Why do people assume the FM are anti-slavery when they took a contract from Euron?

[sweetsunray]

Thank you for correcting me on that.  I really need to get on that re-read.

 

 

Euron needed Balon out of the way via a method that leaves no proof that he was behind it.  That means his options are assassins who won't tell, or do it himself and hope nobody witnesses it.

 

The FM don't need to worry about Euron disrupting anything.  As long as he stays away from Braavos they're fine.  And if he messes with them, they have the means to take him out.

 

Dreams are not always tricky to interpret.  But I am looking forward to an interpretation of a man without a face that doesn't include a Faceless Man. Because I still can't think of one, and if you've seen my theories you know I have a very active imagination. ;) Sometimes the obvious is obvious for a reason.  I may have to start referring to this as Occam's Assassin. 

 

Yes, he does indeed love puzzles. 

 

Yup, he loves puzzles, but he aslo wants us to figure it out. The mystery to me isn't "did a FM do it?", but what was the price, did he really toss it overboard, what's in it for the FM beyond a dragon egg at the bottom of the sea?

 

I'm wondering whether they know he's got a dragonhorn (they must know, I'm sure), and what do they plan with Euron posessing a dragon? Kill the dragon and have only 2 dragons left in the known world? And is Euron truly the bad one? I find it suspicuous that Moqorro tries to win Vic for the red god's side and against Euron. And with Euron's eyepatch and him having seen every bit of the world supposedly he pretty much falls into a faction like Beric and BR. Beric and Thoros think they're doing Rh'llors work, but they don't burn people and pretty much work and cooperate with the weirnet forces. Does Euron fall in a similar ruse - thinking he's doing his own 'I'll be king of Westeros' stuff but doing exactly what weirnet related factions want him to do? 

[Lord Wraith]

What?
Why?

 

Well Pate is an absolute failing in his training as a Maester and is now part of Marwyn's inner circle.   Pate is lowborn but uses the term obsidian in Sam's chapter.  Marwyn tells him the smallfolk uses the term dragonglass. The smallfolk call it dragonglass, which Pate is. 

 

Also Marwyn is a big fan of knowledge exchange like with MMD or the shadowbinders of Asshai.  He is now working with Jaquen, not sure to what end yet?

 

 

Not if you want a dragon, and learned that a Targ princess actually had dragons hatch out of petrified eggs. Since he has the warlocks, he knew about Dany having been able to hatch 3 dragons.

 

That and you have a faceless man in the Citadel likely trying to learn more about dragons with a magic loving Grand Maester.

[TheOne-EyedHound]

Nobody knows their true intent, but what they want us to believe is that they're no one. If they're truly no one they take the contract regardless of his motives.

There's also the possibility that Jaqen is the FM, and also the possibility that he went rogue. .

[sweetsunray]

Nobody knows their true intent, but what they want us to believe is that they're no one. If they're truly no one they take the contract regardless of his motives.

There's also the possibility that Jaqen is the FM, and also the possibility that he went rogue. .

 

And if he went rogue, why would he send Arya to the FM. In fact, he said he would take her with him to Braavos from HH.

[Roddy Darwin]

 

Well Pate is an absolute failing in his training as a Maester and is now part of Marwyn's inner circle.   Pate is lowborn but uses the term obsidian in Sam's chapter.  Marwyn tells him the smallfolk uses the term dragonglass. The smallfolk call it dragonglass, which Pate is. 

 

Also Marwyn is a big fan of knowledge exchange like with MMD or the shadowbinders of Asshai.  He is now working with Jaquen, not sure to what end yet?

 

 

 

Oh, I see where you're coming from.
I'm still not sure, though... For Marwyn to pick up on all that, he would have needed to have half a clue who Pate was before Jaqen took over. I highly doubt Marwyn would remember one random lowborn novice that's not particularly good at anything.

 

It seems pretty unlikely that Sarella wouldn't have noticed anything, though, I guess. And she could have told Marwyn, so that still makes you right: Marwyn knows.

 

What's interesting too, with what you pointed out, is that if Jaqen is doing whatever a typical FM does, they're not all that great at their own game, are they? Unless he knew Sarella would realize something's up, and he didn't care because as you say, he was planning on working with Marwyn anyway, then his impersonation is a pretty shitty one imo.

[Lord Wraith]

Oh, I see where you're coming from.
I'm still not sure, though... For Marwyn to pick up on all that, he would have needed to have half a clue who Pate was before Jaqen took over. I highly doubt Marwyn would remember one random lowborn novice that's not particularly good at anything.

 

It seems pretty unlikely that Sarella wouldn't have noticed anything, though, I guess. And she could have told Marwyn, so that still makes you right: Marwyn knows.

 

What's interesting too, with what you pointed out, is that if Jaqen is doing whatever a typical FM does, they're not all that great at their own game, are they? Unless he knew Sarella would realize something's up, and he didn't care because as you say, he was planning on working with Marwyn anyway, then his impersonation is a pretty shitty one imo.

 

The three students that work with Marwyn are Alleras, Leo Tyrell, and Pate. Alleras and Leo both knew Pate pre Alchemist and would see the change in him. 

 

Remember I think that Marwyn is working together with Jaquen he certainly has done knowledge exchanges in the past.  Marwyn travelled to Essos and beyond. Its not unbelievable that the FM would be aware of him and his pro magic stance.  

[sciteacher]

 

Well Pate is an absolute failing in his training as a Maester and is now part of Marwyn's inner circle.   Pate is lowborn but uses the term obsidian in Sam's chapter.  Marwyn tells him the smallfolk uses the term dragonglass. The smallfolk call it dragonglass, which Pate is. 

 

 

I can't find where Marwyn and Pate discuss obsidian. I did find this conversation:

 

A Feast for Crows - Prologue

Armen crossed his arms. "Obsidian does not burn."

"Dragonglass," Pate said. "The smallfolk call it dragonglass." Somehow that seemed important.

"They do," mused Alleras, the Sphinx, "and if there are dragons in the world again . . ."

 

[Lord Wraith]

 

 

I can't find where Marwyn and Pate discuss obsidian. I did find this conversation:

 

 

 

The candle was unpleasantly bright. There was something queer about it. The flame did not flicker, even when Archmaester Marwyn closed the door so hard that papers blew off a nearby table. The light did something strange to colors too. Whites were bright as fresh-fallen snow, yellow shone like gold, reds turned to flame, but the shadows were so black they looked like holes in the world. Sam found himself staring. The candle itself was three feet tall and slender as a sword, ridged and twisted, glittering black. "Is that . . . ?"

". . . obsidian," said the other man in the room, a pale, fleshy, pasty-faced young fellow with round shoulders, soft hands, close-set eyes, and food stains on his robes.

"Call it dragonglass." Archmaester Marwyn glanced at the candle for a moment. "It burns but is not consumed."

[aryagonnakill#2]

Jaqen also gives himself away by saying he is Pate like the pig boy, when we know he hates that story.  There is no evidence that Marwyn or Alleras know this tho.  I don't get the impression Leo will figure it out.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

 

Yup, he loves puzzles, but he aslo wants us to figure it out. The mystery to me isn't "did a FM do it?", but what was the price, did he really toss it overboard, what's in it for the FM beyond a dragon egg at the bottom of the sea?

 

I'm wondering whether they know he's got a dragonhorn (they must know, I'm sure), and what do they plan with Euron posessing a dragon? Kill the dragon and have only 2 dragons left in the known world? And is Euron truly the bad one? I find it suspicuous that Moqorro tries to win Vic for the red god's side and against Euron. And with Euron's eyepatch and him having seen every bit of the world supposedly he pretty much falls into a faction like Beric and BR. Beric and Thoros think they're doing Rh'llors work, but they don't burn people and pretty much work and cooperate with the weirnet forces. Does Euron fall in a similar ruse - thinking he's doing his own 'I'll be king of Westeros' stuff but doing exactly what weirnet related factions want him to do? 

I have this idea that the "dark eye" mentioned by Benarro (I think it was) is a reference to Euron.  He's definitely on the bad side.  He didn't make the cut for Bloodraven's Greenseer Training Academy.  Okay, technically that wouldn't mean he's a bad guy, but he does rather fit nicely into the villain category.  Will be interesting to see how that develops and what surprises GRRM has in store for us regarding King Euron.

 

I think Moqorro is going to burn Vic as a sacrifice.

 

Oh, and I consider BR to be on the side of good, but with a healthy amount of Machiavellian thinking.

[sweetsunray]

I have this idea that the "dark eye" mentioned by Benarro (I think it was) is a reference to Euron.  He's definitely on the bad side.  He didn't make the cut for Bloodraven's Greenseer Training Academy.  Okay, technically that wouldn't mean he's a bad guy, but he does rather fit nicely into the villain category.  Will be interesting to see how that develops and what surprises GRRM has in store for us regarding King Euron.

 

I think Moqorro is going to burn Vic as a sacrifice.

 

Oh, and I consider BR to be on the side of good, but with a healthy amount of Machiavellian thinking.

 

For me, BR, Beric + BwB by extension and Euron seem to act out as Odins. There's the Odin who sacrifices himself to a tree to stare into the well of knowledge and drinks mead of poetry for knowledge, uses 2 ravens to scout the world for news daily, and has 2 wolves by his side (Bran is one, and Arya with the FM imo is the other). This Odin is acted out by Greenseer BR. I say Arya is the second wolf of BR-Odin, because on her way to the HoBaW she passes a bridge with 1000 eyes, and the god is called God of Many Faces (and Many Names). Odin has 170 names, and at least 50 different disguises/faces. He is a god of death and actually called the god of many faces and names. Then there is Odin who resurrects, hangs people and talks to a dead resurrected seerress (GoHH) to know prophecy. This is what Beric/BwB and LS do. And finally there is the adventurous, world traveling, trickster Odin who boasts, baits other characters and amasses all sort of magical items for the final battle. This is Euron. If Euron takes the trickster, adventurous wolrd traveling part of Odin, then yes he falls in the ploys of the FM, BR and BwB, but he may not know it himself though. But I hope Moqorro does not succeed. 

[Lady Blizzardborn]

 

For me, BR, Beric + BwB by extension and Euron seem to act out as Odins. There's the Odin who sacrifices himself to a tree to stare into the well of knowledge and drinks mead of poetry for knowledge, uses 2 ravens to scout the world for news daily, and has 2 wolves by his side (Bran is one, and Arya with the FM imo is the other). This Odin is acted out by Greenseer BR. I say Arya is the second wolf of BR-Odin, because on her way to the HoBaW she passes a bridge with 1000 eyes, and the god is called God of Many Faces (and Many Names). Odin has 170 names, and at least 50 different disguises/faces. He is a god of death and actually called the god of many faces and names. Then there is Odin who resurrects, hangs people and talks to a dead resurrected seerress (GoHH) to know prophecy. This is what Beric/BwB and LS do. And finally there is the adventurous, world traveling, trickster Odin who boasts, baits other characters and amasses all sort of magical items for the final battle. This is Euron. If Euron takes the trickster, adventurous wolrd traveling part of Odin, then yes he falls in the ploys of the FM, BR and BwB, but he may not know it himself though. But I hope Moqorro does not succeed. 

I can see some definite inspiration from Norse myths in the series, especially what's going on with north of the Wall, but there are not going to be any exact parallels, just like GRRM doesn't use any exact parallels from history.  He'll mix things up to keep us guessing.  It's his way.

[TheOne-EyedHound]

 
And if he went rogue, why would he send Arya to the FM. In fact, he said he would take her with him to Braavos from HH.

Maybe, because Jaqen might, or might not care about Arya. He knows this girl is doomed to commit murders, and might think the best thing for her is to become no one and stop her impending crime spree.

He was suppose to go to Bravos, but to me it seems he never went. he still has the same face with a beard now. My thought is that Jaqen is The FM on TGoHH's dream. He killed Balon for Euron, Euron then gives him the Dragon Egg he said to have thrown in the ocean, and now is looking in the Citadel for Dragon books.

I might be wrong, but that's why I said "there's always the possibility."

[sweetsunray]

I can see some definite inspiration from Norse myths in the series, especially what's going on with north of the Wall, but there are not going to be any exact parallels, just like GRRM doesn't use any exact parallels from history.  He'll mix things up to keep us guessing.  It's his way.

 

Oh, I don't think there are exact parallels.. can't be if you have at least 3 characters representing Odin aspects. But GRRM has set Euron up as the "ooh, he's bad" while he has Moqorro and Vic set up as "they should get one over Euron, because Euron is 'bad'". I think that's a red herring ;)

[sweetsunray]

Maybe, because Jaqen might, or might not care about Arya. He knows this girl is doomed to commit murders, and might think the best thing for her is to become no one and stop her impending crime spree.

He was suppose to go to Bravos, but to me it seems he never went. he still has the same face with a beard now. My thought is that Jaqen is The FM on TGoHH's dream. He killed Balon for Euron, Euron then gives him the Dragon Egg he said to have thrown in the ocean, and now is looking in the Citadel for Dragon books.

I might be wrong, but that's why I said "there's always the possibility."

 

I'm not convinced it was Jaqen who killed Balon. Might have been another FM.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

 

Oh, I don't think there are exact parallels.. can't be if you have at least 3 characters representing Odin aspects. But GRRM has set Euron up as the "ooh, he's bad" while he has Moqorro and Vic set up as "they should get one over Euron, because Euron is 'bad'". I think that's a red herring ;)

Agreed.  I think Vic in particular will change his mind about Moqorro being good.  And I'm sure Euron is going to surprise us.

[spoon89]

I'm not convinced it was Jaqen who killed Balon. Might have been another FM.

 

I think we are seeing the actions of two faceless men, actually one faceless man and one faceless woman. Jaqen is the male, possibly on a long term reconnasiance mission in Westeros and may have altered it to find information about dragons. The female is "working" for Euron, she killed Balon and now sitting on Victorians ship (DW), while Euron thinks she is obeying his orders, she actually placing herself to gut Euron if he does get a dragon and threatens Braavos.

 

Braavos was founded by escaped slaves, I doubt that the FM and Iron Bank forget that the power of the Valyrian freehold was lynch pinned to dragons. With the return of dragons, I am sure they are interested in finding a way to control or destroy them.

[Lord Wraith]

 

I'm not convinced it was Jaqen who killed Balon. Might have been another FM.

 

Jaquen would have had to borrow Littlefingers TARDIS to pull that off.

 

 

Agreed.  I think Vic in particular will change his mind about Moqorro being good.  And I'm sure Euron is going to surprise us.

 

Morqorro could be a warlock in disguise. We know they can change their faces and that Euron captured several.

[spoon89]

Jaquen would have had to borrow Littlefingers TARDIS to pull that off.

 

 

Morqorro could be a warlock in disguise. We know they can change their faces and that Euron captured several.

 

Not really. Jaquen left Harrenhal in ACoK:Arya IX, and Balon was first reported dead in ASoS: Arya VIII, so he has a number of months he could make the journey in (which is why people theorize that he did it), but I don't think it was Jaquen that killed Balon.

 

Moqorro was picked up adrift on the pieces of the mast of Selaesori Qhoran, the same mast parts which Tyrion had said that Moqorro was lost with when the mast broke off in the storm during ADwD: Tyrion IX. So unless Moqorro has been an imposter since we met him in Volanis (ADwD: Tyrion VIII) I don't think he's an imposter.

 

"Your death is with us now, my lord. Give me your hand."

On my initial read I took this line by Moqorro speaking to Victorian to mean that the hand would end up killing Victorian. On a reread I have come to think that the Dusky Woman might be what/whom Moqorro is talking about. Victorian's statement about the nature of Euron's gifts being poison and her being a gift from him, coupled with the presence there.

 

If she were dropped off by Euron to kill Balon, then she could also get picked up by him when he arrived a few days later to take the throne, then later on he can send her off with Victorian as insurance against Victorian betraying him.

[Cladinator]

I NEVER picked up that Balon was killed by a Faceless Man hired by Euron. That shows how thick I am. 

 

Thanks for the posters that cleared that up and brought some textual evidence to the table. You learn something new everyday.