Why Arthur Dayne did not challenge any Stark for Ashara's dishonor?

[LordDireStark]

Members of the kingsguard don't give up their family's they just give up their title to lands and inheritances. Don't forget Oswell was still

close with his brother Lord Walter Whent. It was Selmy who said it was a Stark who dishonored Ashara. My problem with all this is that

noone seemed to know except Selmy which is hard to believe.

1-If it was anyone it would've been Brandon,because he was a womanizer and would do it just to spite Ned.Something like if you're                                   

   not going to go for her.I will..

2-Ashara wouldn't have told Ned because she loved him.

3- Ashara left Elia shortly after the tourney and returned to Starfall,which leaves me to believe it was Brandon who got her pregnant.

4- If this is so ,then Elia would've had to know who did it because Ashara wouldn't lie to Elia.

5- Now,if Elia knows,then we have to assume that Rhaegar and Arthur found out too.So Arthur probably did know but didn't have to

    do anything to Brandon is because the mad king beat him to it.

6- Now,Arthur could've said something to Ned at the TofJ but Ashara might've asked Arthur to promise not to tell or challenge

    Ned because she loved him.

7-I think Ashara killed herself,not only because she lost her baby and brother BUT because Ned also told her he was probably

   going to marry Catelyn,which would've crushed her now that she had noone left.

[purple-eyes]

Members of the kingsguard don't give up their family's they just give up their title to lands and inheritances. Don't forget Oswell was still
close with his brother Lord Walter Whent. It was Selmy who said it was a Stark who dishonored Ashara. My problem with all this is that
noone seemed to know except Selmy which is hard to believe.
1-If it was anyone it would've been Brandon,because he was a womanizer and would do it just to spite Ned.Something like if you're                                   
   not going to go for her.I will..
2-Ashara wouldn't have told Ned because she loved him.
3- Ashara left Elia shortly after the tourney and returned to Starfall,which leaves me to believe it was Brandon who got her pregnant.
4- If this is so ,then Elia would've had to know who did it because Ashara wouldn't lie to Elia.
5- Now,if Elia knows,then we have to assume that Rhaegar and Arthur found out too.So Arthur probably did know but didn't have to
    do anything to Brandon is because the mad king beat him to it.
6- Now,Arthur could've said something to Ned at the TofJ but Ashara might've asked Arthur to promise not to tell or challenge
    Ned because she loved him.
7-I think Ashara killed herself,not only because she lost her baby and brother BUT because Ned also told her he was probably
   going to marry Catelyn,which would've crushed her now that she had noone left.

Good theory. But At that moment, ned already married and had little Robb on the way.
The information about her is so confusing. We do not even know when she gave birth to a baby.

[Rippounet]

It was Selmy who said it was a Stark who dishonored Ashara.

Let's start by checking the quote.

 

Even after all these years, Ser Barristan could still recall Ashara’s smile, the sound of her laughter. He had only to close his eyes to see her, with her long dark hair tumbling about her shoulders and those haunting purple eyes. Daenerys has the same eyes. Sometimes when the queen looked at him, he felt as if he were looking at Ashara’s daughter…

But Ashara’s daughter had been stillborn, and his fair lady had thrown herself from a tower soon after, mad with grief for the child she had lost, and perhaps for the man who had dishonored her at Harrenhal as well. She died never knowing that Ser Barristan had loved her. How could she? He was a knight of the Kingsguard, sworn to celibacy. No good could have come from telling her his feelings. No good came from silence either. If I had unhorsed Rhaegar and crowned Ashara queen of love and beauty, might she have looked to me instead of Stark?

He would never know. But of all his failures, none haunted Barristan Selmy so much as that

This does suggest Brandon, but it's not unambiguous.

 

1-If it was anyone it would've been Brandon,because he was a womanizer and would do it just to spite Ned.Something like if you're not going to go for her.I will..

That Brandon was a womanizer is apparently true (see: Lady Dustin). That he was the one who dishonored Ashara is possible (I tend to think so as well). That he would do it to spite Ned is dubious. Do you have examples of Brandon ever being such a dick to his brother?

 

3- Ashara left Elia shortly after the tourney and returned to Starfall,which leaves me to believe it was Brandon who got her pregnant.

Why would Ashara returning to Starfall indicate that it was specifically Brandon who got her pregnant? Also, how do you know she returned to Starfall immediately after Harrenhal?

[matchesmcfly]

because no Stark did. Barry is my dude, but he's just salty Ned got it in. Not Brandon, not Rhaegar, The Ned.

[A spoon of knife and fork]

We don't know what happened so the answer depends on that.  Here's some options:

 

1 - Ashara was raped/forced by Brandon (I'm going to discount Ned on this one).  

 

Here, your question's definitely relevant.  I would definitely expect Arthur to fight Brandon for his sister's honor in this case, and I really don't agree with people who claim that you really give up your family when you are KG.  Come on.  That's what vows say, maybe, but we all know that's bullshit in reality. 

 

2 - Ashara had consensual sex with Ned (or Brandon) and later things ended without anyone really being at fault

 

Barristan might consider this to be a "dishonor" given he really didn't know Ashara that well, or presumably the details of whatever relationship(s) she had.  On the other hand, Arthur might not see it as dishonorable.  Arthur may have known his sister well enough (and maybe they talked about it) to know that she was perfectly fine making her own romantic choices.  Not everyone in medeavil times was so concerned with "sexual purity".  Also do remember that the Daynes are a Dornish house, so while they may not be quite as crazy as the Martells, it's not unreasonable to assume that some amount of "young love" would be acceptable, if slightly frowned upon.  

 

3 - Ashara was not "dishonored" by Stark, but rather she "looked to" (probably Ned) Stark in a time of need

 

The passage is vague enough that it's not even clear that Stark dishonored her, even if that seems to be what Barry is implying.  Then maybe your idea of her being dishonored (raped or forced) by someone with a lot of power (e.g. Aerys) is possible.  I agree that if this were the case, Dayne would have a hard time acting.  Plus, it would give him incentive to work with Rhaegar to remove Aerys'.  Buuut, I dont' know.  This seems to be a stretch. 

 

ETA: following up on #2 - If it was Ned and Ashara who become lovers, it's entirely possible that they actually promised to marry one another.  If Arthur knew this, and loved his sister, it is extremely unlikely that he would be angry at Ned for getting Ashara pregnant...  Unless he was a complete asshole.  It wasn't Ned's fault that Brandon died and the rebellion began, forcing him to marry Catelyn and fight on the other side.  It's quite clear from what we hear from Edric that the Daynes hold zero ill will against Ned, even though he personally killed Arthur. 

[Boarsbane]

I think Robert is the one who 'dishonored' her, as for why Dayne wouldn't go after him there are a few possibilities but I think he wasn't willing to fight his best friends cousin and the Lord of Storm's End.

[Bobby b's bobby]

I think Robert is the one who 'dishonored' her, as for why Dayne wouldn't go after him there are a few possibilities but I think he wasn't willing to fight his best friends cousin and the Lord of Storm's End.

Really robert any evidence or just a feeling?

[Boarsbane]

Really robert any evidence or just a feeling?

Feeling. I think it is plausible she knew Ned was Robert's friend and so she turned to him. There is a line about Robert professing love and making promises and then forgetting about them in the mourning and I imagine it would be something like that.

[Bobby b's bobby]

Feeling. I think it is plausible she new Ned was Robert's friend and so she turned to him. There is a line about Robert professing love and making promises and then forgetting about them in the mourning and I imagine it would be something like that.

Makes sence, for me its Brandon but could've been robert, hell it might even have been ned.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I raised this question in another thread but it was flooded and ignored. 

 

So we were told or hinted that either Brandon or Ned was the father of Ashara's child. 

One stark dishonored her at HH, which somehow led to her death. 

 

Now we know Brandon ran to ask Rhaegar for a duel because he thought his sister was kidnapped and dishonored. 

If Ashara was dishonored by a Stark, why her bother, Arthur Dayne, the best worrior in the kingdom, did not ask for a single fight to save the honor of his sister and his house?

 

He can definitely ask his sister who is this guy and then fought with him no matter he is Brandon or Ned. 

Instead he did not do anything and Ashara was sent back to starfall from KL.

This does not make much sense, unless Ashara was dishonored by somebody whom Arthur can not challenge. 

Which is---------------------mad king. 

 

Ashara and Mad King。。。。。。。。。Aegon?

 

Dishonored does not necessarily mean knocked up.  She could have been dishonored at Harrenhal because she got caught kissing someone.  And then later, with her reputation gone, she got pregnant.

Once again I must point out that the text from which most people get the idea that Ned or Brandon fathered Ashara's child is that Barristan said she "looked to Stark."  I don't know how everyone seems to miss that Barristan might have meant she "looked to" a Stark for protection or help.  The context of the line is that Barristan thinks that if he'd won the tournament and crowned her QoLaB she might have "looked to" him instead.  Well we know he wouldn't have slept with her, because of his KG vows, so logically whoever she did "look to" was someone she was hoping would help her somehow.

 

We have no evidence that her (alleged) suicide stems from the events at Harrenhal.  Barristan (who wasn't there) thinks she killed herself out of grief at losing her baby--and maybe [please note this is a maybe on top of second-hand info] losing her lover as well.  Edric, who wasn't even born until three years later, was told by others (most likely Allyria who also may have gotten her info from others) that Ashara and Ned were in love.  He doesn't say that Ned fathered her child.  

 

Eh, Brandon didn't ask for a duel.  He screamed "Rhaegar, come out and die!"  Kind of different.  But anyway, Arthur challenging anyone--if he were free to do so, which he wasn't--depends on him knowing 1) that his sister was dishonored, and 2) who did it.  Ashara might have pulled a Daena the Defiant and refused to say who the culprit was.  

 

Also, it would actually be the place of Lord Dayne--their father or their elder brother (Edric's dad)--to force the issue, so if Arthur hadn't been in the KG it still wouldn't have been his right to say or do anything.  The senior member of the house handles such things (yet another reason why Brandon Stark was a moron).

 

But it has been suggested before that Ashara might have been attacked by the king.  And if that happened, and she thought for even a moment that Arthur would act if he knew, she would have kept the truth from him at all costs.  In fact if Rhaegar dishonored her, she couldn't tell Arthur.  And she couldn't tell Elia in either case.  Her options were extremely limited if a member of the royal family destroyed her reputation.  In fact her only hope if her father and/or elder brother wasn't present might be to go to a member of a powerful house (like the Starks) for help.

[Lady Blizzardborn]

I think Robert is the one who 'dishonored' her, as for why Dayne wouldn't go after him there are a few possibilities but I think he wasn't willing to fight his best friends cousin and the Lord of Storm's End.

I've thought of this too.  Robert is also in line for the throne after Aerys, Rhaegar, Rhaegar's kids, and Viserys (remember Dany wasn't born yet).  No one would have gone after him.

 

Oberyn Martell is another possibility.  I could see her not wanting her family messing with the Red Viper.

[TRLR]

Is it just me who cannot fathom Ned "dishonoring" Ashara? My money has always been on Brandon getting her pregnant. Robert is another possibility. In both scenarios, I could see Ned doing the right thing by proposing to her to cover either Brandon's or Robert's ass. 

[Bobby b's bobby]

Is it just me who cannot fathom Ned "dishonoring" Ashara? My money has always been on Brandon getting her pregnant. Robert is another possibility. In both scenarios, I could see Ned doing the right thing by proposing to her to cover either Brandon's or Robert's ass. 

Why not Ned? Brandon and Robert are more likely but I could see ned they're both young and not promised to anyone.

[bemused]

 

3 - Ashara was not "dishonored" by Stark, but rather she "looked to" (probably Ned) Stark in a time of need

 

ETA: following up on #2 - If it was Ned and Ashara who become lovers, it's entirely possible that they actually promised to marry one another.  If Arthur knew this, and loved his sister, it is extremely unlikely that he would be angry at Ned for getting Ashara pregnant...  Unless he was a complete asshole.  It wasn't Ned's fault that Brandon died and the rebellion began, forcing him to marry Catelyn and fight on the other side.  It's quite clear from what we hear from Edric that the Daynes hold zero ill will against Ned, even though he personally killed Arthur. 

 

Dishonored does not necessarily mean knocked up.  She could have been dishonored at Harrenhal because she got caught kissing someone.  And then later, with her reputation gone, she got pregnant.
------

We have no evidence that her (alleged) suicide stems from the events at Harrenhal.  Barristan (who wasn't there) thinks she killed herself out of grief at losing her baby--and maybe [please note this is a maybe on top of second-hand info] losing her lover as well.  Edric, who wasn't even born until three years later, was told by others (most likely Allyria who also may have gotten her info from others) that Ashara and Ned were in love.  He doesn't say that Ned fathered her child.  

 

-----

But it has been suggested before that Ashara might have been attacked by the king.  And if that happened, and she thought for even a moment that Arthur would act if he knew, she would have kept the truth from him at all costs.  In fact if Rhaegar dishonored her, she couldn't tell Arthur.  And she couldn't tell Elia in either case.  Her options were extremely limited if a member of the royal family destroyed her reputation.  In fact her only hope if her father and/or elder brother wasn't present might be to go to a member of a powerful house (like the Starks) for help.

 

I like all of these thoughts.

 

if Ned and Ashara fell in love - we know of no marriage plans being nutured by Rickard for Ned, yet.. seeing as both came from old powerful families, the couple might have thought they had a chance to win their families' approval. Surely the Daynes would be a prominent enough family for Rickard and if he had southron ambitions ,they'd certainly be satisfied.

 

I also want to give Brandon the hothead a bit of a break here.. it's one thing to start an affair with the daughter of your father's bannerman ..especially if you don't yet know he's negotiating something farther afield at the time you start it (and especially when it's been common practice to marry sons to daughters of bannermen) . It's something else to seduce a daughter of one of the most storied families in the realm after you know you're soon to be married.

 

Speaking of Brandon, Cat tells Jaime.. “He was on his way to Riverrun when... ...when he heard about Lyanna, and went to King’s Landing instead. It was a rash thing to do.” She remembered how her own father had raged when the news had been brought to Riverrun. The gallant fool, was what he called Brandon.

 

While GRRM confirms that Brandon was "certainly no virgin" , I think people are too quick to pigeonhole him with Robert.

 

If someone forced himself on Ashara ,I don't believe it was a Stark ...and if there was consensual sex, I think it would have been Ned. ( Brandon's engagement must not have been a secret by then, and even if he would have been so un-gallant, she would surely have had more sense.)

[joluoto2]

1. He was a member of the King's Guard, He can't run around challenge people just like that.

 

2. The timeline is fuzzy as usual. Ashara and Brandon/Ned had their thing most likely just before the war broke out. Maybe at Harrenhal, maybe later. Ser Arthur would probably not have a chance to run into Brandon/Ned being busy serving Aerys and Rhaegar. We know he and Whent were with Rhaegar when Lyanna was taken.

 

3. If it was Ned Arthur almost got his revenge, though it doesn't seem that was on his mind (at least from Ned's memories, and considering Ned never even think of the possibility I think Brandon is a more likely father).

[TRLR]

Why not Ned? Brandon and Robert are more likely but I could see ned they're both young and not promised to anyone.

 

I didn't say it can't be Ned it's just that Brandon and Robert are more likely to. If Ned and Ashara are in love or fell in love, I could see Ned making his intentions known. They are both unattached and both their families could benefit from their union. This whole cloak and dagger stuff suggests that Ashara has a lover and it ain't Ned.  

[Sansa Snow]

I wonder what kind of relationship did Arthur and Ashara have, and how attached Arthur was to his family. It's a lucky coincidence, that Ashara got pregnant and had to leave the court just before Arthur got involved in something the Mad King would probably not appreciate. Sometimes I think if Ashara's pregnancy was just a rumour to get her out of King's landing to Starfall, somewhere safe so that the Mad King could not use her against Arthur.

[Jon's Queen Consort]

Μethinks for various reasons. Maybe the one who dishonored her wasn't a Stark. Maybe she had consensual sex and only Barri thought that is was dishonored. Maybe her "dishonor" wasn't something sexual.

[The Answer]

Considering Dayne is the greatest sword in the Kingdoms, I don't think the royal family would have much fear of Arthur losing in single combat.  Especially considering how close Rheagar & Arthur are, it would be up to Arthur.  In the current KG, I don't think the royal family would trust one of the Knights to fight for their personal house risking losing their sword for the King.

 

Which leads me to believe Dayne had no intention of challenging Ned or Brandon because he knew they had nothing to do with Ashara's dishonoring because she was not dishonored.  There is only a tight circle of people that knows Ashara was involved with Howland - Arthur is one of them.  

[Perrin Stark]

Ashara wasn't "dishonored." Selmy is jealous that Ashara choose Ned. It was known that Ned and Ashara had loved each other, Cat stated as much in a POV chapter in Game of Thrones in her inner monologue, I cannot remember the quote. Now if you want to say that Ashara's suicide was a part of one of Varys's plots to put a Targaryen back on the throne by becoming Septa Lemure and helping raise fAegon, then that's a theory I can get behind. Otherwise I think we are just trying to look to deep into a quote by a man that was upset that the woman he loved wanted someone else.