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Rhaenys_Targaryen

Small Questions v. 10102

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If only death can pay for life, who died to bring back Baric Dondarrion? Am I stupid and just don't remember it?

There's a few ways to look at it, but the simplist is that Beric was sending a lot of folks off to meet their gods. The most problematic is when Thoros revives Beric after the Hound killed him. But since Beric was already dead, perhaps the revival no longer required death...

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But he saved her. He couldn't have reversed it, could he?

 

I might be getting the show confused with the books, but I thought Cressen and other maesters were unable to cure her and that is what lead Stannis to bring in Mel.

 

In any event, I think Cressen is sad because he was unable to cure her and now she leads a life mostly locked away and unable to experience many of the things a normal girl of her age would.

 

Edit: plus his failure is (maybe) what leads to Mel having such sway over Stannis, at least initially.

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I might be getting the show confused with the books, but I thought Cressen and other maesters were unable to cure her and that is what lead Stannis to bring in Mel.

I can't recall this from the show, and it definitely didn't happen in the books. That's not why Mel arrived

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We are told Illyrio wanted Viserys to remain in Pentos. Jorah was apparently doing his bidding. When Drogo died Jorah urged Daenerys to go with him to Asshai so they could take ship to Pentos.

 

Just a side note here, but I took Illyrio's urging Viserys to stay as a way for Illyrio to assure that he went with them. Reverse psychology.

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Just a side note here, but I took Illyrio's urging Viserys to stay as a way for Illyrio to assure that he went with them. Reverse psychology.

 

I learned a new term there: Reverse psychology. There's a saying there are three ways to accomplish a task: 1) do it yourself, 2) pay someone to do it, 3) forbid it to your kids. Illyrio was all for the last one.

 

eta: Ah, and we have more of that, when Cersei forbids Robert to join the Mêlèe.

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Sorry if this is too obvious: where was Barristan Selmy during the Tragedy of Summerhall?

Probably at Harvest Hall.. He wouldn't join the Kingsguard until after the War of the Ninepenny Kings

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Just a side note here, but I took Illyrio's urging Viserys to stay as a way for Illyrio to assure that he went with them. Reverse psychology.

You're not the only one, but that only makes sense if you believe Illyrio didn't want Viserys to vouch for Aegon's claim, and you believe he just threw that asset away into the Dothraki Sea. I don't buy it. And if Illyrio really did want to waste Viserys why not suggest that as king he must stay close to his army to make sure the Khal does not betray him?

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You're not the only one, but that only makes sense if you believe Illyrio didn't want Viserys to vouch for Aegon's claim, and you believe he just threw that asset away into the Dothraki Sea. I don't buy it. And if Illyrio really did want to waste Viserys why not suggest that as king he must stay close to his army to make sure the Khal does not betray him?

Why would Viserys ever be willing to vouch for Aegon's claim? As far as Viserys was aware, Aegon was dead, and Viserys himself had both been Aerys' heir upon Aerys' death, as well had been crowned. Aegon had been neither.

 

In Viserys' eyes, he would have had the better claim to the throne than Aegon.

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Why would Viserys ever be willing to vouch for Aegon's claim? As far as Viserys was aware, Aegon was dead, and Viserys himself had both been Aerys' heir upon Aerys' death, as well had been crowned. Aegon had been neither.
 
In Viserys' eyes, he would have had the better claim to the throne than Aegon.

I expect Viserys would have been offered Dorne (Arianne). If he had refused Belwas woulda chained him up in a sack with a few stones and tossed him into the Bay of Pentos. After a very sharp lesson of course. Or perhaps he would have been made to take Serra's place in Lys.

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Why would Viserys ever be willing to vouch for Aegon's claim? As far as Viserys was aware, Aegon was dead, and Viserys himself had both been Aerys' heir upon Aerys' death, as well had been crowned. Aegon had been neither.

 

In Viserys' eyes, he would have had the better claim to the throne than Aegon.

I think this is one of those areas we just don't have enough to go on. We need more illumination on what Varys and Illyrio's plans were and what drove them to do the things they did. tWoW can't come fast enough.

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I am currently re-reading GoT, and a few things have stood out for me. One of which is Benjen's actions after Jon's admission that he wishes to join the Knight's Watch. In Catelyn II, Maester Luwin says that Benjen came to him "a few days ago" to discuss Jon's ambition.

 

To me, this raises a couple of key questions:

 

1) Why did Benjen go to Maester Luwin, and not to Ned - Jon's father?

2) IF you believe that R+L=J, what does this say about Benjen's knowledge on the subject of Jon's parentage - does Benjen know who Jon's mother is?

 

To be honest, the latter got me thinking about whether Benjen knows about Jon's parentage regardless of whether or not R+L=J. 

 

The mention of "a few days ago" is GRRM's way of telling you that a number of days (in the case of days a few is usually thought of as 5, since the character would use "almost a week" if it were 6) has passes between the night that Maester Luwin had received the package with the lens and hidden note from Lysa (in Catelyn II), and the conversation Jon had with Benjen at the feast (Jon I).

 

Benjen was trying to be discreet and ask around to figure out if it were a good idea before he mentioned it to Eddard (possibly to try and avoid putting any idea in anyone's head). Part of Maester Luwin's job is to insure the education of children of the household, he also knows what injuries he's treated and is an independent observer of the children. If you were to ask them, Ser Rodik would likely tell you that Benjen had to talked to him about Jon's weapons knowledge and Hullen would tell you something similar but to do with horsemanship.

 

Benjen likely does not know who Jon's mother is, since Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell during the Rebellion and left to go to the wall about two years later (rebellion was over in 283 and Benjen has been at the wall for over twelve years in 298 (if I remember correctly).

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There's a few ways to look at it, but the simplist is that Beric was sending a lot of folks off to meet their gods. The most problematic is when Thoros revives Beric after the Hound killed him. But since Beric was already dead, perhaps the revival no longer required death...

It's pretty clear that Thoros was basically giving him a shot of his own life force to bring him back.

 

As to his state the sheer number of ressurection certainly did not help nor do the wounds suffered by Beric because the damage really is not fully repaired: Impaled on a lance, smashed in the head with a mace, hanged, stabbed in the eye with a dirk, shot by an archer, cleaved almost in two by the hound.

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You're not the only one, but that only makes sense if you believe Illyrio didn't want Viserys to vouch for Aegon's claim, and you believe he just threw that asset away into the Dothraki Sea. I don't buy it. And if Illyrio really did want to waste Viserys why not suggest that as king he must stay close to his army to make sure the Khal does not betray him?

 

Illyio was simply looking to make a huge distraction in Essos that could not be ignored by Robert and the crown. Varys and Illyio have been playing a long game, possibly dating back to before Robert's Rebellion (Varys became Master of Whisperers in 279AC) and may have been trying to split Aerys and Rhaegar, and certainly didn't help things with Aerys and Tywin.

 

If you think it was his intent for Daenerys or Viserys to actually accomplish anything besides getting Robert riled up, looking at Essos and fearing a Targaryen return with 50 thousand Dothraki, I think your sorely mistaken. Viserys was played into going to insure that Aegon's claim went unopposed, Illyio knew that he would be killed and got to look clean within Daenerys's eyes. If she actually accomplished mission of getting Drogo to lead his horde into Westeros, the kingdoms would be bloodied but would have smashed them down, leaving them ripe for an invasion by Aegon and company.

 

The birth of Dragons were a completely unforeseen event, as has been her success with the Aegon the Conqueror act, stomping around slavers bay.

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Illyio was simply looking to make a huge distraction in Essos that could not be ignored by Robert and the crown. Varys and Illyio have been playing a long game, possibly dating back to before Robert's Rebellion (Varys became Master of Whisperers in 279AC) and may have been trying to split Aerys and Rhaegar, and certainly didn't help things with Aerys and Tywin.
 
If you think it was his intent for Daenerys or Viserys to actually accomplish anything besides getting Robert riled up, looking at Essos and fearing a Targaryen return with 50 thousand Dothraki, I think your sorely mistaken. Viserys was played into going to insure that Aegon's claim went unopposed, Illyio knew that he would be killed and got to look clean within Daenerys's eyes. If she actually accomplished mission of getting Drogo to lead his horde into Westeros, the kingdoms would be bloodied but would have smashed them down, leaving them ripe for an invasion by Aegon and company.
 
The birth of Dragons were a completely unforeseen event, as has been her success with the Aegon the Conqueror act, stomping around slavers bay.

Hey Fat Man!
Yes my friend?
I know how we can have little Egg conquer Westeros real easy like.
Well, you are a wizard. Please, tell me.
Well, we'll give the true Targaryen heir an army, three dragon eggs, and bankroll his war effort.
Umm ... Are you sure, my friend?
Absolutely.
But wouldn't an invading army actually untite the great houses?
Pah, I say pah! 50,000 Dothraki will bring the Seven Kingdoms to their knees.
Umm 50,000 unsupported light cavalry ... really?
Of course! The Houses Baratheon, Lannister, Arryn, and Tully will be in shock and awe. Then the failing strength of all seven great houses will cause the peasants to rally to the grandson of the Mad King and, the ones who don't will be crushed by the Golden Company.
But how do we get Viserys to go along with it?
Why, we tell him not to!
Oh, I see.

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The idea that Illyrio wanted both Dany and Viserys die in the Dothraki sea is absurd. We know JonCon thought Viserys was supposed to join Aegon before he died which means there was so reverse psychology. Hard to know how Viserys/Aegon would have co-existed but that was apparently the plan.

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Probably at Harvest Hall.. He wouldn't join the Kingsguard until after the War of the Ninepenny Kings

 

That reminds me, small question...

For some reason I was sure Barristan was the heir to Harvest Hall when he chose to join the KG, but now I can't find the source. Was that just me making stuff up cause I like the old dude?

 

 

 

Why would Viserys ever be willing to vouch for Aegon's claim? As far as Viserys was aware, Aegon was dead, and Viserys himself had both been Aerys' heir upon Aerys' death, as well had been crowned. Aegon had been neither.

 

In Viserys' eyes, he would have had the better claim to the throne than Aegon.

 

I'm just about to another woiaf reread. This naming Viserys heir business I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around... Do we know for a fact Viserys even knew he had been named heir?

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The mention of "a few days ago" is GRRM's way of telling you that a number of days (in the case of days a few is usually thought of as 5, since the character would use "almost a week" if it were 6) has passes between the night that Maester Luwin had received the package with the lens and hidden note from Lysa (in Catelyn II), and the conversation Jon had with Benjen at the feast (Jon I).

I wouldn't say 'a few days' is usually five. It could just as easily mean three, or four, for example.

Benjen likely does not know who Jon's mother is, since Benjen was the Stark in Winterfell during the Rebellion and left to go to the wall about two years later (rebellion was over in 283 and Benjen has been at the wall for over twelve years in 298 (if I remember correctly).

It isn't stated exactly how long Benjen had been at the Wall (meaning, no exact number had been mentioned).

However, we do know he joined within months after Ned returned from the war. As the war seems to have officially ended late in 283 AC, and Ned still had business in the south, a safe estimation for Benjen leaving for the Wall is 284 AC, which would mean he had been at the Wall for 14 years when we first see him in AGOT.

 
That reminds me, small question...
For some reason I was sure Barristan was the heir to Harvest Hall when he chose to join the KG, but now I can't find the source. Was that just me making stuff up cause I like the old dude?
 
 
 
 
I'm just about to another woiaf reread. This naming Viserys heir business I'm having a hard time wrapping my head around... Do we know for a fact Viserys even knew he had been named heir?

Sansa V, agot

Sansa watched as the knight peered up at his new king. She had never seen him look his years before, yet now he did. Your Grace, he said. I was chosen for the White Swords in my twenty-third year. It was all I had ever dreamed, from the moment I first took sword in hand. I gave up all claim to my ancestral keep. The girl I was to wed married my cousin in my place, I had no need of land or sons, my life would be lived for the realm.


As to Viserys, I guess he knew. Why would Aerys keep that a secret?
In any case, he had been crowned on Dragonstone after Aerys' death, so he had that over Aegon's claim as well.

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That reminds me, small question...
For some reason I was sure Barristan was the heir to Harvest Hall when he chose to join the KG, but now I can't find the source. Was that just me making stuff up cause I like the old dude?

You got it right...

"Your Grace," he said. "I was chosen for the White Swords in my twenty-third year. It was all I had ever dreamed, from the moment I first took sword in hand. I gave up all claim to my ancestral keep. The girl I was to wed married my cousin in my place, I had no need of land or sons, my life would be lived for the realm. Ser Gerold Hightower himself heard my vows . . . to ward the king with all my strength . . . to give my blood for his . . . I fought beside the White Bull and Prince Lewyn of Dorne . . . beside Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning. Before I served your father, I helped shield King Aerys, and his father Jaehaerys before him . . . three kings . . . "

Sansa V, Game 57

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