Why do people assume the FM are anti-slavery when they took a contract from Euron?

[bemused]

I don't think they did take a contract from Euron. There will be some other interpretation of "a man without a face".

[A Bastard Snow]

I don't think they did take a contract from Euron. There will be some other interpretation of "a man without a face".

There is no other interpretation in the series.It was simply a way for the prophecy to be vague enough that you couldn't know it was going to happen.
If Patchface was "King Robb Starks blood Aegon Freys blood Roslin Freys blood everyone who goes to Edmures wedding is going to die or be imprisoned then the RW would have been no surprise.
Instead you get "Kings blood fools blood blood on the maidens thigh but chains for the guests and the bridegroom aye aye aye"

[A-Faceless-Woman]

We know too little about the FM to say for sure they are anti-slavery. But as some said before, they take contracts only for people willing to pay the price (in Euron's case, a dragon egg dropped in the sea). Given that their price is never really a certain amount of money, people are less willing to pay the price. 

Besides, I don't think they have any line of conduct concerning their behaviour towards the kingdom politics and family wars. They don't judge if the man they have to kill is good or evil, accordingly I doubt they judge their motives (Euron wanting to be King in this case). They serve their God, they don't serve anyone else. (Hope GRRM will enlighten us on the FM in TWOW!) 

[sweetsunray]

The FM take the price themselves. That's how they got the Waif.  Her father was not told to sacrifice her to the god they followed.

 

Where in the text is the evidence that they must take the price themselves. The waif is a person they can use, of course she must not be sacrificed to a god. They're pragmatic, not dumb fools.

[sweetsunray]

We know too little about the FM to say for sure they are anti-slavery. But as some said before, they take contracts only for people willing to pay the price (in Euron's case, a dragon egg dropped in the sea). Given that their price is never really a certain amount of money, people are less willing to pay the price. 

Besides, I don't think they have any line of conduct concerning their behaviour towards the kingdom politics and family wars. They don't judge if the man they have to kill is good or evil, accordingly I doubt they judge their motives (Euron wanting to be King in this case). They serve their God, they don't serve anyone else. (Hope GRRM will enlighten us on the FM in TWOW!) 

 

The stories of the the first FM: assisted suicide for the slaves that wanted their mysery ended, first assassination a slave master. Their sole seat is in Braavos.

 

That's an assumption made based on too quick a reading of what the KM says. He says that Arya must not judge. And he says that the Many Faced God does not weigh souls, since everyone dies, otherwise some people would live forever based on how good or bad they are. Arya is an acolyte, used to execute her job. She's not an initiate. She's not a priest. Of course she shouldn't judge. The Many Faced God is death. Death does not weigh souls. Death is amoral. But that doesn't mean the priests and the high-ups of the FM don't make the decisions, and inherently make the judgment call.

 

The legends of the first FM make clear that they know that the FM decides which prayer may please the Many Faced God and which not. A slave prays for his slave master to be killed, and willing to give everything he has for it. The first FM thinks it would please the god, and does it. The first FM is a human being, an empathic human who helps those who suffer with suicide. An empathic human being chooses what might be a proper assassination target based on a moral system. The KM is directly telling us that the FM made the decision and weighed what he/she thought would be a good assassin target and a proper price. Both good and bad die, just in another way - the first by assisted suicide, the second through assassination. Can you name one empathic, kind, generous human being having been killed by the FM through assassination? Not one.

 

Consider the KM's answer abuot the Ugly Girl and her father. He sooths Arya by telling her that the girl is dead. She came to them for the gift of mercy. Arya asks whether they killed the father. His answer is evasive - the girl didn't pray for it. But he does tell her the father died. And he says something very peculiar. First he says "like all men die". But then he immediately adds, "like a certain man must die on the morrow." (paraphrasing). The man who's to die the next day is Arya's assassination target. So, basically, the KM has actually said that the father indeed died through assassination, and yet the ugly girl didn't pray for it. Hmmmm.

 

Did anyone pray for Pate's death? Of course not. Note that he died after he had proven to have stolen the key, proved to break his vows and betray his order for money to pay for a whore.

[A-Faceless-Woman]

 

The stories of the the first FM: assisted suicide for the slaves that wanted their mysery ended, first assassination a slave master. Their sole seat is in Braavos.

 

That's an assumption made based on too quick a reading of what the KM says. He says that Arya must not judge. And he says that the Many Faced God does not weigh souls, since everyone dies, otherwise some people would live forever based on how good or bad they are. Arya is an acolyte, used to execute her job. She's not an initiate. She's not a priest. Of course she shouldn't judge. The Many Faced God is death. Death does not weigh souls. Death is amoral. But that doesn't mean the priests and the high-ups of the FM don't make the decisions, and inherently make the judgment call.

 

The legends of the first FM make clear that they know that the FM decides which prayer may please the Many Faced God and which not. A slave prays for his slave master to be killed, and willing to give everything he has for it. The first FM thinks it would please the god, and does it. The first FM is a human being, an empathic human who helps those who suffer with suicide. An empathic human being chooses what might be a proper assassination target based on a moral system. The KM is directly telling us that the FM made the decision and weighed what he/she thought would be a good assassin target and a proper price. Both good and bad die, just in another way - the first by assisted suicide, the second through assassination. Can you name one empathic, kind, generous human being having been killed by the FM through assassination? Not one.

 

Consider the KM's answer abuot the Ugly Girl and her father. He sooths Arya by telling her that the girl is dead. She came to them for the gift of mercy. Arya asks whether they killed the father. His answer is evasive - the girl didn't pray for it. But he does tell her the father died. And he says something very peculiar. First he says "like all men die". But then he immediately adds, "like a certain man must die on the morrow." (paraphrasing). The man who's to die the next day is Arya's assassination target. So, basically, the KM has actually said that the father indeed died through assassination, and yet the ugly girl didn't pray for it. Hmmmm.

 

Did anyone pray for Pate's death? Of course not. Note that he died after he had proven to have stolen the key, proved to break his vows and betray his order for money to pay for a whore.

 I see your point, and do agree to a certain extent that a human being always emits a judgement. 

 

However, there is no proof that the FM killed the ugly girl's father, it's a bit too far stretched for me to believe without questioning that they did. Although if they did, you cannot say that no one paid the price for it.

 

As to the legend of the 1st FM, his first "targets" are actually slaves that asked for the end of their suffering, for being free from the slavers. Accordingly, the 1st FM judged that to end their suffering it was better to help them suicide than to kill the slaver. A man might have judged, just as Arya, that the slaver was to be the target. The FM decided that the slave were the ones to die. For me, his judgement is more "I am going to answer their prayers, and I am not going to judge whether he deserved it or not". The man that asks for the slavers to be killed is not the 1st prayer to be answered. And his life is asked for his prayer to be answered: the slave has to serve the Many-Faced God for his prayer to be answered. 

 

Now true that Arya is an apprentice and thus doesn't know all of the FM decision-making. Thus we can only know what she learns from the KM and assume certain things. 

But one thing that makes me think they don't really judge much is that they do not kill the people they know. If you don't know a person, can you really make a judgement on the question "he/she deserves to die"? 

As you said then, the judgement is more on if the price they are willing to pay is good enough for the Many-Faced God, but merely on the goodness of a person.

Persons asking for the gift for themselves spend the remaining of their time praying the God, and "decide" when they are ready to pay the ultimate price. They are considered the good people because they ask for their death to escape from something. 

The "evil" persons will never ask themselves the "gift", so it seems logical that someone would ask and be willing to pay a price the FM judge to be enough.

In my opinion, the decision is thus made on the price, not the goodness or evil-ness (if that's a word) of the person.

I think Euron's case kind of shows it: it would have been a lesser evil to let Balon live, yet, it certainly is even much of a lesser evil to have one dragon egg at the bottom of the ocean. Thus, again, the judgement is on the price: a dragon egg is enough for someone's life. 

As to Pate, I think there's way more to it than we know so far, and I'm not convinced yet that he died only because he proved to have been "evil". 

[sweetsunray]

 I see your point, and do agree to a certain extent that a human being always emits a judgement. 

 

However, there is no proof that the FM killed the ugly girl's father, it's a bit too far stretched for me to believe without questioning that they did. 

 

As to the legend of the 1st FM, his first "targets" are actually slaves that asked for the end of their suffering, for being free from the slavers. Accordingly, the 1st FM judged that to end their suffering it was better to help them suicide than to kill the slaver. A man might have judged, just as Arya, that the slaver was to be the target. The FM decided that the slave were the ones to die. For me, his judgement is more "I am going to answer their prayers, and I am not going to judge whether he deserved it or not". The man that asks for the slavers to be killed is not the 1st prayer to be answered. And his life is asked for his prayer to be answered: the slave has to serve the Many-Faced God for his prayer to be answered. 

 

Now true that Arya is an apprentice and thus doesn't know all of the FM decision-making. Thus we can only know what she learns from the KM and assume certain things. 

But one thing that makes me think they don't really judge much is that they do not kill the people they know. If you don't know a person, can you really make a judgement on the question "he/she deserves to die"? 

As you said then, the judgement is more on if the price they are willing to pay is good enough for the Many-Faced God, but merely on the goodness of a person.

Persons asking for the gift for themselves spend the remaining of their time praying the God, and "decide" when they are ready to pay the ultimate price. They are considered the good people because they ask for their death to escape from something. 

The "evil" persons will never ask themselves the "gift", so it seems logical that someone would ask and be willing to pay a price the FM judge to be enough.

In my opinion, the decision is thus made on the price, not the goodness or evil-ness (if that's a word) of the person.

 

As to Pate, I think there's way more to it than we know so far, and I'm not convinced yet that he died only because he proved to have been "evil".  

 

If a judge in our system knows the accused, doesn't he too have a moral obligatian to pass the trial on someone else? But a judge presiding a trial still "judges" the accused they don't know, do they not?.

 

No there is no evidence that they killed the ugly girl's father, but there is a hint for it if you read KM's replies carefully, and there certainly is no evidence to the contrary either. After all, the KM did know the father was dead.

 

There is  a difference between asnwering someone's prayers to end their suffering and solving the cause/problem. The first FM was on their own. And I highly suspect it was actually a woman, who came to tend the wounded or volunteered for some charity to give food and drnks. After all, poison is a woman's weapon, is it not? It would explain why the first FM opted for assisted suicide of the suffering and later moved on to actually assassinating a slave master. A man would have the means and culturally more educated to try to solve the problem through murdering the slave master first.

 

Where did I say Pate was "evil"? But if it merely had been "kill him" so I can have the key, then why was it so important for the Alchemist that pate gave him the key voluntarily? He was only killed as a means to an end after he voluntarily acted selfishly and committed a form of theft.

[A-Faceless-Woman]

 

If a judge in our system knows the accused, doesn't he too have a moral obligatian to pass the trial on someone else? But a judge presiding a trial still "judges" the accused they don't know, do they not?.

 

No there is no evidence that they killed the ugly girl's father, but there is a hint for it if you read KM's replies carefully, and there certainly is no evidence to the contrary either. After all, the KM did know the father was dead.

 

There is  a difference between asnwering someone's prayers to end their suffering and solving the cause/problem. The first FM was on their own. And I highly suspect it was actually a woman, who came to tend the wounded or volunteered for some charity to give food and drnks. After all, poison is a woman's weapon, is it not? It would explain why the first FM opted for assisted suicide of the suffering and later moved on to actually assassinating a slave master. A man would have the means and culturally more educated to try to solve the problem through murdering the slave master first.

 

Where did I say Pate was "evil"? But if it merely had been "kill him" so I can have the key, then why was it so important for the Alchemist that pate gave him the key voluntarily? He was only killed as a means to an end after he voluntarily acted selfishly and committed a form of theft.

 

Concerning Pate, I meant "evil" in the sense that he had free will in deciding whether or not give steal the key, and chose to act selfishly (so the "evil" path between the two). But we don't know enough to assert that he was killed only on the basis that he acted selfishly. 

 

I don't understand all of what you say on the 1st FM. That it was a man or a woman, the 1st FM killed the slaver to answer one of the slave's prayer. I don't see why you would say "A man would have the means and culturally more educated to try to solve the problem through murdering the slave master first" when it was the same person that answered the suicide prayer and the assassination prayer. That it was the slave that was more educated doesn't change the acts of the 1st FM: the 1st FM answered prayers. 

 

Concerning the ugly girl's father, indeed there is no evidence that they didn't kill him, but there is no evidence that they killed him on judging he was good or evil either. If the man was evil to one person, he was evil with other. The ugly girl chose the gift for herself. Someone else might have chosen to pay the price for the man. I doubt that FM go around killing "evil" men without someone having asked for it. 

 

As for the trial, yes judges judge the accused, but I do not think you could compare our trials as we have in justice departments today with the FM judgements. First, the final judgement is not death (at least not in my country, I do not know if it is in yours). Second, FM do not assert themselves as "Justiciar" in the sense that their existence, so far, hasn't been one of Justice body. If so, they wouldn't accept to give the gift to innocent people. The mere fact that they accept to give it to innocent people is, in my opinion, a reason for them not to be justiciars. 

 

Maybe you can one day convince me that they judge on "evil" or "good", but for the moment, I'm not sure we have enough elements to really assert that they do. At least I don't. Now I'm open to read all the arguments and change some of my opinions as well, but not to go so far as to say "they judge evil acts and good acts when accepting a contract".

 

Also, do we assume that people coming to end their suffering are "good" people? Is their an actual process for that? Can there be any refusal from the FM (like "you havn't suffered enough" or "you're too good of a person")? (This is not an opinion but a real question, to prove no arguments but improve my understanding if you have any ideas as to that)

[sweetsunray]

 

Concerning Pate, I meant "evil" in the sense that he had free will in deciding whether or not give steal the key, and chose to act selfishly (so the "evil" path between the two). But we don't know enough to assert that he was killed only on the basis that he acted selfishly. 

 

I don't understand all of what you say on the 1st FM. That it was a man or a woman, the 1st FM killed the slaver to answer one of the slave's prayer. I don't see why you would say "A man would have the means and culturally more educated to try to solve the problem through murdering the slave master first" when it was the same person that answered the suicide prayer and the assassination prayer. That it was the slave that was more educated doesn't change the acts of the 1st FM: the 1st FM answered prayers. 

 

Concerning the ugly girl's father, indeed there is no evidence that they didn't kill him, but there is no evidence that they killed him on judging he was good or evil either. If the man was evil to one person, he was evil with other. The ugly girl chose the gift for herself. Someone else might have chosen to pay the price for the man. I doubt that FM go around killing "evil" men without someone having asked for it. 

 

As for the trial, yes judges judge the accused, but I do not think you could compare our trials as we have in justice departments today with the FM judgements. First, the final judgement is not death (at least not in my country, I do not know if it is in yours). Second, FM do not assert themselves as "Justiciar" in the sense that their existence, so far, hasn't been one of Justice body. If so, they wouldn't accept to give the gift to innocent people. The mere fact that they accept to give it to innocent people is, in my opinion, a reason for them not to be justiciars. 

 

Maybe you can one day convince me that they judge on "evil" or "good", but for the moment, I'm not sure we have enough elements to really assert that they do. At least I don't. Now I'm open to read all the arguments and change some of my opinions as well, but not to go so far as to say "they judge evil acts and good acts when accepting a contract".

 

Also, do we assume that people coming to end their suffering are "good" people? Is their an actual process for that? Can there be any refusal from the FM (like "you havn't suffered enough" or "you're too good of a person")? (This is not an opinion but a real question, to prove no arguments but improve my understanding if you have any ideas as to that)

 

Those who seek death are granted death, a merciful death with the sweetsleep poison. 

 

Their prices vary from throwing an axe into a burning cage for 3 names, including a king if she had named Joffrey, to the price for 2 sellsword armies for a "merchant". The fact that it can vary so much is an indication they approach a prayer case by case, just like judges do in giving a person probation, 1 month of time, or years of time. If there is such variation then it has to do with who's asking and/or who's to be killed. LF fears it'll ruin the gold chest if they were to ask a hit on Dany, for she's a princess. And yet Joffrey was a king, and Jaqen was eager to do him, for basically 1/3 of an axe throw. So it's got nothing to do with status or title... but the internal who.

 

I don't think GRRM will ever be anywhere explicit about the workings of the FM, as he isn't with other factions either. Even plain factual events are often ambiguously shown or learned about through hearsay. Even with just the simple fact that Roose had an agreement with Vargo to help him acquire HH, you need to read between the lines. We'll just have to figure it out ourselves like a jigsaw puzzle.

 

Abouth the 1st FM: while I think women and men are basically the same, there is a cultural influence regarding gender roles and agency, certainly in a stratified culture as Valyria, and Westeros. Men in such cultures are imo more likely to solve the problem by eradicating the slave master (saving slaves) than actually be the nurse who performs euthanasia. The first FM was a witness to suffering, witness to many praying to their gods and nothing happening. Instead of leading an underground revolt, the FM limited imo herself to simply the empathic ending the lives of the sufferer with the gift of mercy. Only after many of these cases, the First took the step to actually kill a slave master. This suggests an evolution of agency within the First, from limited daring to empowerment. On top of that there main weapon is poison, which is regarded within the books as a woman's weapon. That's why I suspect the First was a woman. And I think it matters, because of Arya. 

 

Pate: I didn't say he was ONLY killed for that. He was first of all a means to an end, means to gain access into the citadel to do whatever needs to be done there. But it is noteworthy that he was only murdered after he became a thief for pure self-interest, and not before that. The alchemist could have killed Pate easily without that process of straying. And yet he never did. The result is that all the people we know to have been killed by an FM were not altruistic, innocent people. Had say LF asked the price for Ned Stark, which may actually have happened, it would have been so ridiculously high a price, LF would never have agreed to it. He wouldn't have gotten a hit on Ned Stark for the price of an axe thrown.

[AerionBrightflameII]

I think he hired a Faceless Man and payed with a Dragons Egg.

I refuse to believe he had nothing to do with Balons death.

[A-Faceless-Woman]

 

Those who seek death are granted death, a merciful death with the sweetsleep poison. 

 

Their prices vary from throwing an axe into a burning cage for 3 names, including a king if she had named Joffrey, to the price for 2 sellsword armies for a "merchant". The fact that it can vary so much is an indication they approach a prayer case by case, just like judges do in giving a person probation, 1 month of time, or years of time. If there is such variation then it has to do with who's asking and/or who's to be killed. LF fears it'll ruin the gold chest if they were to ask a hit on Dany, for she's a princess. And yet Joffrey was a king, and Jaqen was eager to do him, for basically 1/3 of an axe throw. So it's got nothing to do with status or title... but the internal who.

 

I don't think GRRM will ever be anywhere explicit about the workings of the FM, as he isn't with other factions either. Even plain factual events are often ambiguously shown or learned about through hearsay. Even with just the simple fact that Roose had an agreement with Vargo to help him acquire HH, you need to read between the lines. We'll just have to figure it out ourselves like a jigsaw puzzle.

 

Abouth the 1st FM: while I think women and men are basically the same, there is a cultural influence regarding gender roles and agency, certainly in a stratified culture as Valyria, and Westeros. Men in such cultures are imo more likely to solve the problem by eradicating the slave master (saving slaves) than actually be the nurse who performs euthanasia. The first FM was a witness to suffering, witness to many praying to their gods and nothing happening. Instead of leading an underground revolt, the FM limited imo herself to simply the empathic ending the lives of the sufferer with the gift of mercy. Only after many of these cases, the First took the step to actually kill a slave master. This suggests an evolution of agency within the First, from limited daring to empowerment. On top of that there main weapon is poison, which is regarded within the books as a woman's weapon. That's why I suspect the First was a woman. And I think it matters, because of Arya. 

 

Pate: I didn't say he was ONLY killed for that. He was first of all a means to an end, means to gain access into the citadel to do whatever needs to be done there. But it is noteworthy that he was only murdered after he became a thief for pure self-interest, and not before that. The alchemist could have killed Pate easily without that process of straying. And yet he never did. The result is that all the people we know to have been killed by an FM were not altruistic, innocent people. Had say LF asked the price for Ned Stark, which may actually have happened, it would have been so ridiculously high a price, LF would never have agreed to it. He wouldn't have gotten a hit on Ned Stark for the price of an axe thrown.

 

I know GRRM will never give us full information on the FM, I'm just hoping for a bit more to get a proper grasp and opinion on them. 

 

I have read some of your previous posts in different threads on the importance of Arya within the FM and I find them really interesting (that is it might get inspired by Nordic mythology and the Valkyrie). I think it wasn't randomly that Arya and Jaqen met, so the explanation you've given might be true (and it would be quite badass to be honest). So thanks for that! 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

 

Where in the text is the evidence that they must take the price themselves. The waif is a person they can use, of course she must not be sacrificed to a god. They're pragmatic, not dumb fools.

The waif might have ended up not being useful to them.  She was the price because she was what her father treasured most in the world.  Not all the gods require death in sacrifices, and there are all of their world's religions in Braavos. They could have said he had to sacrifice her to the Silent Sisters, or any number of other options which would not include death. Instead they took her for themselves.

 

You're right, they're pragmatic.  And a dragon egg is worth a fortune and a half.  No way they'd let that little treasure slip through their fingers.  Without hatching, they could still sell it quietly and have enough money to cover overhead for the next couple of centuries.

 

Where's the evidence that they take the price?  How about the fact that what you have to pay is based on 1) how much money you have and 2) how important the target is.  They can't keep up their organization just on what's in the pockets of those who come to receive the gift in the temple.  Like you said, pragmatism...money is the standard of transaction in Braavos--home of the Iron Bank--as it is elsewhere in Planetos.

 

Where exactly is the evidence that they don't take the price themselves?

[sweetsunray]

 

I know GRRM will never give us full information on the FM, I'm just hoping for a bit more to get a proper grasp and opinion on them. 

 

I have read some of your previous posts in different threads on the importance of Arya within the FM and I find them really interesting (that is it might get inspired by Nordic mythology and the Valkyrie). I think it wasn't randomly that Arya and Jaqen met, so the explanation you've given might be true (and it would be quite badass to be honest). So thanks for that! 

 

Yeah, it would be badass. But let's say that even it was coincidence that Jaqen and Arya met: she was recruited based on 2 requirements

1. empathy: give a dangerous criminal in a cage water, save the lives of criminals of a disaster

2. you get 3 names: what sort of names does she pick (aka what are her values?) ...and they were all monstrous people...

 

If they recruit based on the fact that someone has empathy, then becoming 'no one' does not mean losing humanity...

[hear me bore]

I'm still not sold he hired a faceless man as opposed to some other type of magic. Wouldn't the faceless men make him give up his most prized possession, Silence?

[A-Faceless-Woman]

 

Yeah, it would be badass. But let's say that even it was coincidence that Jaqen and Arya met: she was recruited based on 2 requirements

1. empathy: give a dangerous criminal in a cage water, save the lives of criminals of a disaster

2. you get 3 names: what sort of names does she pick (aka what are her values?) ...and they were all monstrous people...

 

If they recruit based on the fact that someone has empathy, then becoming 'no one' does not mean losing humanity...

 

I completely agree. I find Arya's arc to be one of the most interesting (if not the most) and the FM super intriguing. 

 

I don't think she has ever lost her humanity by becoming 'no one'. I feel it's more about being able to become anyone, to be able to lie without getting caught than completely losing her identity. FM have values and I think she'll fit well with them. 

As for the 3 names, she could have given names that hurt her directly. If I remember well, she chose two of the most violent and hatable people at Harrenhal that didn't hurt her the most. Cannot wait to see her story developing more and more. 

[sweetsunray]

I'm still not sold he hired a faceless man as opposed to some other type of magic. Wouldn't the faceless men make him give up his most prized possession, Silence?

 

Ah, but what does Euron want the most? His ship or a dragon?

[Wavey Sauce]

 

The stories of the the first FM: assisted suicide for the slaves that wanted their mysery ended, first assassination a slave master. Their sole seat is in Braavos.

 

That's an assumption made based on too quick a reading of what the KM says. He says that Arya must not judge. And he says that the Many Faced God does not weigh souls, since everyone dies, otherwise some people would live forever based on how good or bad they are. Arya is an acolyte, used to execute her job. She's not an initiate. She's not a priest. Of course she shouldn't judge. The Many Faced God is death. Death does not weigh souls. Death is amoral. But that doesn't mean the priests and the high-ups of the FM don't make the decisions, and inherently make the judgment call.

 

The legends of the first FM make clear that they know that the FM decides which prayer may please the Many Faced God and which not. A slave prays for his slave master to be killed, and willing to give everything he has for it. The first FM thinks it would please the god, and does it. The first FM is a human being, an empathic human who helps those who suffer with suicide. An empathic human being chooses what might be a proper assassination target based on a moral system. The KM is directly telling us that the FM made the decision and weighed what he/she thought would be a good assassin target and a proper price. Both good and bad die, just in another way - the first by assisted suicide, the second through assassination. Can you name one empathic, kind, generous human being having been killed by the FM through assassination? Not one.

 

Consider the KM's answer abuot the Ugly Girl and her father. He sooths Arya by telling her that the girl is dead. She came to them for the gift of mercy. Arya asks whether they killed the father. His answer is evasive - the girl didn't pray for it. But he does tell her the father died. And he says something very peculiar. First he says "like all men die". But then he immediately adds, "like a certain man must die on the morrow." (paraphrasing). The man who's to die the next day is Arya's assassination target. So, basically, the KM has actually said that the father indeed died through assassination, and yet the ugly girl didn't pray for it. Hmmmm.

 

Did anyone pray for Pate's death? Of course not. Note that he died after he had proven to have stolen the key, proved to break his vows and betray his order for money to pay for a whore.

 

That "whore" was the girl he loved that he wanted to move away with and start a new life.......

 

So because he stole a key and broke a vow he deserved death? Keep in mind he is just a younger kid as well. Def below age of 18

[Wavey Sauce]

I'm still not sold he hired a faceless man as opposed to some other type of magic. Wouldn't the faceless men make him give up his most prized possession, Silence?

 

What would the FM want with a ship with a random ass crowd of people all of whom cant speak?

[sweetsunray]

 

That "whore" was the girl he loved that he wanted to move away with and start a new life.......

 

So because he stole a key and broke a vow he deserved death? Keep in mind he is just a younger kid as well. Def below age of 18

 

Did I say I think he "deserved" death? Pate was a means to an end for the Alchemist. The Alchemist could have killed him easily and get the key without the carrot of the coin to betray his order. But he didn't. It was the act of the betrayal for his selfish reasons that did Pate in. The word 'selfish ' might sound harsh and judgmental from me. But it is only meant in the objective sense - he wanted something for himself, a girl. In life we often are confronted between choosing to do something just for ourselves alone at the cost of many others. When it is at the cost of others, then that is "selfish". Personally, depending on the cost I think everyone is allowed some selfishness. I don't believe in complete altruism. Sometimes altruism and selfishness go hand in hand, sometimes they oppose each other. In Pate's case it was choosing to betray his maester and Citadel to some stranger he has no clue what he's up to, against his vows, with the hope to win the girl he loved. He chose himself and basically thought "fuck the Citadel", hence he made a selfish choice that could have very dire consequences for the Citadel. For all he knew, the Alchemist planned to kill his maester. In that perspective, he would have let someone murder his maester so he could have his bit of money to win a girl. That's the most selfish reason, especially when you don't even know if the girl likes him back. And I think it was that choice that allowed the Alchemist the wriggle room to assassinate "an obstacle". 

 

And what has 18 to do with it? People are considered adults at 16 in aSoIaF.  

[bemused]

I'm still not sold he hired a faceless man as opposed to some other type of magic. Wouldn't the faceless men make him give up his most prized possession, Silence?

 

Yes, I'm with you.. a man without a face is not necessarily a faceless man.

 

The report to Robb of the captain of the Myraham cites a freak storm that blew the bridge to smithereens.. It came out of the west, suddenly, mirroring the tactics Euron later uses in his attacks. Euron has warlocks, who the men sailing under him credit with conjuring winds.. Euron says of himself, "I am the storm". Euron has himself taken enough shade of the evening to turn his lips blue.. has he become a warlock? or is he possibly a warlock wearing a Euron glamour? The undying wanted to draw strength from Dany (would she have become a shell?). They wanted her dragons..

 

There is certainly enough here to raise doubts about the GoHH's dream.

 

From the FM side of things.. My bet is that there will be at least a working relationship between the FM,the IB and the Sealord.. where matters affecting Braavos are concerned. Braavos is anti-slavery, no doubt. They will not allow ships carrying slave to enter their port, and have tried to stop other city-states from keeping / dealing in slaves.

 

And Braavos relies on trade. Reavers disrupt trade, steal wealth that might have been owed to the IB, randomly kill people who might be indebted to the IB, or allies of Braavos .. and they can't be trusted. I cannot see the advantage to the HoB&W in dealing with someone so antithetical to the interests of their mother state.

 

But, It's pretty obvious that elite FM can make "judgement" calls in the field.. I highly doubt Pate was an identified target before the Alchemist arrived in Oldtown.. and it seems pretty likely that the Alchemist is acting in the interests of Braavos. Assuming he's Jaqen, it's not clear that he would have had time to return to Braavos and then go to Oldtown.

 

The Alchemist would have had to do some classic FM observing beforehand..whose key would be easiest, and least disruptive to steal? Who would provide the most direct path to the key? and what would be the weakness of that person? (everyone has a weakness)

 

.. But obviously, he doesn't just need the key, he also needs to stay there and observe the workings of the Citadel.. Who's who ? What or who are they working for ? The way to do that is find the person who has access to the right places and people, but is themselves least noteworthy, least likely to arouse suspicions.. There's no moral judgement involved. 

 

ETA: Pate is accepted by those bright young things flocking to Marwyn, who has a glass candle burning, but he's a lightweight..a tag-along..it's only Sam he makes uncomfortable.

 

Having said all that, I don't think the FM are personally always immune to emotion. Remember the way Jaqen kissed Arya's hair... a tender and almost parental gesture.