Winter Rose Crown Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 The dishonor is not necessarily sexual in nature. In world, there are a lot of ways to dishonor someone. Maybe aerys pulled a joffrey and had Ashara stripped and beaten a la sansa stark. Tyrion did interrupt that beating in the throne room saying something along the lines of, "she's to be your wife, have you no regard for her honor?" And maybe the stark she turned to was Lyanna. We don't know what happened or why she needed help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Perrin Stark Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Also as stated by a poster earlier, Ashara comes from Dorne who are very open with there sexuality, while Selmy comes from a place where pre-marital sex is looked down upon leaving the woman not fit for a proper marriage. It's like a priest trying to make sense out of a porn star he fell in love with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 5, 2015 Author Share Posted August 5, 2015 The dishonor is not necessarily sexual in nature. In world, there are a lot of ways to dishonor someone. Maybe aerys pulled a joffrey and had Ashara stripped and beaten a la sansa stark. Tyrion did interrupt that beating in the throne room saying something along the lines of, "she's to be your wife, have you no regard for her honor?" And maybe the stark she turned to was Lyanna. We don't know what happened or why she needed help. Although this is a possibility for Ashsra to seek help or rescue from a Stark, it is kind of hard to believe IMO. If Ashara got some trouble or dishonor at HH, why did she seek help from Ned or Brandon? She has her brother and Elia right there. and she did not even know Ned or Brandon before the HH. Neither of them is a powerful lord at that time to do anything. If Ashara got trouble after HH, it is even more unlikely. Ned and Brandon are not in KL or DS. How can Ashara seek help from him? What kind of help can they provide? I believe Ashara slept with Brandon and got pregnant. But Brandon can not marry her. Then Ned proposed to her due to his love in her and his guilty for his brother. Then she saw or heard Brandon's cruel death. Then Ned had to marry cat. Then her brother's death by Ned. This is more than enough reason for her to commit suicide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Rose Crown Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Although this is a possibility for Ashsra to seek help or rescue from a Stark, it is kind of hard to believe IMO. If Ashara got some trouble or dishonor at HH, why did she seek help from Ned or Brandon? She has her brother and Elia right there. and she did not even know Ned or Brandon before the HH. Neither of them is a powerful lord at that time to do anything. If Ashara got trouble after HH, it is even more unlikely. Ned and Brandon are not in KL or DS. How can Ashara seek help from him? What kind of help can they provide? I believe Ashara slept with Brandon and got pregnant. But Brandon can not marry her. Then Ned proposed to her due to his love in her and his guilty for his brother. Then she saw or heard Brandon's cruel death. Then Ned had to marry cat. Then her brother's death by Ned. This is more than enough reason for her to commit suicide. maybe she "turned to a stark" meaning lyanna. She slept with someone (consentually or no) and was desperate for help, to get moontea, she was just scared and wanted her help to get out quickly... If she were raped, it is way more likely she would turn to another woman than her brother or her betrothed or any other man. We don't really have enough info to know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Green King Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 He didn't defend his sisters honour, because she wasn't dishonoured. Barristan Selmy thinks she was dishonoured, but we have no way to be sure. It's also doubtful that it was a Stark, the text doesn't literally say it was a Stark. Anything that goes towards that in the text is all quite speculative. And no, i don't buy it Aery + Ashara. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 5, 2015 Author Share Posted August 5, 2015 maybe she "turned to a stark" meaning lyanna. She slept with someone (consentually or no) and was desperate for help, to get moontea, she was just scared and wanted her help to get out quickly... If she were raped, it is way more likely she would turn to another woman than her brother or her betrothed or any other man. We don't really have enough info to know. Come on. I think Ashara can get moon tea in any grocery store in the town. She does not even need a prescription. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Rose Crown Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Come on. I think Ashara can get moon tea in any grocery store in the town. She does not even need a prescription. yeah, yeah, I know. I've always gotten the feeling it was Lyanna. I mean, what woman is humiliated by a man (best case scenario) or raped (worst case scenario) and turns to another man for help? She would have gone to a woman. But I realize I have no textual evidence for this. I'm sure it is intentionally ambiguous, whatever the reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 5, 2015 Author Share Posted August 5, 2015 yeah, yeah, I know. I've always gotten the feeling it was Lyanna. I mean, what woman is humiliated by a man (best case scenario) or raped (worst case scenario) and turns to another man for help? She would have gone to a woman. But I realize I have no textual evidence for this. I'm sure it is intentionally ambiguous, whatever the reason. It is indeed ambiguous. But still I think it is much much more likely for her to seek help from Elia in stead of Lyanna, a "good and gentle" Dornish woman who is not only her boss and possible friend (who will bring an unfriendly and hateful companion from her hometown to the court?), but also more familiar with the pregnancy and baby thing than Ashara and Lyanna. Lyanna is already busy with Rhaegar in her false spring. Let us just leave her with Rhaegar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 First we don't know for certain that a Stark dishonored Ashara. It's a reasonable assumption to make, but it's not 100% certain. Then, we don't even know what "dishonored" means. Does it mean she slept with someone (consensually) or that she was raped? If she had consensual sex, there's no reason for Arthur to challenge anyone. In fact, the rape is unlikely, considering Barry's choice of words on the whole matter. "Dishonored" seems to indicate Barry's jealousy more than anything else. Sansa's words to Sweetrobin suggest, at least, that to get a woman pregnant without marrying her or being in a position to marry her (as when a Lord knocks up a commoner) is to "dishonor" that woman. Of course, maybe Rhaegar "dishonored" her by not crowning her the Queen of Love and Beauty; an "honor" that Barristan clearly felt she deserved. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winter Rose Crown Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 It is indeed ambiguous. But still I think it is much much more likely for her to seek help from Elia in stead of Lyanna, a "good and gentle" Dornish woman who is not only her boss and possible friend (who will bring an unfriendly and hateful companion from her hometown to the court?), but also more familiar with the pregnancy and baby thing than Ashara and Lyanna. Lyanna is already busy with Rhaegar in her false spring. Let us just leave her with Rhaegar. wasn't elia pregnant with aegon at the time? I thought she was very early in the pregnancy but I could be wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 5, 2015 Author Share Posted August 5, 2015 Of course, maybe Rhaegar "dishonored" her by not crowning her the Queen of Love and Beauty; an "honor" that Barristan clearly felt she deserved. You just made my day. So Rhaegar "dishonored" all the ladies present that day except Lyanna since I am sure many of these ladies were loved by someone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 5, 2015 Author Share Posted August 5, 2015 wasn't elia pregnant with aegon at the time? I thought she was very early in the pregnancy but I could be wrong. It did not say clear anywhere. Based on the timeline, she is either very early pregnant or she got pregnant very shortly after HH. Of course either case just made Rhaegar a bigger dick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChillyPolly Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 You just made my day. So Rhaegar "dishonored" all the ladies present that day except Lyanna since I am sure many of these ladies were loved by someone. "Someone" is not speaking. Barristan is. "Dishonor" can be a relative term; implying that one is deprived of an honor that they deserve or are entitled to. Barristan has only just finished telling us who HE would have given this honor to, had he won the tournament. I'm not saying its a likely interpretation, but I'm not making an entirely random connection either. Look, I don't want to defend this interpretation with my life. I think the more likely interpretation is that someone (Ned, Brandon, Rhaegar) knocked her up and got her preggers at Harrenhall. Barristan thinks grief over this person may be a factor, implying that person has died (Brandon or Rhaegar) or perhaps has married someone else (Ned). Except that leads to timing problems and stuff, since her suicide is 2-3 years later. I'm just trying to keep an open mind about the possibilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 5, 2015 Author Share Posted August 5, 2015 "Someone" is not speaking. Barristan is. "Dishonor" can be a relative term; implying that one is deprived of an honor that they deserve or are entitled to. Barristan has only just finished telling us who HE would have given this honor to, had he won the tournament. I'm not saying its a likely interpretation, but I'm not making an entirely random connection either. Look, I don't want to defend this interpretation with my life. I think the more likely interpretation is that someone (Ned, Brandon, Rhaegar) knocked her up and got her preggers at Harrenhall. Barristan thinks grief over this person may be a factor, implying that person has died (Brandon or Rhaegar) or perhaps has married someone else (Ned). Except that leads to timing problems and stuff, since her suicide is 2-3 years later. I'm just trying to keep an open mind about the possibilities. All right. It is a possibility. But I think it is very unlikely. About the timing issue, yes, this is very confusing. Maybe this is just a minor mistake GRRM made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Really? KG can not even fight for his own sister's honor? This is how it works. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Green King Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 It is indeed ambiguous. But still I think it is much much more likely for her to seek help from Elia in stead of Lyanna, a "good and gentle" Dornish woman who is not only her boss and possible friend (who will bring an unfriendly and hateful companion from her hometown to the court?), but also more familiar with the pregnancy and baby thing than Ashara and Lyanna. Lyanna is already busy with Rhaegar in her false spring. Let us just leave her with Rhaegar. Unless it involves Elia's uncle or her brother, then Ashara wouldn't turn to Elia And maybe the dishonor wasn't that 'big'. Barristan, who loved Ashara, thinks it is a dishonor, but does Ashara think that too? If she made love willingly to her lover, but the pregnancy was an accident, it could be perceived as a dishonor by people who don't know much. But maybe she wasn't as heartbroken or dishonored as yo would think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 5, 2015 Author Share Posted August 5, 2015 This is how it works. yeah, sadly it seems to be true. They had to forsake everything to serve the king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A spoon of knife and fork Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 This is how it works. That's how it works in theory but everything we know clearly demonstrates how it is complete BS in practice. Of course people in the KG still care about and favor their family members. The only time it's an issue is when it's in direct conflict with the wishes of the royal family, which the case discussed here would not be (unless Aerys or Rhaegar really were involved). And that's when you are forced to make a decision like Jaime (and myriadothers) have done. I think IF Aerys did in fact rape Ashara, that gives Arthur a believable motive in working with Rhaegar to overthrow Aerys - probably even pushing his friend to do it. But, I don't think that's the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Blizzardborn Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 Might I point out that we don't even know for sure that Ashara had a child at all, let alone that she got pregnant at Harrenhal. From Barristan's thoughts I got the impression that the stillbirth had been near the end of the war, which puts the conception months after Harrenhal. In medieval Westeros if she got caught making out with some guy she'd have been considered dishonored. The dishonor is not necessarily sexual in nature. In world, there are a lot of ways to dishonor someone. Maybe aerys pulled a joffrey and had Ashara stripped and beaten a la sansa stark. Tyrion did interrupt that beating in the throne room saying something along the lines of, "she's to be your wife, have you no regard for her honor?" And maybe the stark she turned to was Lyanna. We don't know what happened or why she needed help. I like your thinking in general but if the daughter of House Dayne had been treated like that, we'd know it, and Barristan (who was there) would definitely have been outraged and remember it in his thoughts. Men don't usually think of women by their last names, at least not in medieval settings. He would have thought Lady Lyanna, or Lyanna Stark, or the Stark girl, or the Stark daughter. "turned to Stark" means she turned to a male member of House Stark, most likely one who was of age. And quite frankly she could have gone to Lord Rickard for assistance. If she needed help from someone powerful, the Warden of the North would be a good choice. Sadly, we don't know that Rickard was at Harrenhal, though it would make sense if he was. Come to think of it...Rickard was single and had been for presumably quite some time. If he was there, HE could have seduced Ashara. Not saying it's likely but it's possible. But again, we don't have any indication that he WAS there. Another reason to "turn to Stark" for help: it was one of their bannermen. Might be crackpot, but I've been curious about why it is Howland Reed was keeping track of her dance partners. And I imagine her family would not consider the little crannogman who needed a girl to defend him as a suitable match for their jewel. She'd need help from the Starks to convince her father (or the elusive elder brother) to let her marry Howl...which may or may not have worked. I maintain that Ashara's body never having been found, and the readers having NO eyewitness info, her death could have been faked for any number of reasons. A less than equal marriage, a pro-Targ action after the war ended, a passionate desire to study Norvoshi pottery, a burning desire to learn shadowbinding and wear a cool mask, etc. Then again, if she slept with Ned's dad and he was as upset about that as could be expected, I could see her jumping from a tower after a confrontation with Ned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dorian Martell Posted August 5, 2015 Share Posted August 5, 2015 yeah, sadly it seems to be true. They had to forsake everything to serve the king. That is part of the deal That's how it works in theory but everything we know clearly demonstrates how it is complete BS in practice. Of course people in the KG still care about and favor their family members. The only time it's an issue is when it's in direct conflict with the wishes of the royal family, which the case discussed here would not be (unless Aerys or Rhaegar really were involved). And that's when you are forced to make a decision like Jaime (and myriadothers) have done. I think IF Aerys did in fact rape Ashara, that gives Arthur a believable motive in working with Rhaegar to overthrow Aerys - probably even pushing his friend to do it. But, I don't think that's the case. Ad was the paragon of honor and knighthood. He would not break a vow, much like he did not break his vow at the ToJ. Rape theory or no, he swore a vow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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