Heresy 172

[TheMiddleHero]

Once again its worth bearing in mind two points here; first the Faith came along after the Long Night with no apparent history of being opposed to the white walkers, although they did, obviously, take violently against the children of the forest. In both cases however they are regarded as long dead and gone rather than as an active threat in the way that Mel for example sees the Great Other. And then there's the geography; what goes on beyond the Wall is a long way off, although conversely they do appear to go along with everybody else in thinking that the Wall must be manned - even if nobody really expects anything to happen.

:agree:, though they just empty the dungeons to augment the forces.

[Balerion06]

Except Gregor was not at Castle Darry. Everyone, and I mean EVERYONE reads that line as it being the Mountain, but when everyone else in that dang dream is "where they are" physically, and there are literary ties back to this dream later on in each of their chapters, I think looking for characters who aren't where they are physically is likely folly and over eagerness on fans' parts.

The line about Jon "forgetting what it was to feel warm" was parroted back to us in Jon's following chapter from the dream by Jon himself. Bran sees a storm that Catelyn and Ser Rodrik are about to sail into that they don't see, and while there's some symbolic play there with Varys and Littlefinger, there's also mention of an actual storm that took them by surprise that they sailed through when we get back to Catelyn's POV--it's narratively important because Ser Rodrik got sick during the storm, and hasn't quite recovered since then, which is why he's less than effective as Catelyn's bodyguard in King's Landing where the "symbolic" storm that is taking them by surprise is occurring. So I read that dream as a symbolic representation of what's occurring in the book at that moment and a guide or at least a frame of mind to read the subsequent chapters with, that I think fans put too much meaning into. The only question I have about that chapter was if Martin was trying to get us to view events in surrounding chapters in a specific way via that dream, when the truth was harder to discern than what that dream presented.

The three shadows are rather simple IMO, just look who's at Darry and somehow a threat to the Starks (at that moment):

The Hound

Jaime Lannister (recall that Jaime always appears in Bran's dreams with this description), or alternatively Joffrey himself, who we're told looks like a young Jaime--thus him being described much as Jaime might, might not be so out of place and an early hint to Joffrey's true parentage, and the more I think on it Joffrey makes more sense than Jaime when thinking of what's going on at Darry

Ser Ilyn Payne--who frightens Sansa so that she falls back into the Hound, and looms above her and gives her a stare moment pulled right out of a horror film as he slowly turns his head to stare Sansa down. Joffrey chides Sandor who he thinks frightened Sansa, but in that moment she's surrounded by all three. Later on in Darry Castle the three return as threats to Lady and thus symbolically just how far Ned's authority extends.

As for black blood and the like of that third shadow, I've always taken that to be a symbolic representation of his soul--it's outright stated he lives for nothing but killing, and he had his tongue chopped out, which the black blood might be a reference for. And the fact that he's looming over the Starks at that moment is he's a presence which threatens Lady's survival, and if there's any foretelling, it's the fact that he's got such a "black soul" that when asked to take Ned's head off by Joffrey later in the book, he does it without question and likely gleefully. As for being called a giant, he looms over more than one Stark's fate and I take it as a symbolic representation of how much of a menace he is, which Sansa and Lady recognize immediately on sight, while Ser Barristan and Renly patronize her slightly with a "he's a bit unnerving, but you have nothing to fear from Ser Ilyn..." dialogue. :rolleyes:

The crow, recall doesn't want Bran to look at all that though, while he's being given a look in into what is most likely how the crows/"old gods" view the Known World, they're highlighting certain things over others, while Bran wants to look at the things they're dismissing.

Wouldn't Robert make more sense as the giant and a direct threat to Lady?

The black blood pouring out of him could also just be symbolic of his decadence and decline.

[WhitewolfStark]

Wouldn't Robert make more sense as the giant and a direct threat to Lady?

The black blood pouring out of him could also just be symbolic of his decadence and decline.

It would be worth considering. Another thing to examine might be when stone appears in green dreams. We see a giant with stone armor here, in a later dream there's stone lions in one of Bran's dreams, and the last use of stone in the dreams is the stone chains Jojen dreams of that are holding down the winged wolf.

It would be interesting to contemplate the meaning of stone in green dreams, it's clearly that it's meant to be something negative given the negative associations these three stone things all have. Perhaps Stone is meant to say in the language "clearly bad thing" or is meant to dehumanize or dismiss the elements attached to that symbol as "wrong" in some manner.

That's at least speculation, Stone = bad (or at least that's what the characters seem to be meant to interpret in that manner) but any other subtlties or nuances beyond that we have too little information to be sure.

That would be an interesting essay for someone to take up, comparing and contrasting all the green dreams and other dreams in this series and seeing if there is a common language to them that is being employed in order to assist in the manipulation of the characters.

Or perhaps that's just folly, considering the anti-Jung perspective.

[wolfmaid7]

Wanted to talk meta here for a second about how in the aftermath of Freud and Jung there was a giant upwelling support of the "collective unconscious" and "discovering" and "mapping it", while in the aftermath of the "Consciousness Revolution" (a term used by Generational theorists to apply to the 1960s that I rather like) there's been a whole bunch of people essentially writing stories about how any kind of "collective consciousness" whether it be unconscious or conscious is "different and threatening" rather than "human and liberating".

If anything it feels like a society-wide revolt against Jung, and Martin is definitely part of the legacy of that "Consciousness Revolution", so to speak. ;)

Just was mulling this over today at work, thought you guys might get a kick out of it.

Ah we have talked about this considerably in our "Shadows" thread and in terms of a "collective conciousness" a huge fixture in GRRM's other works inclusing this one there is that sense of how one voice per se will interact with the other. We've considered the state of the Old gods/powers when it has come to Bran but more importantly BR.Is his voice a shadow,is it him or is he a husk whereby the collective speaks? For me when it comes down to it,its skinchanging melding of spirits we may not essetially be dealing with BR,he of himself might be lost or almost gone.So where does that leave Bran who has gone through a kind of sacred marriage to the weirnet.The internal struggle an conflict may come into play here if there's a possibility that he may join the collective or usurp it somehow.And i think he can because that is what i think BR did in a way.

Considering that we learned that Val's Eyes have changed color, to blue, in the last book; have you ever considered that there might be more than one group of blue-eyed figures running around in the North?

If Val & her Order are working with the Weirwoods/Old Gods & we know from early in AGOTs that the Old Gods are in charge of the winds, it seems very possible that the Old Gods could be behind "White Cold" as Gilly describes it...

Do you think that it is possible that Gilly mistook the cold temperature & the blue eyes of Val & her companions for being Others? I think it is very possible, after all Craster has been insisting that they sacrifice to the Others since Gilly was old enough to remember...

--

Nothing is as it first seems in ASOIAF... & Craster is not associated with the Others in any way...

If i may interject i think its possible.I mean Gilly hasn't got anything but a base to work with .The White cold is the mist that rolls in and typically it has heavy wight activity with it.But seeing as i put a greenseer behind the wights its possible if Val and a posse is working with them they could be un harmed.

Seeing how blood sacrifices were essentially stated as being that which stirred the gods,its possible that all Craster's babes are esssentially "plant food" hahaha.Can't believe i said that. I read over the Val eye color change and i think your right on that not being a mistake.

Well, I don't think Bran losing his legs would be necessary to make him go North. It was just a good (for Bloodraven) coincidence. Or, as I like to see, it was the start of a chain of events that would led Westeros to chaos, making it vulnerable. Bloodraven just knew how to use the situation, you don't live over five fourths of century without learning anything.

I am under the impression that Bloodraven would find a way to make Bran go North, even without him losing his legs. And I am pretty sure Brandon knew he would not get his legs back, he is no fool, he goes to Bloodraven for two reasons: knowledge, which is more palpable as he surely has a lot of it - including a near limitless source -, and, of course, the ability to "fly".

Although... I doubt BR lacks the power to give Bran's his legs back, it just happens that he needs Bran depedent on him. Maybe Bloodraven actually needs Bran for something yet unknown. Freedom it is not, as I am sure he could have skinchanged into any living (and mayhaps dead) creature, including wildlings and what not. Deep in myself, I know Bloodraven seeks power. Not political or economic power, it is not the amount of men with arms or gold in your vaults he cares, but the actual one. So far, he is the only one character confirmed to be a prince of both Ice and Fire. Who knows what he wants with the little wolf boy.

As for BR not being the mutant crow, while I am not against or supporting it, it is clear the the three eyed crow has three eyes, and the Targaryen-Blackwood crow has only one.

I am of the mind that the 3ec is definitely not BR and he did not intend Bran to leave WF.I think him leaving was all on the weirwoods trees/BR. I honestly, believe Bran though his blood makes him a Greenseer was not meant to replace BR. I said upthread i think the collective can be usurped and i think this is what BR did to get Bran.I said this a few times before that i think Rickon was to be Jon's counter and it is because of Bran's always wanting to 'fly to high' is the reason BR wanted him.Something the Crow in his coma dream prohibited in the coma dreams.

Interesting--definitely interesting in relation to the potential hive mind of the weirnet. And the idea that the Children's ways are not good for humans.

Seems to apply a bit to the humans per se, as well. IE: the Stark kids have to figure out how they fit into their Starkness, not just follow set patterns. Throw in the fact that Martin writes this as individual POV's, thus stressing differences in perception of reality (and everything else)--yeah.

I could see this--though it may have interesting implications for the overall mythology of the story. If Martin is resisting the Jungian concept of the universal myth and the collective unconscious--the AA and PTWP prophesies and their parallels with older myths--those could go sideways in interesting ways.

Its strange and a bit intriguing that no one has yet realized that the "Old powers" have a human component to them.

The mention of "chains" is interesting because of course Jojen sees Bran as being chained, and while the easy assumption is that its a reference to Bran being chained to the earth by his inability to walk and at that time not yet being able to fly, it might also have that deeper meaning.

Similarly the business of "brother fight sister" can very readily be seen in Craster and his sons; he manipulated and twisted into giving them up in his "enlightenment", and they likewise physically altered and twisted to serve the "Others" in their fight against humanity.

This is where i think Jojen got it wrong that imagery of Luuwin saying Shaggy must be chained and Bran thinking Shaggy doesn't belong there along with the other subtle hints says GRRM may have pulled a Lancelot/Percival on us with that.And having Bran there for now is going to be essed up for a bit.

There its worth bearing in mind a couple of other points, first; although Coldhands isn't wearing a shaman hood with antlers, he is riding an elk and Bran immediately asks whether he is one of the antler-wearing Green Men. He may or may not be, but they are certainly associated with the three-fingered tree-huggers, secondly; like Herne, Coldhands appears to be damned to wander forever, not unlike the Russian.

I don't know BC about CHs being just a wanderer on less he's "The stranger" :devil:

[addicted to snow]

True, but as I say that seems to be the difference between a dreamer and a seer. Jojen is picking things up, but either doesn't understand or can't properly articulate them. Its like a badly tuned radio. He's picking up messages intended for him to bring or assist in the bringing of Bran to the cave, but mixed in with that are other visions which he doesn't understand perhaps because they are not intended for him.

Jojen sees much & more in his visions... Whenever Jojen says something out of place or something that does not seem to fit in the series, it is because he has seen future events...

Specifically:

1. Jojen knows the location & the manner of his own death...

Jojen knows what is at the bottom of the spiral stairs @ The Nightfort...

[addicted to snow]

As to Jojen, perhaps its a language thing. Messages come to him in his dreams but because he's not a greenseer he can't translate them clearly

Well, Greenseers see the actual event through the eyes of a Weirwood & perhaps beyond...

Greendreams appear to be very different & to require interpretation...

[aDanceWithFlagons]

Oh I agree. While the Three-eyed Crow is not specifically referred to I think the intent is very plain As I've said before I suspect that just as men use crows to carry messages over long distances so the old gods use crows or at least appear as crows when entering mens' dreams.

We might therefore question whether Euron failed to fly or whether he did, and the Crows Eye is to be taken literally.

Right on. I do believe the three-eyed crow is more than a feeling.

[Black Crow]

:agree:, though they just empty the dungeons to augment the forces.

True, but that's still to the point. Its a convenient dumping ground, nothing more and here's where another passage from the Heart of Darkness has some resonance:

We pounded along, stopped, landed soldiers; went on, landed custom-house clerks to levy toll in what looked like a God-forsaken wilderness, with a tin shed and a flag-pole lost in it; landed more soldiers -to take care of the custom-house clerks, presumably. Some, I heard, got drowned in the surf; but whether they did or not, nobody seemed particularly to care. They were just flung out there and on we went.

To my mind at least it articulates both the pointlessness of the Watch's existence up to this point and the uncaring attitude of those who are sending men up there to die, pointlessly

[Black Crow]

I don't know BC about CHs being just a wanderer on less he's "The stranger" :devil:

Nah, he's just the Russian - or the Harlequin if you prefer - with no other significance than to act as Charon in convoying people to their destination.

[Black Crow]

Wouldn't Robert make more sense as the giant and a direct threat to Lady?

The black blood pouring out of him could also just be symbolic of his decadence and decline.

Yes I can definitely go with this interpretation; it does fit fit quite well if we remember that physically Robert was a big man and not just around the belly, the black blood could indeed represent his decline and the stone armour his being impervious to appeals.

[wolfmaid7]

Nah, he's just the Russian - or the Harlequin if you prefer - with no other significance than to act as Charon in convoying people to their destination.

With two books yet to go BC.I think it prudent we wait and see when and if he enter's the scene again,and in what capacity.I for one don't think his whole purpose was to be a Charon. George could have done without him and wrote something as Bran recieving a dream to find the gate.Or stuck to the 93 letter and leave him (CHs) out.

[Black Crow]

Ah... but some mysteries deserve to remain mysterious :cool4:

[wolfmaid7]

Ah... but some mysteries deserve to remain mysterious :cool4:

True true, but i think CHs may not be one of them.His entire nature screams of a reveal.

[Matthew.]

True true, but i think CHs may not be one of them.His entire nature screams of a reveal.

Agreed, he's too anomalous to not receive a partial explanation, at the very least. I doubt that GRRM is going to show us that there's a wight that has retained his free will, and lacks the burning blue eyes, and not touch upon it again in some way. He may not give us a detailed biography of who Coldhands is/was, but I expect that we will come to understand how he became what he is.

[WhitewolfStark]

Agreed, he's too anomalous to not receive a partial explanation, at the very least. I doubt that GRRM is going to show us that there's a wight that has retained his free will, and lacks the burning blue eyes, and not touch upon it again in some way. He may not give us a detailed biography of who Coldhands is/was, but I expect that we will come to understand how he became what he is.

To be quite honest, I think Jon is going to end up akin to Coldhands, when he returns.

[Matthew.]

To be quite honest, I think Jon is going to end up akin to Coldhands, when he returns.

I do as well. I believe his mind will be "protected" within Ghost, and his body will (for a time) be kept in the Cold Cells; later, when his body is brought back as a wight, I believe his mind will be able to return to his body, either through force of will, or assistance from Bran.

[wolfmaid7]

Agreed, he's too anomalous to not receive a partial explanation, at the very least. I doubt that GRRM is going to show us that there's a wight that has retained his free will, and lacks the burning blue eyes, and not touch upon it again in some way. He may not give us a detailed biography of who Coldhands is/was, but I expect that we will come to understand how he became what he is.

Very much so,i think a parallel exists (Shrouded Lord) that indicates that CHs isn't just a wight for the purpose of transporting people across county lines

[Lady Dyanna]

It's one more pointer that the Three-Eyed Crow may not be the dead man in the tree, but otherwise I'd say it means Bran was always intended to fall after being drawn to visit the crows. He just fell a little sooner thanks to Jaime Lannister

Not sure exactly what it was about your post that led me to thinking... It could just be an attempt to further a bond or sense of trust with Bran as he is already familiar with the crows that he visits and feeds and thinks of them as friends. Amazing the things that can spark off ideas... :cheers:

[Lady Dyanna]

The point about this particular aspect of the story [and its certainly not what the story is all about] is that it is a mystery, and we the readers are given clues which we need to work out. What we don't have, contrary to the impression given elsewhere, is a paper chase where we follow all the clues in a particular direction. There are different possible interpretations that can be placed on some of the clues - such as the rencounter on the road to Dorne and there are different possible outcomes. We're confident that Lyanna was Jon's mother, but we're offered multiple options concerning who the father was and so on. The trick is to figure out which of those options or which combination of options is correct and whether or not the staggeringly obvious one is a smoke screen to divert attention away from the truth. As to that truth we'll have to wait and see.

I hear what your saying. Thing is, I came to the board after my first read through of ASOIAF to see if I was on track believing RLJ. Then I remembered, I never guess the endings right. ;)

[Lady Dyanna]

This is where I have to go: and wouldn't Lyanna's opinion of him be lessened by going with him then?

But it very well could have been Lyanna made a break for it when she heard Rhaegar was close and Rhaegar had to try and solve the problem with Lyanna being stubborn and saying no she wouldn't go.

That's the thing about this story, any way you put it, nobody comes out looking completely good or justified, which I like, but I feel often gets overlooked.

It's so hard to tell for sure. It could very well be that this was not a turn off to her, as it wasn't in his "nature" to do this. If he married out of duty, this could be something Lyanna well understood, as this has been forced on her as well. But obviously she MUST be his true love if he would go against his nature to be with her...