If Dany sits the throne: Dothraki, Ghiscari, others

[Bobby b's bobby]

If that was true they wouldn't be able to be bought off instead of sacking a city. Drogo had a manse in Pentos, they definitely care about riches.

Isn't it more the idea of being given the manse out of respect for their strength than the actual manse the dothraki don't seem to like luxury or money just horses and rape.

[Nictarion]

Isn't it more the idea of being given the manse out of respect for their strength than the actual manse the dothraki don't seem to like luxury or money just horses and rape.

Again, they can be bought off by cities wanting to avoid battle. They care about riches.

[Bobby b's bobby]

Again, they can be bought off by cities wanting to avoid battle. They care about riches.

Again, I think it's the idea of being give the riches rather than the riches dothraki don't want to build a keep for defense or a summer home.

[Nictarion]

Again, I think it's the idea of being give the riches rather than the riches dothraki don't want to build a keep for defense or a summer home.

I have no idea what you're trying to argue here. All I know is the Dothraki wear gold and riches. Of course they don't build keeps, they're a nomadic people. I don't think it's out of the question for them to change their ways. At least as far as rape and slavery are concerned. The same way the Wildlings are being held to a new set of rules by Jon Snow. Daenerys is going to have immense influence over them as TStMtW.

[Bobby b's bobby]

I have no idea what you're trying to argue here. All I know is the Dothraki wear gold and riches. Of course they don't build keeps, they're a nomadic people. I don't think it's out of the question for them to change their ways. At least as far as rape and slavery are concerned. The same way the Wildlings are being held to a new set of rules by Jon Snow. Daenerys is going to have immense influence over them as TStMtW.

I get they like to wear gold but do they actually buy anything or just barter?

Buildings were a crap example I'll admit and dany will likely get a lot of influence over them I'll just find it weird if they abandon the raping and murdering.

[Nictarion]

I get they like to wear gold but do they actually buy anything or just barter?

Buildings were a crap example I'll admit and dany will likely get a lot of influence over them I'll just find it weird if they abandon the raping and murdering.

Nobody said anything about the murdering. ;)

[Bobby b's bobby]

Nobody said anything about the murdering. ;)

Fair enough plenty of kingsmen Tyrells and lannisters between her and that ugly chair only issue with that is if the dothraki are even semi useful in Westeros fighting I may have to burn my books.

[Nictarion]

Fair enough plenty of kingsmen Tyrells and lannisters between her and that ugly chair only issue with that is if the dothraki are even semi useful in Westeros fighting I may have to burn my books.

On their own their usefulnesswould be fairly limited, but combined with the Unsullied, Dany's sellswords, and the Ironborn, they're a pretty well rounded fighting force.

[Bobby b's bobby]

On their own their usefulnesswould be fairly limited, but combined with the Unsullied, Dany's sellswords, and the Ironborn, they're a pretty well rounded fighting force.

In real life that force is fairly terrible but I know in story tell be at least competent. Sellswords are as likely to betray you or run than help, ironborn are crap on land, unsullied are fantasy bs and dothraki think armour is for cowards. I know they'll probably be better than competent but I almost want them to fail like they should the only problem with that would be dany failing I dont want that either.

[SeanF]

But my point is that I don't think they really care about profits nearly as much as they care about destroying. Nobody looking for profit would burn every settlement to the ground, kill everyone they couldn't enslave, etc. for 400 years. Their appetites are for destruction, and you can only destroy the 9 Free Cities once apiece, and then there's nothing left. Even if Dany gave them the Free Cities to rule, they're not going to be happy with all the gold and bed slaves and a beautifully-decorated roof over their heads, they're going to be unhappy that a city is standing where there could instead be grass for their horses. You need to make them realize that their culture is wrong about everything, and they'd get more of what they actually enjoy by completely changing what they believe in, and it's hard to see how you can do that overnight.(It's also hard to imagine Dany handing over a whole city's worth of women to be rape victims or bed slaves, even if they weren't officially called that, and even if their life was no worse under their previous masters.)

In real life, plenty of nomadic conquerors have acquired a taste for gold, fine houses, silks, wine, and other luxuries. In the book, Drogo already enjoys these things. I doubt if he's the only Dothraki leader who does so.

The destruction of Sarnor took place 300 years ago. Most of the plunder from that will be long gone. I think the Dothraki will be open to persuasion.

As to rape, Dany hated the brutality of what took place at Mirri's town. But, her advice was to take the conquered women as wives, not rape them on the spot. She fantasises about carried off at sword point by Daario, as she thinks Lyanna was by Rhaegar. She regards the women of the conquered as a prize of war. She just doesn't want them treated brutally.

[SeanF]

Nobody said anything about the murdering. ;)

I'm sure they'll be plenty of fighting and exemplary mass executions to satisfy them.

[falcotron]

In real life, plenty of nomadic conquerors have acquired a taste for gold, fine houses, silks, wine, and other luxuries.

But that's my whole point: the Dothraki are not like real-life nomadic conquerors.

The Huns recruited warriors and left everyone else behind to raise food so they could take some of it for their armies.

The Vikings reminded their young men to leave the towns and monasteries as intact as possible so they could plunder them again later.

The Mongols built an empire, with huge cities that they could tax, and built and patrolled the roads to increase the taxable trade revenues.

Even the Plains Indians, who invented a horse warrior culture from whole cloth in the span of a couple generations, quickly learned the same tricks, and invented "ancient" traditions like raiding as far from home as possible, and winning with as few casualties as possible on both sides.

The Dothraki burned down every settlement they could and killed all the people they couldn't enslave, and continued to do so for 400 years.

One of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong. Can you tell which thing is not like the others, by the time I finish this song?

The destruction of Sarnor took place 300 years ago. Most of the plunder from that will be long gone.

Of course it is. If they'd left some of the cities intact, or at least some of the towns, or at least some of the villages, or at least let people settle new villages without immediately destroying them, there would be more plunder. But they haven't, so there isn't. In 400 years, they still haven't figured that out. Why not? Maybe they're just incredibly stupid. Or their culture is as inherently and fervently anti-civilization as they claim.

[SeanF]

But, the Lhazareen still exist as a people. So do the Ghiscari. The first are there to be plundered and enslaved, the second to sell slaves to. The Dothraki may well have destroyed everything in sight in the past, but now they seem more open to extortion and selling their plundered human beings.

[Gasp of Many Reeds]

But that's my whole point: the Dothraki are not like real-life nomadic conquerors...

The Mongols built an empire, with huge cities that they could tax, and built and patrolled the roads to increase the taxable trade revenues.

The Mongols did in places rule well once they had conquered (Kublai Khan being the model). But they were systematically brutal in conquest - not without rationale; they sought to intimidate other states and cities into surrender, but brutal nevertheless. See the destruction of Khwarezm, the Sack of Baghdad and the initially highly deleterious effect of Mongol rule on the Chinese peasant population (compare late Song and Yuan on the graph in the link below [scroll down the page] - this is based on high estimates for Song Dynasty populations and low for the Yuan but there certainly was significant decline under Mongol rule).

 

http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/special/china_1950_population.htm

[SeanF]

The Mongols did in places rule well once they had conquered (Kublai Khan being the model). But they were systematically brutal in conquest - not without rationale; they sought to intimidate other states and cities into surrender, but brutal nevertheless. See the destruction of Khwarezm, the Sack of Baghdad and the initially highly deleterious effect of Mongol rule on the Chinese peasant population (compare late Song and Yuan on the graph in the link below [scroll down the page] - this is based on high estimates for Song Dynasty populations and low for the Yuan but there certainly was significant decline under Mongol rule).
 
http://afe.easia.columbia.edu/special/china_1950_population.htm

At one point the Mongols seriously considered exterminating the entire population of Northern China and using the land to pasture their flocks. Fortunately, Ogedei was persuaded against it.

[ThePrunesThatWasPromised]

As to rape, Dany hated the brutality of what took place at Mirri's town. But, her advice was to take the conquered women as wives, not rape them on the spot. She fantasises about carried off at sword point by Daario, as she thinks Lyanna was by Rhaegar. She regards the women of the conquered as a prize of war. She just doesn't want them treated brutally.

This is about as progressive as freeing slaves to be unpaid serfs. These supposed progressive policies are little more than euphemisms and no better than what Westeros has at present.

In fact, it is in all likelihood worse than what they have after the faith militant have rearmed to protect the small folk.

I see no reason why anyone in Westeros would tolerate this for any reason other than fear.

Burning a bunch of ice zombies on dragon back might help her PR in world, but it hardly makes her a relatable heroine.

[HappilyEverAfter]

But that's my whole point: the Dothraki are not like real-life nomadic conquerors.

The Huns recruited warriors and left everyone else behind to raise food so they could take some of it for their armies.

The Vikings reminded their young men to leave the towns and monasteries as intact as possible so they could plunder them again later.

The Mongols built an empire, with huge cities that they could tax, and built and patrolled the roads to increase the taxable trade revenues.

Even the Plains Indians, who invented a horse warrior culture from whole cloth in the span of a couple generations, quickly learned the same tricks, and invented "ancient" traditions like raiding as far from home as possible, and winning with as few casualties as possible on both sides.

The Dothraki burned down every settlement they could and killed all the people they couldn't enslave, and continued to do so for 400 years.

One of these things is not like the others. One of these things just doesn't belong. Can you tell which thing is not like the others, by the time I finish this song?

Of course it is. If they'd left some of the cities intact, or at least some of the towns, or at least some of the villages, or at least let people settle new villages without immediately destroying them, there would be more plunder. But they haven't, so there isn't. In 400 years, they still haven't figured that out. Why not? Maybe they're just incredibly stupid. Or their culture is as inherently and fervently anti-civilization as they claim.

Except, most of the Dothraki don't destroy cities, only the stupid ones looking for glory do. The first Khal to unite the khalasars only destroyed fields and villages of the Sarnori that he was paid to destroy. His son sacked one city and was paid to sack another, six years later. When he was killed in a coup, his successor sacked Gornath 12 years later. In between they were probably raiding other settlements or other Sarnori cities, but not destroying them. Then, when the united khalasar broke apart, there were probably Dothraki horselords who didn't destroy cities and instead wanted to raid them, but instead a few hot-headed young khals who weren't fully secure in their position destroyed the cities, independently.

Moreover, the Dothraki have a system of making profit, in place. Set up shop next to a free city to scare them into giving you gold (which requires an unpleasant reputation), and then raid weaker settlements when your khalasar grows restless, and sell the people as slaves. Granted, it probably wasn't intentional, but it's an economic plan similar to the examples from the real world you listed.

[SeanF]

This is about as progressive as freeing slaves to be unpaid serfs. These supposed progressive policies are little more than euphemisms and no better than what Westeros has at present.

In fact, it is in all likelihood worse than what they have after the faith militant have rearmed to protect the small folk.

I see no reason why anyone in Westeros would tolerate this for any reason other than fear.

Burning a bunch of ice zombies on dragon back might help her PR in world, but it hardly makes her a relatable heroine.

 

Being a serf is  better than being a chattel slave.  Becoming the wife of your conqueror is  better than being gang-raped.  But, neither of these are good things, by our standards.

 

I think that if Dany does lead the Dothraki into Western Essos, there'll be plenty of losers and winners.  Freed slaves will probably be happier, but still resent having to pay taxes and rents to their new overlords.  Free citizens will certainly resent having their slaves freed, and having to pay the same rents and taxes to new overlords.

[ThePrunesThatWasPromised]

The problem I have with those hollow gestures has more to do with them being used as ends that justify the means of burning her slave, mass crucifixions and total war- when that's a humongous stretch.

That ignores even letting Astapor revert back to slavery.

My problem isn't that they aren't a hair better than the status quo.

[The Dragons Hand]

I don't think any readers are expecting an easy transition. Even the Dornish are still distrusted in KL. But you have to hand it to Daenerys for being one of the few characters who has shown an ability and willingness to adapt to other cultures and learn their customs. Most other characters are stuck on some kind of cultural divide (north! no, south! Ironborn! Wildling!), but Dany recognizes the need to reach across those lines.

The perks of being raised as an exile on the run.