Why do people assume the FM are anti-slavery when they took a contract from Euron?

[Hank of House Hutton]

There is a theory that the FM work for the IB. But the IB are bankrolling Stannis in hopes of him repaying the IT's debt, whereas the FM took a contract from Euron who will be yet another obstacle to Stannis gaining the IT. It's possible that Euron will temporarily take the IT, in which case there's NO WAY he's paying the IT's debts. Your opinion?

Well Euron is sending Victorian with dragonbinder to Mereen to try and get the dragons. Euron does not seem like a dumb guy, i could see Euron tell them something about Dragonbinder and saying ill give you a dragon or something. we've seen the IB make deals based on the potential of things to come like with Stannis and Jon. could be possible Euron offered a dragon for if they have Balon killed for him.

[Wavey Sauce]

Well Euron is sending Victorian with dragonbinder to Mereen to try and get the dragons. Euron does not seem like a dumb guy, i could see Euron tell them something about Dragonbinder and saying ill give you a dragon or something. we've seen the IB make deals based on the potential of things to come like with Stannis and Jon. could be possible Euron offered a dragon for if they have Balon killed for him.

 

Euron is for sure sailing with a ton of ships right behind Vics though. He knows Vic will try and betray him, cause Vic is an idiot lol. Also the dusky woman on vics ship is for damn sure someone Euron put there. Euron knows every move Vic is going to try and do. He will make him do some dirty work and then swipe in and clean up. He is about 10000000000x smarter then Vic

[Lord Wraith]

 

Pate: I didn't say he was ONLY killed for that. He was first of all a means to an end, means to gain access into the citadel to do whatever needs to be done there. But it is noteworthy that he was only murdered after he became a thief for pure self-interest, and not before that. The alchemist could have killed Pate easily without that process of straying. And yet he never did. The result is that all the people we know to have been killed by an FM were not altruistic, innocent people. Had say LF asked the price for Ned Stark, which may actually have happened, it would have been so ridiculously high a price, LF would never have agreed to it. He wouldn't have gotten a hit on Ned Stark for the price of an axe thrown.

 

I have always felt Pate was the means to an end. First the key and second the face.

 

I think he hired a Faceless Man and payed with a Dragons Egg.

I refuse to believe he had nothing to do with Balons death.

 

All Euron wants is the Iron Fleet to go get Dany. Balon doesn't need to die for that to happen and there are far cheaper and easier ways to do it even if he did.

 

 

Yes, I'm with you.. a man without a face is not necessarily a faceless man.

 

The report to Robb of the captain of the Myraham cites a freak storm that blew the bridge to smithereens.. It came out of the west, suddenly, mirroring the tactics Euron later uses in his attacks. Euron has warlocks, who the men sailing under him credit with conjuring winds.. Euron says of himself, "I am the storm". Euron has himself taken enough shade of the evening to turn his lips blue.. has he become a warlock? or is he possibly a warlock wearing a Euron glamour? The undying wanted to draw strength from Dany (would she have become a shell?). They wanted her dragons..

 

There is certainly enough here to raise doubts about the GoHH's dream.

 

From the FM side of things.. My bet is that there will be at least a working relationship between the FM,the IB and the Sealord.. where matters affecting Braavos are concerned. Braavos is anti-slavery, no doubt. They will not allow ships carrying slave to enter their port, and have tried to stop other city-states from keeping / dealing in slaves.

 

And Braavos relies on trade. Reavers disrupt trade, steal wealth that might have been owed to the IB, randomly kill people who might be indebted to the IB, or allies of Braavos .. and they can't be trusted. I cannot see the advantage to the HoB&W in dealing with someone so antithetical to the interests of their mother state.

 

But, It's pretty obvious that elite FM can make "judgement" calls in the field.. I highly doubt Pate was an identified target before the Alchemist arrived in Oldtown.. and it seems pretty likely that the Alchemist is acting in the interests of Braavos. Assuming he's Jaqen, it's not clear that he would have had time to return to Braavos and then go to Oldtown.

 

The Alchemist would have had to do some classic FM observing beforehand..whose key would be easiest, and least disruptive to steal? Who would provide the most direct path to the key? and what would be the weakness of that person? (everyone has a weakness)

 

.. But obviously, he doesn't just need the key, he also needs to stay there and observe the workings of the Citadel.. Who's who ? What or who are they working for ? The way to do that is find the person who has access to the right places and people, but is themselves least noteworthy, least likely to arouse suspicions.. There's no moral judgement involved. 

 

ETA: Pate is accepted by those bright young things flocking to Marwyn, who has a glass candle burning, but he's a lightweight..a tag-along..it's only Sam he makes uncomfortable.

 

Having said all that, I don't think the FM are personally always immune to emotion. Remember the way Jaqen kissed Arya's hair... a tender and almost parental gesture.

 

I really like your thoughts on this. Euron did capture four Warlocks out of Qarth. Their magic is much easier than a Faceless Man. I feel its more likely that they are now working with Euron.

 

BTW Marwyn already knows Pate is a Faceless Man.

[bemused]

 Marwyn may know, indeed. If so, he doesn't appear to be worried about it.. and it really hasn't been stated, either way.

 

(But then, I'm not worried about it either.)

[Lord Wraith]

 Marwyn may know, indeed. If so, he doesn't appear to be worried about it.. and it really hasn't been stated, either way.

 

(But then, I'm not worried about it either.)

 

Agreed. I figured he was doing more of his foreign exchange like he did with MMD or the Shadowbinders of Asshai.  I have often wondered what was in that kettle.

[Roddy Darwin]

 

 

 

BTW Marwyn already knows Pate is a Faceless Man.

What?
Why?

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I don't think they did take a contract from Euron. There will be some other interpretation of "a man without a face".

Got any ideas as to what else "a man without a face could mean?"  Cause I'm drawing a blank on other options.

 

Can't be noseless Tyrion because he was nowhere near Pyke.

[hear me bore]

 
What would the FM want with a ship with a random ass crowd of people all of whom cant speak?

I think it's more about value to the person seeking to enter into a contract, not necessarily what it's worth objectively. Otherwise it would be impossible for a poor person to hire a FM.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I think it's more about value to the person seeking to enter into a contract, not necessarily what it's worth objectively. Otherwise it would be impossible for a poor person to hire a FM.

This is correct.  The Waif's father wasn't a rich man.  That's why he had to give up his daughter rather than cough up his life's savings (which were probably zero anyway).  It's based on the value to the person making the request. Thus DaddyWaif gave up his only treasure, his baby girl.

[sweetsunray]

This is correct.  The Waif's father wasn't a rich man.  That's why he had to give up his daughter rather than cough up his life's savings (which were probably zero anyway).  It's based on the value to the person making the request. Thus DaddyWaif gave up his only treasure, his baby girl.

 

Incorrect. The waif's stepmother attempted to kill her with poison so his heir would be out of the way. Why kill a child, if there's nothing to inherit?

 

It also was one of the better choices for a future life for his girl. The poison attempt made her into what she is - a woman locked in a child's body, unable to bear children. The likelihood of ever finding a husband for her would be small. Not able to bear children anymore, she's not a suitable heir anymore. Not to mention the ridicule she would endure in society for her stunted development. In that sense, giving up his daughter to the FM was an act of kindness to her. It might have been emotionally hard on the waif's father, but the father would have had every rationale to see it as one of the best options for his daughter's future. As for giving half his worldly possessions to the FM. The whole nasty business started with the stepmother trying to off his heir for the inheritance once he died. The father could have easily seen it as paying the inheritance to the FM to provide for his daughter for the rest of her life. He got to keep the other half for his other children by the stepmother.

[sweetsunray]

I think it's more about value to the person seeking to enter into a contract, not necessarily what it's worth objectively. Otherwise it would be impossible for a poor person to hire a FM.

 

Again I ask... What does Euron want the most - his ship Silence, or a dragon? It is the latter. Hence a dragon egg was what he valued the most.

[bemused]

Got any ideas as to what else "a man without a face could mean?"  Cause I'm drawing a blank on other options.

 

Can't be noseless Tyrion because he was nowhere near Pyke.

 

Not yet... I just suspect there's something wrong with it , because of the captain's report, etc ,stated in brief above, and it doesn't add up, logically (for me) that 1) Euron would deal with the FM when he apparently may have the means to accomplish the deed without them. or that 2) the FM would deal with someone so potentially destructive to their status quo.

 

ETA:.. and dreams are tricky to interpret ... and GRRM loves puzzles. :)

[bemused]

 

Incorrect. The waif's stepmother attempted to kill her with poison so his heir would be out of the way. Why kill a child, if there's nothing to inherit?

 

It also was one of the better choices for a future life for his girl. The poison attempt made her into what she is - a woman locked in a child's body, unable to bear children. The likelihood of ever finding a husband for her would be small. Not able to bear children anymore, she's not a suitable heir anymore. Not to mention the ridicule she would endure in society for her stunted development. In that sense, giving up his daughter to the FM was an act of kindness to her. It might have been emotionally hard on the waif's father, but the father would have had every rationale to see it as one of the best options for his daughter's future. As for giving half his worldly possessions to the FM. The whole nasty business started with the stepmother trying to off his heir for the inheritance once he died. The father could have easily seen it as paying the inheritance to the FM to provide for his daughter for the rest of her life. He got to keep the other half for his other children by the stepmother.

 

I think this is right.. besides, we don't know that the waif was not privy to his decision to go the the FM, or that he wouldn't have given her the option to express her wishes before agreeing to the price... He may not have known that anything was really wrong until puberty did not arrive.. and still did not arrive... She may have been offered many other options, as Arya is, later.

[aryagonnakill#2]

Bemused, You mention that Euron is basically against what Bravos stands for and I would agree but I think your missing the fact that Euron cannot be compared to other peaceful folks, he has to be compared to Balon.  In terms of Balon vs Euron, how much worse is Euron really?  He may be a bit smarter, but in terms of goals and what they stand for they are basically the same, so the FM weren't just bringing the evil of Euron into the world, they were replacing 1 evil with another while eliminating the potential of 1 of those evils getting a dragon.

[bemused]

aryagonnakill#2 ...

 

Yes, I agree that what you say about Euron vs. Balon may be entirely possible (I have thought about it).. but something is still missing for me .. I still can't see why Euron would pay the price (or any price but the iron price) when he appears to have other means of killing Balon.

 

The FM may know enough to ask themselves - if he has the egg, has the horn, has warlocks (even if he hides them , his blue lips must arouse suspicion).. then why hasn't the egg been hatched already..??

[aryagonnakill#2]

^Just because he doesn't know how to hatch the egg now, doesn't mean he won't ever figure out how.

 

The problem with killing Balon is that in order for Euron to be able to take the throne, people can't know he killed Balon, and I would argue that people couldn't even know Balon was murdered at all if Euron intended on showing up the next day.  I know Iron islanders are not the smartest but come on.  So while Euron may be able to kill Balon, I don't think he had the ability to kill him in such a flawless way.

[A-Faceless-Woman]

aryagonnakill#2 ...

 

Yes, I agree that what you say about Euron vs. Balon may be entirely possible (I have thought about it).. but something is still missing for me .. I still can't see why Euron would pay the price (or any price but the iron price) when he appears to have other means of killing Balon.

 

The FM may know enough to ask themselves - if he has the egg, has the horn, has warlocks (even if he hides them , his blue lips must arouse suspicion).. then why hasn't the egg been hatched already..??

 

The point of hiring a FM for murdering someone is to make the death look accidental. As aryagonnakill#2 points out, Euron wouldn't be able to replace Balon if people knew he killed him. 

Now, Euron needed to replace Balon in order to achieve his "king of the world" desire. He could apparently sacrifice the egg, and find another way of getting a dragon: through Dany. 

 

As to the egg, I'm guessing hatching an dragon egg is not that easy, even if you have horns and warlocks. No one exactly knows how to do it. So the FM would probably not be surprised or ask themselves why the egg hasn't been hatched yet. 

[hear me bore]

 
Again I ask... What does Euron want the most - his ship Silence, or a dragon? It is the latter. Hence a dragon egg was what he valued the most.

The choice is not between Silence and a dragon, it's between Silence and a dragon egg. Big difference. The egg at that point has only monetary worth.

[sweetsunray]

The choice is not between Silence and a dragon, it's between Silence and a dragon egg. Big difference. The egg at that point has only monetary worth.

 

Not if you want a dragon, and learned that a Targ princess actually had dragons hatch out of petrified eggs. Since he has the warlocks, he knew about Dany having been able to hatch 3 dragons.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

 

Incorrect. The waif's stepmother attempted to kill her with poison so his heir would be out of the way. Why kill a child, if there's nothing to inherit?

 

It also was one of the better choices for a future life for his girl. The poison attempt made her into what she is - a woman locked in a child's body, unable to bear children. The likelihood of ever finding a husband for her would be small. Not able to bear children anymore, she's not a suitable heir anymore. Not to mention the ridicule she would endure in society for her stunted development. In that sense, giving up his daughter to the FM was an act of kindness to her. It might have been emotionally hard on the waif's father, but the father would have had every rationale to see it as one of the best options for his daughter's future. As for giving half his worldly possessions to the FM. The whole nasty business started with the stepmother trying to off his heir for the inheritance once he died. The father could have easily seen it as paying the inheritance to the FM to provide for his daughter for the rest of her life. He got to keep the other half for his other children by the stepmother.

Thank you for correcting me on that.  I really need to get on that re-read.

 

 

 

Not yet... I just suspect there's something wrong with it , because of the captain's report, etc ,stated in brief above, and it doesn't add up, logically (for me) that 1) Euron would deal with the FM when he apparently may have the means to accomplish the deed without them. or that 2) the FM would deal with someone so potentially destructive to their status quo.

 

ETA:.. and dreams are tricky to interpret ... and GRRM loves puzzles. :)

Euron needed Balon out of the way via a method that leaves no proof that he was behind it.  That means his options are assassins who won't tell, or do it himself and hope nobody witnesses it.

 

The FM don't need to worry about Euron disrupting anything.  As long as he stays away from Braavos they're fine.  And if he messes with them, they have the means to take him out.

 

Dreams are not always tricky to interpret.  But I am looking forward to an interpretation of a man without a face that doesn't include a Faceless Man. Because I still can't think of one, and if you've seen my theories you know I have a very active imagination. ;) Sometimes the obvious is obvious for a reason.  I may have to start referring to this as Occam's Assassin. 

 

Yes, he does indeed love puzzles.