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HelenaExMachina

R+L=J v.151

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I do think we're supposed to note the comment--Ned hasn't thought about Rhaegar in years? Why on earth not?


I'm just editing the part of my R+L=J essay that deals with the brothel scene, so let me give you this as it's easily to hand:
 

Suddenly, uncomfortably, he found himself recalling Rhaegar Targaryen.

 

For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen.

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On the issue of Selmy:

I think a lot of the fandom didn't like, or want to accept Selmy's information, so they wrote him off in order to create their own narrative.

And given that much of it is his own inner monologue, he is his own audience, what is he proving in lying to himself?
As a work of fiction, Martin's writing of this is deliberate.

I'll grant that that they May have been conflicted. I'll speculate even that Lyanna may have pushed him away, but I think the very detailed analogy on "mud" and the point he was trying to make may have also applied to Rhaegar and the fact that he should have "chose"Elia the way Dany should have chose Elias nephew instead of the dangerous choices.

On Rhaegars last words, Martin confirmed it was Lyanna.


The app says that Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips.

- Martin didn't write the app. Ran did.
- We have no idea if Ran asked Martin about Rhaegar's last words or just wrote what he thought them to be
- We have no idea if Ran asked Martin if Rhaegar's last words were Lyanna, or whether the vision of Rhaegar in the HOTU had Rhaegar's last words be Lyanna.

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I do think we're supposed to note the comment--Ned hasn't thought about Rhaegar in years? Why on earth not? 
 
But I agree that the comment is so brief it's hard to extrapolate much. Plus, the context is all about the messes Robert has made. Ned's cut up by Barra's mother asking him to please tell the king she's waiting for him. Annoyed at Littlefinger's comments about Robert's bastards. And speculation on why Arryn was poking around. About why/how Arryn died. Ned seems to be thinking about the mess Robert has made of things. I've thought that might be a possible way to read the line--Ned's so done at this point he's thinking, "not even Rhaegar would be as stupid as Robert." 
 
And, given that Ned hasn't been thinking about Rhaegar with any degree of frequency or regularity (why on earth not?), really think this is more about his disillusionment re: Robert than a praise of Rhaegar. Saying Rhaegar was better than Robert in one way at this moment in Ned's head seems like very faint praise.


Agreed. And while many will say that Ned gave Rhaegar a glowing endorsement regarding the brothels, he doesn't really do the same in these

Robert could be merciful. Ser Barristan was scarcely the only man he had pardoned. Grand Maester Pycelle, Varys the Spider, Lord Balon Greyjoy; each had been counted an enemy to Robert once, and each had been welcomed into friendship and allowed to retain honors and office for a pledge of fealty. So long as a man was brave and honest, Robert would treat him with all the honor and respect due a valiant enemy.
This was something else: poison in the dark, a knife thrust to the soul. This he could never forgive, no more than he had forgiven Rhaegar. He will kill them all, Ned realized.

This was the boy he had grown up with, he thought; this was the Robert Baratheon he'd known and loved. If he could prove that the Lannisters were behind the attack on Bran, prove that they had murdered Jon Arryn, this man would listen. Then Cersei would fall, and the Kingslayer with her, and if Lord Tywin dared to rouse the west, Robert would smash him as he had smashed Rhaegar Targaryen on the Trident. He could see it all so clearly.

"Your Grace, I never knew you to fear Rhaegar." Ned fought to keep the scorn out of his voice, and failed. "Have the years so unmanned you that you tremble at the shadow of an unborn child?"


Ned understands Robert's hate for Rhaegar as Rhaegar having acted dishonestly and not brave, he says Robert smashed Rhaegar at the Trident, and he brings up how unfearworthy Rhaegar was to spite Robert over being afraid of some baby across the world.

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:agree:

I agree. All the info we've gotten re: Rhaegar and Lyanna is not from those who seem like they might have known. Or who give evidence of knowledge. And those who would be in a position to know are either dead or missing. So these accounts need to be taken with a big grain of salt.

 

But I do think the lack of alternate narrative is also telling--Dany's learning about alternate versions of the history Viserys gave her. Arya's learned there's a bit of Stark family history in Dorne of all places, info that Jon has yearned for. And info that disturbs Arya. Martin not only shows us gaps and unreliability of history--he provides some alternatives.

 

But for a story that is seen as one of the excuses for a huge rebellion--no alternatives have come forth. The gaps are HUGE re: what exactly happened and why. And no one seems to suspect a child (which is odd). But there's also no hint at an alternative history.

 

Granted, this is hardly an iron-clad argument. Again, all the people who might know about an alternative are dead or missing. And it's completely possible that Martin is letting the gaps serve as his pointer that an alternative narrative re: Rhaegar and Lyanna is possible. The gaps are certainly big enough. And people like to romanticize about tragedy--R+L gives plenty of romance to the tragedy. But still--no alternative in the collective consciousness of Westeros? About such a big war? Seems a bit odd.

 

I think it was pertinent to the aftermath that this version of events be the case.It made what was clearly a rebellion more palatable.Look at the era in which these people are living in.

 

What makes a better song and story.

 

Anti-Targ version.

 

Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna.Robert started a rebellion to get her back.

 

Pro Targ version

 

Rhaegar died for the woman he loved after running off with her.

 

The truth

 

Niether of these things happened ,but the truth really wouldn't make a good song for the singers.

 

On the issue of Selmy:

I think a lot of the fandom didn't like, or want to accept Selmy's information, so they wrote him off in order to create their own narrative.

And given that much of it is his own inner monologue, he is his own audience, what is he proving in lying to himself?
As a work of fiction, Martin's writing of this is deliberate.

I'll grant that that they May have been conflicted. I'll speculate even that Lyanna may have pushed him away, but I think the very detailed analogy on "mud" and the point he was trying to make may have also applied to Rhaegar and the fact that he should have "chose"Elia the way Dany should have chose Elias nephew instead of the dangerous choices.

On Rhaegars last words, Martin confirmed it was Lyanna.

I think this is a generally unfair statement. I don't know about the fandom.I know what the texts says,implies and infers......Selmy had no inside/intimate knowledge because there is none to tell. Martin is dealing with among other things 'perception' and the conclusions people draw based on what they think they see and know and he's doing that also with his fans.Or should i say most of the fandom has fallen into the same trap as the characters in the story.

 

And what is happening in a lot of cases is people seeing what they want to see which makes them blind to the evidence.No matter how unpleasent,or how much one may not want a case to be the evidence is the evidence and one should not superimpose ones will on it.

 

The truth is the truth is the truth and no one in this tale who knew Rhaegar can give a quote,statement anything from Rhaegar regarding Lyanna.They all,everyone of them made their conclusions regarding Rhaegar's feeling based on (2) things .Him crowning Lyanna QOLAB and the belief that he ran off with her.

 

So its not a matter atleast not for me about dismissing Selmy's statement.I don't ,i see it for what it is.It's is a plot point that also represents how people think and arrive at conclusions in this world-Limited info cloaked in romanticism.The song of life is not pretty and its not ugly it's both.

 

Sometimes the heroe's father isn't a dashing Prince who everyone fell over,but a womanizing drunk with a temper.

 

ETA: Where did Martin confirm it was Lyanna?Do you have a link for that?

 

Agreed. And while many will say that Ned gave Rhaegar a glowing endorsement regarding the brothels, he doesn't really do the same in these


Ned understands Robert's hate for Rhaegar as Rhaegar having acted dishonestly and not brave, he says Robert smashed Rhaegar at the Trident, and he brings up how unfearworthy Rhaegar was to spite Robert over being afraid of some baby across the world.

The sad thing though is Ned actually didn't give an endorsement of Rhaegar he actually insulted him.This quote is yet another one that the fandom took out of context.This is a bit from my essay.It actually has nothing to do with proving who Jon's father is but i just wanted to bring up something concerning Ned's thinking on Rhaegar.

 

“Ned was soaked through to the bone, and his soul had grown cold. “It had to be more than that, or why kill him (Jon Arryn)?"<Snip>. (LF):"Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced. Small wonder. Allow a man like that to live, and next he's like to blurt out that the sun rises in the east. “There was no answer Ned Stark could give to that but a frown. For the first time in years, he found himself remembering Rhaegar Targaryen. He wondered if Rhaegar had frequented brothels; somehow he thought not.(AGOT,Ned Chpt 35)”

 

 

What is this actually saying? 

 

Allow a man like that to live! What kind of man? A man who would blab about something he found out. That is what prompted Ned’s thought of Rhaegar because he (Rhaegar) did the same blasted thing. He spilled the beans about something.

 

The frequenting brothels thought by Ned had nothing to do with Rhaegar’s morals in that department. It’s in the context of Rhaegar having loose lips, what type of man he was and him possibly spilling info to a whore in an establishment such as LF’s.

 

Ned dismissed this scenario could happen on the grounds that Rhaegar wasn’t the type to visit brothels-so no chance of someone like LF knowing what Rhaegar could divulge to a whore.

 

This paragraph reveals two things

 

1. Rhaegar revealed something he shouldn't have.Again that is what prompted Ned to think of him.

 

2.Secondly,if you read the entire brothel chapter from top to bottom in context then RLJ has another problem.To which i will ask what type of man did Ned think Rhaegar was and does the man he thinks Rheagar was  then apply to the below?

 

 

"She had smiled then, a smile so tremulous and sweet that it cut the heart out of him. Riding through the rainy night, Ned saw Jon Snow's face in front of him, so like a younger version of his own. If the gods frowned so on bastards, he thought dully, why did they fill men with such lusts? "Lord Baelish, what do you know of Robert's bastards?"

 

 

Edit: To add final thoughts and fix typos.

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SFDanny,

 

while I'm not entirely sure what Lyanna was afraid when she died, a good guess is that she was indeed afraid for the future well-being of her child (context matters there, and we still lack important pieces of the puzzle). But I don't think we have any reason to assume that she was especially afraid that Robert may harm it, rather a more general fear that nobody would care for or raise/protect it. Lyanna would have to have a telepathic link to Robert or have a deep insight into his mind and emotional state after the abduction - which she both most likely did not have.

 

If Lyanna and Rhaegar were married, and if Lyanna feared to revealing his identity to the world would get the child into danger, then it is very likely that she would have asked Ned to raise it as his own bastard. But that makes only sense if they were married, and if Lyanna did not want a certain fate/way of life for her son (say, trying to win the Iron Throne, or something like that). It may actually be that she was at odds there with the knights and that led to the whole fight (the theory that the fight took place only after Ned's conversation with Lyanna).

 

I agree that Robert certainly felt about as strongly about his humiliation at the hands of Rhaegar as Lord Lyonel felt during the whole Jenny affair. However, Lyanna wouldn't have been privy to any or much of that. And the idea that she believed he would hurt any child of her in the process of restoring his honor/avenging his pride is a little bit far-fetched. If Yandel is right then pretty much nobody realized how Robert felt about the coronation thing at Harrenhal since he was able to brush it off as a joke. It is not very likely Lyanna had the means to check on Robert's feeling after she was taken by Rhaegar.

 

If George had made Robert himself a murderer of children during the war I could see this pathological Targaryen hatred. But the man actually has a Targaryen grandmother, and only killed one Targaryen during the war - the one he actually grew to hate. I don't think Robert himself had murdered Rhaenys or Aegon (and certainly not Elia) if he had captured them. The man simply didn't have something like that in him, especially not back then when he had won his throne. Fifteen years later he has realized how a fucked-up king he actually is, and how much a threat Viserys, Daenerys, and Drogo could become if they ever invaded Westeros. The memory of Rhaegar and Lyanna as well as the dynastic threat Viserys and Daenerys pose is constantly nagging at him, and that leads him to command their murder. The man who won the crown would never have done that.

 

I don't think we can assume that Ned thinks that Jon is a bastard. Else he would never have used the phrase 'a boy with a bastard's name' when talking to Catelyn.

 

As to the marriage:

 

My guess is simply that Rhaegar took Lyanna and then married her publicly at a castle where controlled by his friends/Targaryen loyalists (Harrenhal or Maidenpool spring to mind). Afterwards, it was Aerys' reaction to this - perhaps he was calling for Rhaegar and Lyanna's heads - that forced Rhaegar and Lyanna underground. That way we get the much-needed explanation as to why the hell Rhaegar and Lyanna didn't do anything to stop the war or try to make peace after the Starks were arrested and executed. My guess is that Aerys - stuck in his Harrenhal mindset - continued to believe that Brandon and Rickard were conspiring with Rhaegar against him, and thus had to die in Rhaegar's place. Only later on, when Aerys realized that Robert, Jon Arryn, and Ned were a serious threat to the Targaryen rule he changed his mind, and perhaps understood that Rhaegar was never actually plotting against him.

 

If George wants to keep the marriage a secret - which he obviously does - then he cannot possibly give us the reason why Rhaegar and Lyanna 'run away' since that is an integral part to the marriage story. Telling us that Rhaegar had to hide/flee from his father may be too big a clue at this point in the story. It is very odd that TWoIaF did give us lot of new information on events leading up the abduction but effectively nothing on the event itself, nor on the events that followed immediately thereafter and eventually resulted in the deaths of Brandon and Rickard. There is a lot of stuff yet missing there, and the missing pieces there should be very important.

 

And depending on the depth of Aerys' madness and paranoia a child by Lyanna would have been the last thing that would have brought Rhaegar back into his father's good graces. Neither would it have been his behavior - causing a major crisis and then ignoring the fallout for months.

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The app says that Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips.

- Martin didn't write the app. Ran did.
- We have no idea if Ran asked Martin about Rhaegar's last words or just wrote what he thought them to be
- We have no idea if Ran asked Martin if Rhaegar's last words were Lyanna, or whether the vision of Rhaegar in the HOTU had Rhaegar's last words be Lyanna.

I would trust the app/ The World of Ice and Fire over anything a forum member would say.

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I'm just editing the part of my R+L=J essay that deals with the brothel scene, so let me give you this as it's easily to hand:
 
 

1. Very interested to read your essay.

 

2. Yeah--I usually read that line in the brothel in concert with the lines you quoted. It seems like there's two ways (at least) to go. Either A: Ned is habitually unaware of how often he thinks of Rhaegar and thus gets surprised. Or B: He hasn't been thinking about Rhaegar since the events in the novel begin. So when R comes into his head now that he's in King's Landing, he's surprised. Multiple times.

 

Either way--it seems odd. But given Ned's ability to compartmentalize, seems like he may just have let R go and focused on the present. Now he has to face it all again in King's Landing--while seeing what a mess Robert's made of the rebellion they fought--Ned can't compartmentalize anymore. 

 

But I do think we as readers are supposed to notice that Ned is surprised by his thoughts re: Rhaegar. Multiple times. 

 

Agreed. And while many will say that Ned gave Rhaegar a glowing endorsement regarding the brothels, he doesn't really do the same in these

Ned understands Robert's hate for Rhaegar as Rhaegar having acted dishonestly and not brave, he says Robert smashed Rhaegar at the Trident, and he brings up how unfearworthy Rhaegar was to spite Robert over being afraid of some baby across the world.

Agreed. I find it hard to find evidence of Ned's positive thoughts about Rhaegar. Which is understandable, even if (hypothetical scenario time) Lyanna did manage to forgive/love Rhaegar. Can fully understand why Ned's opinion might not improve.

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I think it was pertinent to the aftermath that this version of events be the case.It made what was clearly a rebellion more palatable.Look at the era in which these people are living in.

 

What makes a better song and story.

 

Anti-Targ version.

 

Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna.Robert started a rebellion to get her back.

 

Pro Targ version

 

Rhaegar died for the woman he loved after running off with her.

 

The truth

 

Niether of these things happened ,but the truth really wouldn't make a good song for the singers.

Agree that the collective memory is tied to how people want to think of the rebellion. But that doesn't mean the event didn't happen at all. Something happened. And, according to all accounts given, R and L disappeared together.

 

Martin loves to play with history and memory--but so far he's given us doubt and alternatives for a number of key stories. With R and L, he gives plenty of doubts, but all of the alternatives involve R and L. I'm not arguing this is rock solid. Just that it seems odd--at least for now.

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What is this actually saying? 
 
Allow a man like that to live! What kind of man? A man who would blab about something he found out. That is what prompted Ned’s thought of Rhaegar because he (Rhaegar) did the same blasted thing. He spilled the beans about something.
 
The frequenting brothels thought by Ned had nothing to do with Rhaegar’s morals in that department. It’s in the context of Rhaegar having loose lips, what type of man he was and him possibly spilling info to a whore in an establishment such as LF’s.


I agree with you that Ned isn't making a moral judgement about Rhaegar, but I'm struggling with this interpretation. Nobody's talking about blabbing in a brothel, they're talking about blabbing ABOUT a brothel. "Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced." Littlefinger is talking sarcastically, mocking the notion that Arryn would be killed for revealing that Robert has bastards. Nobody cares, just like nobody cares if someone reveals "that the sun rises in the east." We all know already.

The scenario of Rhaegar divulging something to a whore just has no context here, brothel-attendee or not. Nobody divulged anything to a whore. Ned has no answer to Littlefinger, because Littlefinger is right. There's no secret here, in Robert's brothel visits. Certainly nothing worth killing Jon Arryn for. The secret worth killing him for is not found in the brothel at all, but in the palace.

In short, there is no secret that is revealed that should not have been revealed here, that's the entire point. So how can it relate to Rhaegar revealing (or retaining) a secret that he should not have revealed?
 

2.Secondly,if you read the entire brothel chapter from top to bottom in context then RLJ has another problem.To which i will ask what type of man did Ned think Rhaegar was and does the man he thinks Rheagar was  then apply to the below?


A man can be filled with lusts and not go to brothels. One simply does not imply the other at all. A man can be filled with hunger, but not be the kind of man who frequents burger bars. You could hate burgers and still have a big appetite. You can be hungry vegetarian. You can be filled with lust but find the concept of brothels distasteful. Ned dismisses the idea that Rhaegar would visit brothels. He does not dismiss the idea that Rhaegar might be filled with the kind of lusts that lead them to father bastards.

What you should be asking is this: If Ned does not associate Rhaegar with brothels, what is there here that brings Rhaegar to mind? Revealing secrets that are no secret, like the sun rising in the east? I think we can dismiss that one. What else is on Ned's mind during that scene?

Royal bastards. 
 

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Agree that the collective memory is tied to how people want to think of the rebellion. But that doesn't mean the event didn't happen at all. Something happened. And, according to all accounts given, R and L disappeared together.

 

Martin loves to play with history and memory--but so far he's given us doubt and alternatives for a number of key stories. With R and L, he gives plenty of doubts, but all of the alternatives involve R and L. I'm not arguing this is rock solid. Just that it seems odd--at least for now.

 Two things...First not really according to all accounts Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna that different from the running off together. The reasons "he" ran off 'with' her as in he took her varies depending on who you asked.

 

1.He was unhappy with Elia....One of the reasons given

2. Somebody hurt him and he needed healing the other.

3.He had no honor.

 

Lastly, for clarification what alternatives and to what are you speaking?

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I would trust the app/ The World of Ice and Fire over anything a forum member would say.


Why would you ever trust something without knowing the source of it? Because that's the app. We have no idea what parts are information from George, what questions Ran asked George, what parts are Ran writing what he thinks happened based on having read the books, etc. The app isn't a transcribed conversation from George or written by him. You have no idea what's George and what's Ran.

When I see that Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips, I can't look at it and honestly say that this is trustworthy information. And neither should anybody being honest with themselves. It might be true, but there's no proof it is beyond "Ran consulted with George over lunch and asked him questions". Which doesn't prove at all that that specific piece of information is true and came from Geroge. You should be asking yourself

- did George actually say this?
- did Ran speculate this?
- what question did Ran ask if George did say this?
- did Ran write down George's exact words?
- did George review this piece of information that Ran wrote?
- etc.

Because if Ran asked say, "Dany sees a vision of Rhaegar murmuring a woman's name as he dies. Was that woman's name Lyanna?" to which George replies "Yes", and we get the app saying that Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips, then we have some problems as

- Martin answered that in the vision Rhaegar said Lyanna's name
- Ran wrote that Rhaegar died in real life saying Lyanna's name

So I hope you see how hard it is to actually trust anything said in the app that wasn't in the books. The app might be right in this situation, but there's no way of knowing that until George either writes it in a book or says it somewhere verifiable.

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 Two things...First not really according to all accounts Rhaegar ran off with Lyanna that different from the running off together. The reasons "he" ran off 'with' her as in he took her varies depending on who you asked.

 

1.He was unhappy with Elia....One of the reasons given

2. Somebody hurt him and he needed healing the other.

3.He had no honor.

 

Lastly, for clarification what alternatives and to what are you speaking?

The ones you listed.

 

I actually meant what you just said--every account/possibility I can think of in the books involves either they ran off together or R took L.

 

Reasons: the ones you gave. Some readers theorize that since L was unhappy with her betrothal to Robert she might have asked Rhaegar for help. Other readers theories, too.

 

My only point: can't think of any alternative history re: L's "disappearance" than "R" was involved. No one in the novels questions some sort of "relationship" between them. 

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I agree with you that Ned isn't making a moral judgement about Rhaegar, but I'm struggling with this interpretation. Nobody's talking about blabbing in a brothel, they're talking about blabbing ABOUT a brothel. "Now I see. Lord Arryn learned that His Grace had filled the bellies of some whores and fishwives, and for that he had to be silenced."

 

Littlefinger is talking sarcastically, mocking the notion that Arryn would be killed for revealing that Robert has bastards. Nobody cares, just like nobody cares if someone reveals "that the sun rises in the east." We all know already.

The scenario of Rhaegar divulging something to a whore just has no context here, brothel-attendee or not. Nobody divulged anything to a whore. Ned has no answer to Littlefinger, because Littlefinger is right. There's no secret here, in Robert's brothel visits. Certainly nothing worth killing Jon Arryn for. The secret worth killing him for is not found in the brothel at all, but in the palace.

In short, there is no secret that is revealed that should not have been revealed here, that's the entire point. So how can it relate to Rhaegar revealing (or retaining) a secret that he should not have revealed?
 


A man can be filled with lusts and not go to brothels. One simply does not imply the other at all. A man can be filled with hunger, but not be the kind of man who frequents burger bars. You could hate burgers and still have a big appetite. You can be hungry vegetarian. You can be filled with lust but find the concept of brothels distasteful. Ned dismisses the idea that Rhaegar would visit brothels. He does not dismiss the idea that Rhaegar might be filled with the kind of lusts that lead them to father bastards.

What you should be asking is this: If Ned does not associate Rhaegar with brothels, what is there here that brings Rhaegar to mind? Revealing secrets that are no secret, like the sun rising in the east? I think we can dismiss that one. What else is on Ned's mind during that scene?

Royal bastards. 
 

Your missing "the" point i'm making.....What sarcastic remark did LF make  that prompted Ned thinking about Rhaegar?

 

Answer that and i'll explain a little further.

 

 

Edit: I actually agree with your assessment its no secret Robert fathered lots of bastards the man had super sperm and no punani was safe..............and THAT is the point.

 

Now depending on the "circumastances" Robert's bastards becomes a big deal,won't you say?

 

The blue highlighted cleverly  IS the answer. It funny and unfortunate at the same time. Its all about perception.Things are right in front of our eyes and yet we do not see.

 

 

Case in point: You married a "professional woman" everyone knows that your wife was a "PW"  big deal she serviced men  no secret there.We are hanging out at a party and your'e trying to feed your wife a hot dog and i say " come on you knw you've had plenty bigger." How's that going to go down? 

 

But to add Robert fathering bastards "shouldn't be a big deal.............But there is a secret there and it is a big deal the only person who  doesn't know it at the time was Ned. LF knew that Cersie's children aren't Roberts.

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The ones you listed.

 

I actually meant what you just said--every account/possibility I can think of in the books involves either they ran off together or R took L.

 

Reasons: the ones you gave. Some readers theorize that since L was unhappy with her betrothal to Robert she might have asked Rhaegar for help. Other readers theories, too.

 

My only point: can't think of any alternative history re: L's "disappearance" than "R" was involved. No one in the novels questions some sort of "relationship" between them

But their not describing a relationship "between" them everything is onesided,viewed only from what Rhaegar might have felt.

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The app says that Rhaegar died with Lyanna's name on his lips.

- Martin didn't write the app. Ran did.
- We have no idea if Ran asked Martin about Rhaegar's last words or just wrote what he thought them to be
- We have no idea if Ran asked Martin if Rhaegar's last words were Lyanna, or whether the vision of Rhaegar in the HOTU had Rhaegar's last words be Lyanna.

 

Okay, can you explain how he came by that information, because I don't think he made it up, and Martin has not corrected it.

 

This is the problem with people who have a problem with the app., (particularly if it contradicts a theory). Why don't you ask Ran, I think he is open to questions.

 

Also, it should be remembered that Martin actually didn't have to confirm, or even answer. He could have said,"keep reading."

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while I'm not entirely sure what Lyanna was afraid when she died, a good guess is that she was indeed afraid for the future well-being of her child (context matters there, and we still lack important pieces of the puzzle). But I don't think we have any reason to assume that she was especially afraid that Robert may harm it, rather a more general fear that nobody would care for or raise/protect it. Lyanna would have to have a telepathic link to Robert or have a deep insight into his mind and emotional state after the abduction - which she both most likely did not have.

 

Maybe she was afraid of Lannisters? Ned said that he would sooner entrust a child to a pit viper than to Tywin and he probably thought the same about telling the world (Tywin) that Jon is a secret Targ.

 

 

Anti-Targ version.

 

Rhaegar kidnapped and raped Lyanna.Robert started a rebellion to get her back.

 

Pro Targ version

 

Rhaegar died for the woman he loved after running off with her.

 

The truth

 

Niether of these things happened ,but the truth really wouldn't make a good song for the singers.

And not only wouldn't made into a good song, it also wouldn't make a lot of sense to outsiders. Outsiders knew that Rhaegar gave flowers to Lyanna and they heard that he kidnapped her. The 'logical' conclusion is that he raped her/they fell in love. GRRM also made clear that Rhaegar was not particularly talkative and that he didn't trust Selmy.

Singers/Selmy thought that there was something romantic going on and Rhaegar didn't bother to correct them. HR is late to the story exactly because he knows the truth. R+L is an obvious conclusion to outsiders in Westeros.

 

GRRM said that the truth about Rhaegar and Lyanna is elusive and then he said that we still don't know what exactly happened between Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings and Bill Clinton and Paula Jones. Maybe something happens, maybe nothing happened. GRRM said how at least one or two readers had put together the extremely subtle and obscure clues that he'd planted in the books and came to the right solution. And not how a lot of readers put together obvious clues to came to the right solution. He hates predictable fiction, he wants to surprise readers and he wants to take us into a directions we didn't see coming. Red wedding was foreshadowed, but in a very subtle way, same with Jon Arryn mystery murder. We can't say the same for R+L=J.

 

He was thinking about changing some things when he found books forums. Why would he think that he has to change some things when he knew in advance readers will find out about R+L=J? It took him more effort to conceal the truth about Jon Arryn then to hide R+L=J. And Jon Arryn mystery murder is less important than Jon's parentage. But fans figured out R+L=J immediately, but Jon Arryn revelation  was a surprise. I agree that we have a lot of clues pointing towards R+L=J, but maybe GRRM always planned to drop most of the clues for the real parentage in later books. If it turns out that Robert was a father or Arthur Dayne or XYZ we won't be able to pretend it came form thin air. 

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Maybe she was afraid of Lannisters? Ned said that he would sooner entrust a child to a pit viper than to Tywin and he probably thought the same about telling the world (Tywin) that Jon is a secret Targ.

 

 

And not only wouldn't made into a good song, it also wouldn't make a lot of sense to outsiders. Outsiders knew that Rhaegar gave flowers to Lyanna and they heard that he kidnapped her. The 'logical' conclusion is that he raped her/they fell in love. GRRM also made clear that Rhaegar was not particularly talkative and that he didn't trust Selmy.

Singers/Selmy thought that there was something romantic going on and Rhaegar didn't bother to correct them. HR is late to the story exactly because he knows the truth. R+L is an obvious conclusion to outsiders in Westeros.

 

GRRM said that the truth about Rhaegar and Lyanna is elusive and then he said that we still don't know what exactly happened between Thomas Jefferson and Sally Hemings and Bill Clinton and Paula Jones. Maybe something happens, maybe nothing happened. GRRM said how at least one or two readers had put together the extremely subtle and obscure clues that he'd planted in the books and came to the right solution. And not how a lot of readers put together obvious clues to came to the right solution. He hates predictable fiction, he wants to surprise readers and he wants to take us into a directions we didn't see coming. Red wedding was foreshadowed, but in a very subtle way, same with Jon Arryn mystery murder. We can't say the same for R+L=J.

 

He was thinking about changing some things when he found books forums. Why would he think that he has to change some things when he knew in advance readers will find out about R+L=J? It took him more effort to conceal the truth about Jon Arryn then to hide R+L=J. And Jon Arryn mystery murder is less important than Jon's parentage. But fans figured out R+L=J immediately, but Jon Arryn revelation  was a surprise. I agree that we have a lot of clues pointing towards R+L=J, but maybe GRRM always planned to drop most of the clues for the real parentage in later books. If it turns out that Robert was a father or Arthur Dayne or XYZ we won't be able to pretend it came form thin air. 

And he has planted clues,very obscure and subtle but they are there In the text ,under reader bias against Robert,under the story cooked up.... the drunking womanizer who Jon was so disappointed in especially after Ned talked up Robert to him.....Its genius. Rhaegar was the perfect scapegoat after the crap on the fan settled.He was perfect because dead men tell no tales.

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Your missing "the" point i'm making.....What sarcastic remark did LF make  that prompted Ned thinking about Rhaegar?


None. "There was no answer Ned could give to that but a frown". Ned knows there has to be something more to Arryn's death, something else that he was killed for, that Ned has not yet discovered. The brothel was a dead end. After having left the brothel, Ned & co are mulling over what they learned there, and when Littlefinger points out that there was nothing at the brothel to tell Ned why Jon was killed, Ned's mind turns to other aspects of his day's experience. 
 

Now depending on the "circumastances" Robert's bastards becomes a big deal,won't you say?

 

The big deal was Cersei's bastards, not Robert's. Robert's bastards were the sun rising in the east. Now there is a small exception to this. Cersei is jealous, and she's rumoured to have had Robert's bastards at Casterly Rock killed. That's not a danger to the person revealing the secret though, only to the bastards themselves.  

Let's hear your reading though. What is this secret-that-isn't-a-secret that Rhaegar didn't reveal to a whore?

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I fully admit to being part of the fandom.

 

But I can't see how doubting Selmy's ability to have direct knowledge of his statements in any way undermines the possibility the Rhaegar is Jon's father.

 

Can't see where in the text it says Selmy knows anything re: Rhaegar and Lyanna's disappearance from his own first-hand knowledge. Rhaegar and Co. disappear. Then war. When Rhaegar gets back to King's Landing, he mentions nothing re: Lyanna to Jaime--but that's not all that surprising. Then R goes to the Trident. Then R gets dead. Maybe R and Selmy had a heart to heart before the Trident, but the text doesn't tell us that. Does tell us Selmy thinks Rhaegar never confided in him as R did to Arthur.

 

Text does tell us Selmy knew Rhaegar gave the crown to Lyanna. And that Selmy thought Rhaegar was a good guy. And that he thought Rhaegar was "fond" of Elia (tactful, but opens things up).

 

Makes sense that Selmy would put all of that together with the accusation that R took L (evidence of accusation in the first place to be determined) and assume Rhaegar loved Lyanna. And it's a completely reasonable conclusion. But doesn't imply Selmy had direct knowledge. Or that he's right.

 

Without Selmy's giving the readers his direct evidence, seems like there's a reasonable reason to doubt that he's right. At least for now. 

 

Sorry, I was bouncing around in a car trying to post.

 

I think Selmys credibility is critical to what we can gather in terms of clues to the nature of Lyanna and Rhaegar as Jons parents

 

Selmy has been pretty straight-forward with Dany about her family as much as he can, be clearly, the text is such you can see he is still holding back a lot of information.

 

I speculate that Rhaegar trusted Selmy a great deal- to a point.  I think he understood that Selmy would never be part of whatever he was doing becaus of his rigidity regarding his role as KG. You see him giving somewhat of a veiled criticism of the "secrets of the Red Keep," and the secrets of Rhaegar. And while he still respected Rhaegar, he was also, at least privately, somewhat critical of him regarding his choices and Daynes part in them.

 

I don't think he actually knows about Jon, and probably just put the TOJ  out of his mind, perhaps not wanting to know or look any deeper, but conversely, not knowing about Jon specifically doesn't negate him from knowing the rest.

 

 But in term of his textual function, I think its pretty clear he is one of the last live voices of past events who knew all the characters. You also see his own memories more or less in line with what others remember, i.e., Elias delicate health, Rhaegars "fondness" for her and Danys own reaction to that word when she asked Selmy whether her brother married for love.

She knew EXACTLY what he meant- Rhaegar did not marry for love and as nice as he might have been, it seems pretty clear to everyone.

His experiences fall in line with Kevan and Cersei Lannister, JonCon, and even Viserys. And when you look back Jorahs tourney story aligns with what Selmy remembers They all just express it differently but in the same context, and the way Martin brings all the seperate pieces together is very clever.

 

Selmys ruminations on the past loves of the Targaryens and lumping Rhaegar and Lyanna into that group is another peace of the clue, and we see that what Rhaegar did was motivated by love, as well as other factors and falls completely in line with Martins own stated reasons for why he writes: "conflicts of the heart."

 

 

 

" I've alI have always agreed with William Faulkner. He said the human heart in conflict with itself is the only thing worth writing about. I have always taken that as my guiding principle, and the rest is just set dressing. I mean, you can have a dragon, you can have a science fiction story set on a distant planet with aliens and starships, you can have a western about a gunslinger, or a mystery novel about a private eye, or even literary fiction- and ultimately you're still writing about the human heart in conflict with itself. So that's the the way I try to approach this this thing.  And while I've worked within a genre, I've never liked to be bound by them. " George R. Martin, The Atlantic interiviewed by Rachael Brown, July 2011.

 

And the fact that Selmys first true love is himself and his honor postitions him to be the last person to have a dog in this fight other than to stand back, cluck his tongue and talk about how Rhaegar should have followed the rules.

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None. "There was no answer Ned could give to that but a frown". Ned knows there has to be something more to Arryn's death, something else that he was killed for, that Ned has not yet discovered. The brothel was a dead end. After having left the brothel, Ned & co are mulling over what they learned there, and when Littlefinger points out that there was nothing at the brothel to tell Ned why Jon was killed, Ned's mind turns to other aspects of his day's experience. 
 

 

The big deal was Cersei's bastards, not Robert's. Robert's bastards were the sun rising in the east. Now there is a small exception to this. Cersei is jealous, and she's rumoured to have had Robert's bastards at Casterly Rock killed. That's not a danger to the person revealing the secret though, only to the bastards themselves.  

Let's hear your reading though. What is this secret-that-isn't-a-secret that Rhaegar didn't reveal to a whore?

Nothing prompted Ned thinking about Rhaegar?????He just came into Ned's mind out the blue?

 

How about somebody (Rhaegar) making a bigger deal (production)  about something that shouldn't be a big deal.....

 

 

or me in that hypo situation making a production about something we all know and shaming your wife.Me being witty then at your wife's expense.

 

That last bit i think i explained.It's no difference than if i go to a whore house and just talk about your wife and you happen to be a Noble man.I would be a blabber mouth.Which is the context that percipitated Ned thinking about Rhaegar and to reiterate the parallel

 

Robert having bastards is no secret (hint) and they are seemingly insignificant unless a situation arisies or existed where those insignificant bastards become more relevant.

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