Heresy 175

[Mother of Dragons]

When I suggested that violence connected the dead in Theon's dream, I wasn't trying to debunk the idea that Lyanna gave birth. Just because she had a baby, doesn't mean she didn't die violently, as well.

I'm guessing her manner of death is similar to what Theon saw, except that Rickard and Brandon's fates weren't detailed like the others.

The white gown is interesting. Not sure what it symbolizes. The Kingsgaurd, maybe. I think there is imagery of red and white in Ned's fever dream, but I'm not going to look it up right now.

As for Jon, good catch- no, he's not there, either, and we know now that if the NW did kill him, it would be a violent way to go.

Also wondering why those people appear to Theon. Lyanna, Brandon, Rickard wouldn't have met Theon nor have any connection to him. I wonder if some of their ghosts aren't in the crypts. I don't think Rickard and Brandon are. Rickard, at least, was burned. Brandon the shipbuilder/shipwright has a statue, but he was lost at sea. Maybe Lyanna wasn't buried in WF- or she was, but her spirit can roam free because she doesn't have an iron sword.

The statues of Rickard and Brandon do, but if they aren't buried there, their remains wouldn't be warded. As for Ned, I don't know if his bones ever made it to WF.

[Lady Dyanna]

When I suggested that violence connected the dead in Theon's dream, I wasn't trying to debunk the idea that Lyanna gave birth. Just because she had a baby, doesn't mean she didn't die violently, as well.

I'm guessing her manner of death is similar to what Theon saw, except that Rickard and Brandon's fates weren't detailed like the others.

The white gown is interesting. Not sure what it symbolizes. The Kingsgaurd, maybe. I think there is imagery of red and white in Ned's fever dream, but I'm not going to look it up right now.

As for Jon, good catch- no, he's not there, either, and we know now that if the NW did kill him, it would be a violent way to go.

Also wondering why those people appear to Theon. Lyanna, Brandon, Rickard wouldn't have met Theon nor have any connection to him. I wonder if some of their ghosts aren't in the crypts. I don't think Rickard and Brandon are. Rickard, at least, was burned. Brandon the shipbuilder/shipwright has a statue, but he was lost at sea. Maybe Lyanna wasn't buried in WF- or she was, but her spirit can roam free because she doesn't have an iron sword.

The statues of Rickard and Brandon do, but if they aren't buried there, their remains wouldn't be warded. As for Ned, I don't know if his bones ever made it to WF.

I'm not sure if Jon would show up or not as his death is still pretty far in the future at that point, whereas a case could be made, if I'm remembering correctly that is, that Theon's dream is occurring not far off from the time of the RW.

As for Rickard and Brandon's swords, don't forget that Bran and the Scooby Gang took those two with them when they fled the crypts. Can't remember the timing of the dream exactly, but they might have already removed them to use as weapons.

[Bran the Bringer]

Speaking of the removal of the Iron swords in the crypts and what that may mean

I haven't seen, although I may well have missed, any discussion on the poses of the Kings (and other) in the crypts of Winterfell.

A sword across ones lap is an act of a lord denying guest right. Every King we have seen down there has a sword across his lap, or used to anyways. Do you all feel this has any significance and if so what?

[Mother of Dragons]

I'm not sure if Jon would show up or not as his death is still pretty far in the future at that point, whereas a case could be made, if I'm remembering correctly that is, that Theon's dream is occurring not far off from the time of the RW.
As for Rickard and Brandon's swords, don't forget that Bran and the Scooby Gang took those two with them when they fled the crypts. Can't remember the timing of the dream exactly, but they might have already removed them to use as weapons.

The dream I think is when Asha has arrived and asked him to leave WF.

But my attention is back on Qhorin Halfhand and the ringfort again :) . Just realized what a fountain of knowledge this man is. He selects Jon because "he is favored by the old gods" (I think because of his Stark blood), he actively listens about Jon's dream, and knows it's a wolf dream before Jon does. He sends Stonesnake to Mormont to warn him that the old powers have awoken, and it seems he, Benjen, and Mormont knew about these things and spoke of them, despite the fact that Benjen made the jest about the Others to Jon on the way to the Wall.

I marked some of his more telling quotes, I need to read them together more closely, and I'm disappointed he's dead now.

Here's an idea: if the Others are the old gods, and they favor the Starks, maybe Benjen was spared for that reason. Could be why CHs was helping, and maybe Qhorin knew Jon would be safe because of that. Only, we know the wights chased Bran, but we don't know if he'd of been killed or maybe just captured.

Or maybe my imagination is running wild...

[Lord Ravenstark]

Just a crackpot… something something that nails on my head and never goes away.

She did not want to sit. "You are still angry with me. I hear it in your voice. Forgive me, Uncle. It was wrong of me to throw wine at you, but—"

"You think I care about a cup of wine? Lancel is my son, Cersei. Your own nephew. If I am angry with you, that is the cause. You should have looked after him, guided him, found him a likely girl if a good family. Instead you—"

"I know. I know." Lancel wanted me more than I ever wanted him. He still does, I will wager. "I was alone, weak. Please. Uncle. Oh, Uncle. It is so good to see your face, your sweet sweet face. I have done wicked things, I know, but I could not bear for you to hate me." She threw her arms around him, kissed his cheek. "Forgive me. Forgive me."

How can she be Lancel's aunt. Don tell me Kevan is time traveling Tywin's son… or Cersei is actually Tywin's sister. It simply doesn't add up.

[Lady Dyanna]

The dream I think is when Asha has arrived and asked him to leave WF.

But my attention is back on Qhorin Halfhand and the ringfort again :) . Just realized what a fountain of knowledge this man is. He selects Jon because "he is favored by the old gods" (I think because of his Stark blood), he actively listens about Jon's dream, and knows it's a wolf dream before Jon does. He sends Stonesnake to Mormont to warn him that the old powers have awoken, and it seems he, Benjen, and Mormont knew about these things and spoke of them, despite the fact that Benjen made the jest about the Others to Jon on the way to the Wall.

I marked some of his more telling quotes, I need to read them together more closely, and I'm disappointed he's dead now.

Here's an idea: if the Others are the old gods, and they favor the Starks, maybe Benjen was spared for that reason. Could be why CHs was helping, and maybe Qhorin knew Jon would be safe because of that. Only, we know the wights chased Bran, but we don't know if he'd of been killed or maybe just captured.

Or maybe my imagination is running wild...

Or, my own personal favorite cracked pots. The others ARE the Starks. Or at least the spirits of the dead ones...

[Mother of Dragons]

"I know. I know." Lancel wanted me more than I ever wanted him. He still does, I will wager. "I was alone, weak. Please. Uncle. Oh, Uncle. It is so good to see your face, your sweet sweet face. I have done wicked things, I know, but I could not bear for you to hate me." She threw her arms around him, kissed his cheek. "Forgive me. Forgive me."
How can she be Lancel's aunt. Don tell me Kevan is time traveling Tywin's son… or Cersei is actually Tywin's sister. It simply doesn't add up.

I don't like to believe GRRM makes mistakes, but I suspect you might have caught one. She calls Kevan uncle, above, and Tyrion calls Lancel cousin when he gets him to spy on Cersei for him.

[Lady Dyanna]

Just a crackpot… something something that nails on my head and never goes away.

She did not want to sit. "You are still angry with me. I hear it in your voice. Forgive me, Uncle. It was wrong of me to throw wine at you, but—"

"You think I care about a cup of wine? Lancel is my son, Cersei. Your own nephew. If I am angry with you, that is the cause. You should have looked after him, guided him, found him a likely girl if a good family. Instead you—"

"I know. I know." Lancel wanted me more than I ever wanted him. He still does, I will wager. "I was alone, weak. Please. Uncle. Oh, Uncle. It is so good to see your face, your sweet sweet face. I have done wicked things, I know, but I could not bear for you to hate me." She threw her arms around him, kissed his cheek. "Forgive me. Forgive me."

How can she be Lancel's aunt. Don tell me Kevan is time traveling Tywin's son… or Cersei is actually Tywin's sister. It simply doesn't add up.

I think it's just meant as a term of endearment and respect since Cersei is so much older than Lancel.

[Lady Dyanna]

Ok. Just so you all don't think I'm some crazy stalker psycho... Every time I try to check a thread on my phone via tapatalk it keeps taking me into one of the previous posters profiles. It's driving me crazy! Just didn't want anyone paranoid that I'd been to their profiles like ten times in a week. Ugh.

[wolfmaid7]

Lyanna's white gown was splattered with blood. This could happen in postpartum hemorrhage that still kills a lot of women these days. A quick google search show a case in the UK a couple of years ago when a new mother died in hospital after losing 5 litres of blood ( a normal person has around 5 litres in their body)

An interesting and gory detail is that it can happen up to 6 weeks after childbirth.

I doubt this on account of the emphasis in Theon's dream i think GRRM is subtly trying to show how she died, in literature " spattered with gore" usually is accompanied with the death of a soldier in battle.I've seen alot of Post partum hemorrhage in the field its still the leading cause maternal mortality around the world.

 

Fever doesn't accompany it though,severe loss of blood usually results in your temp plummeting as you go into Hypovolemic shock.

 

Given Ned's description of Lyanna's state she most likely was suffering from bacterial sepsis. A wound got infected.

[addicted to snow]

He not being Coldhands doesn't mean he is alive, but also doesn't means we have his body. So we can't tell he is dead, either.

In AGOTs Benjin said [paraphrase]: "Oh, there you are Jon... I was afraid that the Others had taken you."

 

I take this as being foreshadowing of what would later happen to Benjin... The Others got him...

 

--

In the next book, Ghost/Jon will find Benjin in the Heart of Winter...

 

Lots of additional foreshadowing to support this as well...

[addicted to snow]

Ok. Just so you all don't think I'm some crazy stalker psycho... Every time I try to check a thread on my phone via tapatalk it keeps taking me into one of the previous posters profiles. It's driving me crazy! Just didn't want anyone paranoid that I'd been to their profiles like ten times in a week. Ugh.

 

I've been stalking Wolfmaid7 & TBC for years now & they have yet to take note, so you are probably safe...

[wolfmaid7]

 

I've been stalking Wolfmaid7 & TBC for years now & they have yet to take note, so you are probably safe...

Now i know.

[Mother of Dragons]

 
--
In the next book, Ghost/Jon will find Benjin in the Heart of Winter...
 
Lots of additional foreshadowing to support this as well...

Which part? I asked you before and you didn't tell me. I'm not saying I don't believe you, I just didn't catch the foreshadowing. Not the first part where Benjen tells Jon he thought the Others go him, but the second part about Jon and Ghost finding him.

[Sly Wren]

Just a crackpot… something something that nails on my head and never goes away.

She did not want to sit. "You are still angry with me. I hear it in your voice. Forgive me, Uncle. It was wrong of me to throw wine at you, but—"

"You think I care about a cup of wine? Lancel is my son, Cersei. Your own nephew. If I am angry with you, that is the cause. You should have looked after him, guided him, found him a likely girl if a good family. Instead you—"

"I know. I know." Lancel wanted me more than I ever wanted him. He still does, I will wager. "I was alone, weak. Please. Uncle. Oh, Uncle. It is so good to see your face, your sweet sweet face. I have done wicked things, I know, but I could not bear for you to hate me." She threw her arms around him, kissed his cheek. "Forgive me. Forgive me."

How can she be Lancel's aunt. Don tell me Kevan is time traveling Tywin's son… or Cersei is actually Tywin's sister. It simply doesn't add up.

Only thing I can think of at present is the medieval usage of family terms' being less precise than current usage. IE: any relative could be called "cousin"--aunts, uncles, in-laws. Am thinking maybe nephew works the same way--younger cousin, so "nephew." Maybe.

[Sly Wren]

I doubt this on account of the emphasis in Theon's dream i think GRRM is subtly trying to show how she died, in literature " spattered with gore" usually is accompanied with the death of a soldier in battle.I've seen alot of Post partum hemorrhage in the field its still the leading cause maternal mortality around the world.

 

Fever doesn't accompany it though,severe loss of blood usually results in your temp plummeting as you go into Hypovolemic shock.

 

Given Ned's description of Lyanna's state she most likely was suffering from bacterial sepsis. A wound got infected.

I agree postpartum hemorrhage doesn't fit blood/gore spatter. But I don't think Theon's dream gives us enough to determine that Lyanna died from a violent wound. 

 

Nothing I can see makes it clear that Theon's dream is anything more than a dream.

 

Some of the details are off--Robb isn't missing his own head, let alone sporting Grey Wind's.

 

And Lyanna shows no signs of a wound. Seems like he's seeing an embodiment of what he knows of her. She was crowned Queen of love and Beauty. What should have been happy was ruined by a war--so her white dress is spattered by the gore of that war.

 

It seems like the dream is Theon's guilt at betraying all Starks. And even the Starks he had nothing to do with. So, without other evidence of Lyanna's dying in a fight or something, really think text is not giving us enough info to determine that she died from a wound vs. childbirth. 

[Sly Wren]

The dream I think is when Asha has arrived and asked him to leave WF.

But my attention is back on Qhorin Halfhand and the ringfort again :) . Just realized what a fountain of knowledge this man is. He selects Jon because "he is favored by the old gods" (I think because of his Stark blood), he actively listens about Jon's dream, and knows it's a wolf dream before Jon does. He sends Stonesnake to Mormont to warn him that the old powers have awoken, and it seems he, Benjen, and Mormont knew about these things and spoke of them, despite the fact that Benjen made the jest about the Others to Jon on the way to the Wall.

I marked some of his more telling quotes, I need to read them together more closely, and I'm disappointed he's dead now.

Here's an idea: if the Others are the old gods, and they favor the Starks, maybe Benjen was spared for that reason. Could be why CHs was helping, and maybe Qhorin knew Jon would be safe because of that. Only, we know the wights chased Bran, but we don't know if he'd of been killed or maybe just captured.

Or maybe my imagination is running wild...

Or maybe Benjen was taken for that reason. If he's simply spared, seems like he'd have shown up by now. Unless he got really lost. 

 

Which, if going off of your idea that the old gods favor Starks, wondering if Quorin wanted Jon for another purpose entirely. Or maybe I'm just being ridiculous.

[Mother of Dragons]

Or maybe Benjen was taken for that reason. If he's simply spared, seems like he'd have shown up by now. Unless he got really lost. 
 
Which, if going off of your idea that the old gods favor Starks, wondering if Quorin wanted Jon for another purpose entirely. Or maybe I'm just being ridiculous.

Yes, I meant Benjen wasn't killed by the Others, but probably abducted.

As for Qhorin, I think he mentioned Jon's lineage twice- the second time he refers to it as the blood of Winterfell, which I found odd vs calling him Stark. Maybe Qhorin knew something, maybe Benjen knows the truth about Jon. He would serve as a vehicle to tell Jon if he shows up later.

Also, in the NW vow, something I wondered about when Qhorin and Jon say it together one last time, is the line about being "the horn that wakes the sleepers". Qhorin told Stonesnake to let Mormont know the old powers have awoken. I wonder if the horn in the vows is supposed to be Joramund. Wouldn't it be something if the NW had it all this time?

[wolfmaid7]

I agree postpartum hemorrhage doesn't fit blood/gore spatter. But I don't think Theon's dream gives us enough to determine that Lyanna died from a violent wound. 

 

Nothing I can see makes it clear that Theon's dream is anything more than a dream.

 

Some of the details are off--Robb isn't missing his own head, let alone sporting Grey Wind's.

 

And Lyanna shows no signs of a wound. Seems like he's seeing an embodiment of what he knows of her. She was crowned Queen of love and Beauty. What should have been happy was ruined by a war--so her white dress is spattered by the gore of that war.

 

It seems like the dream is Theon's guilt at betraying all Starks. And even the Starks he had nothing to do with. So, without other evidence of Lyanna's dying in a fight or something, really think text is not giving us enough info to determine that she died from a wound vs. childbirth. 

This may very well be.Or maybe depending on where on the dress, the wounds weren't visible.Or it could simply be "war killed her". I also  disagree that this was a guilt ridden dream and it was about him betraying the Starks in general. I think its connected in a way to Jon's dream where he hear's a feast going on but he's separated from them.These two are connected,not yet complete but connected.The fact that their were people there with no connection to Theon leads me to say not really about the guilt.

 

 Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place.Jon" 

 

“I don’t even dream of Ghost anymore. All my dreams are of the crypts, of the stone kings on their thrones. Sometimes, I hear Robb’s voice, and my father’s, as if they’re at a feast. But there’s a wall between us, and I know that no place has been set for me.Jon”

 

That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell.Theon 

I also disagree with the red bolded remember Robb and did not die from a beheading nor did Grey wind.They were beheaded after.The below per Theon's dream and per what happened according to Clash is accurate.

 

"Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds."

[Sly Wren]

This may very well be.Or maybe depending on where on the dress, the wounds weren't visible.Or it could simply be "war killed her". I also  disagree that this was a guilt ridden dream and it was about him betraying the Starks in general. I think its connected in a way to Jon's dream where he hear's a feast going on but he's separated from them.These two are connected,not yet complete but connected.The fact that their were people there with no connection to Theon leads me to say not really about the guilt.

 

 Up above he heard drums. They are feasting in the Great Hall, but I am not welcome there. I am no Stark, and this is not my place.Jon" 

 

“I don’t even dream of Ghost anymore. All my dreams are of the crypts, of the stone kings on their thrones. Sometimes, I hear Robb’s voice, and my father’s, as if they’re at a feast. But there’s a wall between us, and I know that no place has been set for me.Jon”

 

That night he dreamed of the feast Ned Stark had thrown when King Robert came to Winterfell.Theon 

I also disagree with the red bolded remember Robb and did not die from a beheading nor did Grey wind.They were beheaded after.The below per Theon's dream and per what happened according to Clash is accurate.

 

"Grey Wind stalked beside, eyes burning, and man and wolf alike bled from half a hundred savage wounds."

You're right re: the beheadings. Was just thinking that if Theon was really thinking about the violence, that element would haunt his dreams. But his dream suggests that he feels guilt over Grey Wind, too. Which is interesting.

 

But still think this is primarily about guilt vs. vision. Yes, both Theon and Jon dream about a feast. Theon's is more specific than Jon's. But Theon's dream being about the Robert feast makes sense. That's when everything started to go to hell.  At that feast, Theon, not Jon, was seated with the family. He was one of the "Starks" for all intents and purposes. But now he has betrayed them--all of them. He even sacked their ancestral home. So, all coming in, horrible. All died connected to violence (including Lyanna via the war). And some of them dies via a violence he brought into Winterfell. Really think that's the core of the dream.

 

Whereas Jon in his dreams isn't relegated to a non-family table. He's out all together. Even though he is one of them. And he has this dream multiple times. And needs to go to the crypts--and shouting that he doesn't belong, even though he's been in them before. Really think that's more of a portent--something's under Winterfell. Go find it. Vs. Theon's guilt.