How certain are we that all of Cersei's children are products of incest?

[BlackFyre > BlackFire]

Because all children fathered by Robert and his family have the distinguishing baratheon traits

yup...that was the whole point of Ned's investigation and the whole "the seed is strong" thing.

[ShelbySmythe]

I agree that they are Jaime's children. The OP probably does not remember all the evidence of this, which others are helpfully pointing out.

The rest of this is bollocks. "Fandom" is probably right. There probably ARE quite a few twists and turns to come, and GRRM probably is trying to fool us or surprise us in various ways. Sure, the vast majority of people who try to guess at these twists will probably guess badly or guess wrong. But the knee-jerk reaction to this - to try to make a rule against people trying to make theories or anticipate twists or question assumptions - is utterly silly. There is nothing wrong with asking questions, and questioning assumptions.

 

I'm not against people who like to ask questions and question assumptions, and I'm certainly aware of the fact that many twists and turns are yet to come, but questioning something that is specifically used as a main catalyst for the story seems a tad rudimentary. It's like saying, "Oh, but Tyrion was the Mad King's son after all." It undermines the story GRRM was trying to tell between Tywin and his son. All I'm saying is that Martin is only trying to tell a story, not trying to trick people every chance he gets. Just because a novel has a multitude of twists doesn't mean it is automatically a good novel.

[Castellan]

Well you'd have to dismiss Westeros' unreal fantasy world genetics and the validity of the book that Eddard consults, and also it is not something you can ever know, an alternative stud book is not going to suddenly be found in TWOW.

 

Someone asked this question once before and it annoyed me but I answered eventually the only possibility would be Joffrey because it seems from my reading of the text that from the wedding ceremony until that time on Green Shite Island Cersei had been faithful, because when Jaime offers to kill Robert she says 'No, I want you to make him a cuckold' i.e. he's not a cuckold yet, and she believes Joffrey was conceived then. She presumably didn't have a  policy of avoiding conception with Robert at any cost immediately after the wedding, its more like she was affronted and hardened her attitude. So, it is possible she was already pregnant from Robert when she slept with Jaime. There could also have been a period of overlap which she has put out of her mind because of wishful thinking that the child is Jaime's. Of course she could have good reason for thinking so based on the timing of sex with each of them and her periods.

 

Joffrey's great height for his age is mentioned a couple of times and Robert is certainly taller than Jaime but I think all that stuff about his appearance is just to emphasise that Joffrey is sort of a hollow shell - beautiful, advanced exterior and a shrivelled undeveloped personality within.

[Rippounet]

I'm not against people who like to ask questions and question assumptions, and I'm certainly aware of the fact that many twists and turns are yet to come, but questioning something that is specifically used as a main catalyst for the story seems a tad rudimentary. It's like saying, "Oh, but Tyrion was the Mad King's son after all." It undermines the story GRRM was trying to tell between Tywin and his son. All I'm saying is that Martin is only trying to tell a story, not trying to trick people every chance he gets. Just because a novel has a multitude of twists doesn't mean it is automatically a good novel.

You're using a bad example. If Tyrion turns out not to be Tywin's son, then you're the one who will have to reconsider their relationship based on this "new" information. You don't get to eliminate the possibility of a reveal because it doesn't suit your reading of the story.

 

Martin uses a number of different devices to surprise: plot twists, mysteries, and misdirections. The first two are easy enough to discuss. The third one... Well, no one can agree on how much should be questioned. We know there will be revelations in the next books, and not just R+L=J. It's extremely likely that some elements we have are actually wrong. I tend to think that all elements which have a single source (a single character) should be questioned. This isn't the case here (with Cersei's children), but that still leaves tons of things which can be re-examined critically.

 

 

[Liz Stark-Targaryen]

The underlying assumption of this thread is that being "nice and normal" is evidence for not being the product of incest. 

 

We have many in-universe examples of people who were perfectly moral and good products of incest throughout the Targaryen dynasty. It's a weird quirk of the ASOIAF fandom that "the gods flip a coin" chances of Targ madness has somehow become the truism All Targs Are Mad Because Incest.

 

Tommen and Myrcella are the nice, sweet, and kind children of the Lannister twins Cersei and Jaime. Period.

[ShelbySmythe]

You're using a bad example. If Tyrion turns out not to be Tywin's son, then you're the one who will have to reconsider their relationship based on this "new" information. You don't get to eliminate the possibility of a reveal because it doesn't suit your reading of the story.

 

Martin uses a number of different devices to surprise: plot twists, mysteries, and misdirections. The first two are easy enough to discuss. The third one... Well, no one can agree on how much should be questioned. We know there will be revelations in the next books, and not just R+L=J. It's extremely likely that some elements we have are actually wrong. I tend to think that all elements which have a single source (a single character) should be questioned. This isn't the case here (with Cersei's children), but that still leaves tons of things which can be re-examined critically.

 

 

 

I agree that I haven't got the right to say what is and what isn't. The point I was originally trying to get across was that sometimes GRRM means the things he writes, rather than constantly deceiving the audience. His element of surprise is what makes his story one of the best, but the twists at least have some sort of structure, rather than revealing something for the sake of tricking the readers. The Red Wedding for example. Robb's betrayal of the Freys, Bolton's animosity towards the Starks, and the north's overall campaign failing were good story-driven reasons for the Red Wedding. Roose Bolton being a skin-stealing immortal just because he is forty with no wrinkles isn't a particularly good reason to reveal such ridiculousness. The same with Euron being Daario, Vary's being a merman, and Tyrion being a secret Targ. There is no indication than any of these are true other than a few sentences here and there that can be twisted into making the readers believe in things that aren't consistent with the story.

[Colton Casados-Medve]

The underlying assumption of this thread is that being "nice and normal" is evidence for not being the product of incest. 

 

We have many in-universe examples of people who were perfectly moral and good products of incest throughout the Targaryen dynasty. It's a weird quirk of the ASOIAF fandom that "the gods flip a coin" chances of Targ madness has somehow become the truism All Targs Are Mad Because Incest.

 

Tommen and Myrcella are the nice, sweet, and kind children of the Lannister twins Cersei and Jaime. Period.

 

That's not an underlying assumption. I offered it as one singular idea, among the others. 

 

To the rest of you... 

 

The purpose wasn't to ask if it would make sense for GRRM to reveal that some of Cirsei's children are legitimate, but that can we ever know for sure that they aren't? We have Cirsei's overtly wishful thinking telling us yes, but the realities of the story telling us that it could be otherwise. 

 

I actually tend to lean on the side that, we can't really know for sure, so everyone's claims to the throne were weak from the beginning:

 

1. Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella may or may not be Robert's children, so their claim is weak. 

2. Stannis doesn't know for sure, he's just trusting hair color (essentially) so his claim is weak.

3. Renly's claim is weak because even if #1 is true, Stannis has the more rightful claim. 

 

Etc, etc. 

[falcotron]

I actually tend to lean on the side that, we can't really know for sure, so everyone's claims to the throne were weak from the beginning:
 
1. Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella may or may not be Robert's children, so their claim is weak. 
2. Stannis doesn't know for sure, he's just trusting hair color (essentially) so his claim is weak.
3. Renly's claim is weak because even if #1 is true, Stannis has the more rightful claim. 
 
Etc, etc.

Sure. And Aegon, Dany, Jon, etc. I think making us realize how weak everyone's claim is (and how many claims there are) was a clever way to make us question the whole concept of "the rightful king". Which GRRM reinforced with things like the Hornwood succession, the multiple issues in TPaTQ and TRP, and so on.¹

But the twincest babies' claim is even weaker if they're definitely not Robert's children. And, whether or not we know the truth has no bearing on whether they know the truth. In fact, we know they're bastards, but the only one of them who seems to have even heard and thought about the rumors (and that's all they are, since Jon and Ned never shared their evidence, and Stannis doesn't really have any evidence to share) is Joffrey,² and he seems pretty sure that Robert is his father and the rumors are lies made up by his enemies.

¹ Of course there are a few hundred fans on this forum and other places who think they know some universal "medieval law" and can therefore determine the rightful king and start passing judgment on everyone else. But I think most of GRRM's readers got the point.

² And given the age of his siblings, that isn't surprising. Of course on TV, where everyone started off 2 years older and the story has dragged on 3 more years than in the books, it's a different story, and they had to deal with that....

[Syphon the Sanitator]

Cersei's only child is Moon Boy. The blonde ones are all Targaryens put there by Varys.

[sweetsunray]

 

That's not an underlying assumption. I offered it as one singular idea, among the others. 

 

To the rest of you... 

 

The purpose wasn't to ask if it would make sense for GRRM to reveal that some of Cirsei's children are legitimate, but that can we ever know for sure that they aren't? We have Cirsei's overtly wishful thinking telling us yes, but the realities of the story telling us that it could be otherwise. 

 

I actually tend to lean on the side that, we can't really know for sure, so everyone's claims to the throne were weak from the beginning:

 

1. Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella may or may not be Robert's children, so their claim is weak. 

2. Stannis doesn't know for sure, he's just trusting hair color (essentially) so his claim is weak.

3. Renly's claim is weak because even if #1 is true, Stannis has the more rightful claim. 

 

Etc, etc. 

 

I think you underestimate a woman's knowledge of her own body and cycle. Without anti-conception a woman gets to know the signs of her body. It's not completely scientific accurate, but around the time of ovulation, there are some physical sensations. A 13-year old Dany wouldn't know them yet, after only just starting her period. But Cersei was 18 when she married Robert. You can be sure that once Cersei intended to cuckold Robert she knew her body and period well enough when to sleep with Robert and when Jaime. And after the pregnancy she aborted, she also knew the early body signs of a pregnancy. Some of those physical signs occur within a few days of conception. Ask around with women who've had children and they can pinpoint when and where their child was conceived. Meanwhile Robert is exactly the type of guy who doesn't pay any attention to "woman's business", especially as drunk as he was.

[LadyStoneHearte]

There's no way that they aren't Jamie's. Firstly, because Cersei says that they are not, and we can be fairly certain that she can be trusted with this. Cersei took great pleasure in not having sex with Robert but making him think that they did. She took a perverse satisfaction in making sure that she licked away the sperm and using "other methods" to please him other than vaginal sex- which is needed to make a baby. On the rare occasions that Cersei did actually have sex with Robert you can be certain that she remembered it because she hated him. She aborted one child because she knew it was Robert's. If she had sex with Robert and then the next month was pregnant, well she can put it together. I think it's also fair to assume that she was having sex with Jamie much more often than she was having sex with Robert, so by sheer probability they are most likely Jamie's. As for the claim that they are too mentally stable to be the products of incest, we can look to the Targaryens. Some are certainly born insane, but many weren't. Being born of an incestous relationship does not always produce an child with physical or mental abnormalities. Look at Rhaegar, Daenerys, and Viserys. Of the three of them, Rhaegar and Daenerys are fine, but Viserys clearly inherited some mental problems due to his heritage. The same can be said for Joffrey, Tommen, and Myrcella. Joffrey was clearly bonkers, but Tommen and Myrcella are fine.

 

I hesitate to bring genetics up because this is a fantasy novel, but GRRM did in GOT when Ned, Jon Arryn, and Stannis all learned the true parentage of the trio by studying a book of Westerosi geneology, so I think it is okay. Blond hair is a recessive trait (homozygous recessive). In order for a recessive trait to be passed down, there must be a mother and a father who are homozygous recessive OR one parent who is homozygous recessive and one parent who is heterozygous (that is to say, they have one recessive allele and one dominant allele.) We know that Cersei has blond hair, making her the homozygous recessive parent. Robert would have to be heterozygous, as he has dark hair. But all evidence points to him instead being homozygous dominant, meaning that he carries two dominant alleles and no recessive alleles (two dark haired alleles, no blond haired alleles). All of Robert's bastards have dark hair, when if he were heterozygous and presumably having sex with red haired and blonde women, some of his children would have fair hair. Furthermore, the book of Westerosi geneology that Ned and Jon Arryn examine shows that whenever a Baratheon marries a Lannister, their offspring always have dark hair. This seams to indicate that the Baratheon family as a whole does not deviate from the dark hair. But Jaime has blond hair, and Cersei has blond hair, so any child of theirs would have blond hair.

[Caspoi]

Very certain, we even have a confirmation from old Maggy that it is so. Putting an end on all theories that Cersei and Robert had any children together (or at least it should).

[Rippounet]

I agree that I haven't got the right to say what is and what isn't. The point I was originally trying to get across was that sometimes GRRM means the things he writes, rather than constantly deceiving the audience.

 

And yet, there are tons of elements that require more than one reading to fully understand, because of information coming later in the books. It happens a lot throughout the series.

You're really saying that there are some elements you don't want to re-examine, because you like them as they are.

[Rhaeligar]

Does Shireen have black hair? I'm pretty sure she has the Florent ears, so.... maybe Baratheon traits aren't that strong.

[sweetsunray]

Does Shireen have black hair? I'm pretty sure she has the Florent ears, so.... maybe Baratheon traits aren't that strong.

 

Shireen's color of hair is unmentioned, but in illustration art she's depicted with black hair. It is said however she has the strong jaw and the blue eyes.

As for the Florent ears: Edric Storm is Robert's bastard with a Florent. He has black hair, Baratheon jaw, blue eyes, and Florent ears.

 

It's not because the Baratheon black hair and jaw are dominant, that the ears are necessarily so.

[spoon89]

Part of the research done by Jon, Stannis and Ned is The Lineages and Histories of the Great Houses of the Seven Kingdoms, With Descriptions of Many High Lords and Noble Ladies and Their Children, by Grand Maester Malleon. Ned notes that in every instance going back as far as the book goes, that any Baratheon and Lannister match results in black haired kids.

 

There is also the matter of the those Baratheon hunting tapestries that Littlefinger acquired, likely to date back to some of those same matches and may be visual proof of the black haired Baratheons, with their golden haired spouses and kids with black hair, a visual proof of sorts for those Lords not able to read the book themselves.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

I agree that they are Jaime's children. The OP probably does not remember all the evidence of this, which others are helpfully pointing out.

The rest of this is bollocks. "Fandom" is probably right. There probably ARE quite a few twists and turns to come, and GRRM probably is trying to fool us or surprise us in various ways. Sure, the vast majority of people who try to guess at these twists will probably guess badly or guess wrong. But the knee-jerk reaction to this - to try to make a rule against people trying to make theories or anticipate twists or question assumptions - is utterly silly. There is nothing wrong with asking questions, and questioning assumptions.

Thank you!  I'm a little tired of that aspect of this forum myself.  People should feel free to ask questions without being ridiculed.

[~~~~~~~~~~~~~]

Does Shireen have black hair? I'm pretty sure she has the Florent ears, so.... maybe Baratheon traits aren't that strong.

I really wouldn't go by the show on this one.  Dany should have purple eyes.  Tyrion should have hair so blonde its almost white.  The show doesn't adhere to the book religiously as far as coloring goes.  Jon's eyes are grey and so on.  Plus, everyone is much younger in the books. 

[ShelbySmythe]

 

And yet, there are tons of elements that require more than one reading to fully understand, because of information coming later in the books. It happens a lot throughout the series.

You're really saying that there are some elements you don't want to re-examine, because you like them as they are.

 

I suppose I am. I guess we'll just have to wait for the next two books to get all our answers.

[BlackFyre > BlackFire]

You're using a bad example. If Tyrion turns out not to be Tywin's son, then you're the one who will have to reconsider their relationship based on this "new" information. You don't get to eliminate the possibility of a reveal because it doesn't suit your reading of the story.

 

Martin uses a number of different devices to surprise: plot twists, mysteries, and misdirections. The first two are easy enough to discuss. The third one... Well, no one can agree on how much should be questioned. We know there will be revelations in the next books, and not just R+L=J. It's extremely likely that some elements we have are actually wrong. I tend to think that all elements which have a single source (a single character) should be questioned. This isn't the case here (with Cersei's children), but that still leaves tons of things which can be re-examined critically.

 

 

the reader should be able to discern the character's arc as it's being told. that's part of good writing. and i think the majority of people are in agreement that tyrion and tywin's story arc's make sense only if they are really father and son.  m night shamalaman...or whatever...is a perfect example of a writer thinking a twist justifies itself. it doesn't. all twist's in all good/great works are fiction make sense in hindsight, we go back and see the foreshadowing and the twist does make us rethink our perceptions about the story and the character's, but they do not make a complex character interaction completely pointless. which is to say, IMO, if tyrion is not tywin's son then their character arc's won't make sense. i'm amazed that some people can't see that.

 

also...wth...how is this still being debated? within the world that grrm created the question of who's the father of cersai's kids is pretty obvious.