Harlequin from HoD.

So it just struck me that in some areas the "Wild Hunt" is called the "Harlequin's Hunt." Which could add another layer to ColdHands, if both relations end up true.

ETA: Also that at one point the "Wild Hunt" was more of a "solemn march of the gods," until it it became increasingly demonized by the Christian faith, and that there may be a similar case with the Others and the Faith of the Seven.

There were also a few mentions of the Hunt moving "unseen through the air, perceptible in cloudy shapes." Almost like a "white shadow."

Sorry if I am sidetracking the current convo, got intrigued when the Wild Hunt was mentioned.

These are all good points which we've discussed before here on heresy [and can again] so I don't think you're reaching with any of it. The parallels which you speak of are certainly there and ultimately, in seeing them as Craster's sons, its always worth remembering that they are usually portrayed as damned.

[WhitewolfStark]

i do think those are all in the present. cat being on a ship isn't momentous. it's just where she is now. ned is pleading to robert, somewhat more significant but also what he's doing now. sansa crying, etc. it is all very imminent.

and i think you can take the three shadows that he sees as Sandor, Cersei and Illyn. "there were shadows all around them" in this case them is ned, sansa and arya who he just saw.

those three are the ones currently threatening ned and sansa and more directly lady.

he sees very far in that dream, but no necessarily forward in time

Except Gregor was not at Castle Darry. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE reads that line as it being the Mountain, but when everyone else in that dang dream is "where they are" physically, and there are literary ties back to this dream later on in each of their chapters, I think looking for characters who aren't where they are physically is likely folly and over eagerness on fans' parts.

The line about Jon "forgetting what it was to feel warm" was parroted back to us in Jon's following chapter from the dream by Jon himself. Bran sees a storm that Catelyn and Ser Rodrik are about to sail into that they don't see, and while there's some symbolic play there with Varys and Littlefinger, there's also mention of an actual storm that took them by surprise that they sailed through when we get back to Catelyn's POV--it's narratively important because Ser Rodrik got sick during the storm, and hasn't quite recovered since then, which is why he's less than effective as Catelyn's bodyguard in King's Landing where the "symbolic" storm that is taking them by surprise is occurring. So I read that dream as a symbolic representation of what's occurring in the book at that moment and a guide or at least a frame of mind to read the subsequent chapters with, that I think fans put too much meaning into. The only question I have about that chapter was if Martin was trying to get us to view events in surrounding chapters in a specific way via that dream, when the truth was harder to discern than what that dream presented.

The three shadows are rather simple IMO, just look who's at Darry and somehow a threat to the Starks (at that moment):

The Hound

Jaime Lannister (recall that Jaime always appears in Bran's dreams with this description), or alternatively Joffrey himself, who we're told looks like a young Jaime--thus him being described much as Jaime might, might not be so out of place and an early hint to Joffrey's true parentage, and the more I think on it Joffrey makes more sense than Jaime when thinking of what's going on at Darry

Ser Ilyn Payne--who frightens Sansa so that she falls back into the Hound, and looms above her and gives her a stare moment pulled right out of a horror film as he slowly turns his head to stare Sansa down. Joffrey chides Sandor who he thinks frightened Sansa, but in that moment she's surrounded by all three. Later on in Darry Castle the three return as threats to Lady and thus symbolically just how far Ned's authority extends.

As for black blood and the like of that third shadow, I've always taken that to be a symbolic representation of his soul--it's outright stated he lives for nothing but killing, and he had his tongue chopped out, which the black blood might be a reference for. And the fact that he's looming over the Starks at that moment is he's a presence which threatens Lady's survival, and if there's any foretelling, it's the fact that he's got such a "black soul" that when asked to take Ned's head off by Joffrey later in the book, he does it without question and likely gleefully. As for being called a giant, he looms over more than one Stark's fate and I take it as a symbolic representation of how much of a menace he is, which Sansa and Lady recognize immediately on sight, while Ser Barristan and Renly patronize her slightly with a "he's a bit unnerving, but you have nothing to fear from Ser Ilyn..." dialogue. :rolleyes:

The crow, recall doesn't want Bran to look at all that though, while he's being given a look in into what is most likely how the crows/"old gods" view the Known World, they're highlighting certain things over others, while Bran wants to look at the things they're dismissing.

[Black Crow]

And though Coldhands does seem to act of his own volition vs. a mindless wight, he doesn't seem to be running anything. When I think Wild Hunt, I always go first to Herne the Hunter and his antlers and wild face and dogs--not yet a tie to Coldhands on any of that I can see. . . Or were you going somewhere else?

There its worth bearing in mind a couple of other points, first; although Coldhands isn't wearing a shaman hood with antlers, he is riding an elk and Bran immediately asks whether he is one of the antler-wearing Green Men. He may or may not be, but they are certainly associated with the three-fingered tree-huggers, secondly; like Herne, Coldhands appears to be damned to wander forever, not unlike the Russian.

[TheMiddleHero]

Not your fault--I've been going on the forums when I can't sleep--not conducive to cogent reading comprehension.

Agreed on the "solemn march"--seems to fit the grace of the Others (as Sam describes) and even the slowness of the wights. But the Faith makes little mention of the Others, even to demonize them--or are you saying that they've just forgotten them?

Agree on the white shadow--one of the reasons I listen to the crazy, mind-warped women in Craster's keep--they all may be severely damaged, but the white shadows and cold winds seem confirmed by other sources. . .

On the Harlequin--I wondered about that, too, when I read your earlier post. If Coldhands does turn out to be a devotee like the Russian--but I think the parallels there are harder to draw (at least for me in my present state). And though Coldhands does seem to act of his own volition vs. a mindless wight, he doesn't seem to be running anything. When I think Wild Hunt, I always go first to Herne the Hunter and his antlers and wild face and dogs--not yet a tie to Coldhands on any of that I can see. . . Or were you going somewhere else?

No, you pretty much have my drift, and Coldhands may have nothing to do with it. Caught my curiosity more after all the HoD talk.

As far as the Faith goes, I'm not sure they would outright state that they demonize them. More of a progression of dismissiveness, till eventually they are just old wives tales, or even progressed into part of the religion such as the four horseman of the apocalypse. Plus you can even almost see that the farther south you go, the taller the tales get about what is above the Wall. Haven't seen any snarks or grumpkins yet.

I can see you having your own particular of the WH in your mind, but then again it was a common theme throughout Europe, with many deviations depending on the region (ignorant american here though,) with many different leaders from Wodon (or Odin if you like,) King Herla, Herne and many more.

[Black Crow]

As far as the Faith goes, I'm not sure they would outright state that they demonize them. More of a progression of dismissiveness, till eventually they are just old wives tales, or even progressed into part of the religion such as the four horseman of the apocalypse. Plus you can even almost see that the farther south you go, the taller the tales get about what is above the Wall. Haven't seen any snarks or grumpkins yet.

Once again its worth bearing in mind two points here; first the Faith came along after the Long Night with no apparent history of being opposed to the white walkers, although they did, obviously, take violently against the children of the forest. In both cases however they are regarded as long dead and gone rather than as an active threat in the way that Mel for example sees the Great Other. And then there's the geography; what goes on beyond the Wall is a long way off, although conversely they do appear to go along with everybody else in thinking that the Wall must be manned - even if nobody really expects anything to happen.