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BearQueen87

R+L=J v. 152

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It wasn't so much Rickard was the mastermind. The point was that the Empire was falling apart and the Targs where fast approaching their sell by date. There were increasing rebellions since the dragons vanished and got a bit bolder every time. Without the dragons the Targs had no real power. Egg's attempts at political marriages failed and then he killed off most of the family.

Harranhall harkens back to the tourney in the Egg story giving conspiritors a chance to meet. Rhaeger was trying to salvage the dynasty but their days were numbered.

They never intermarried in the past to prevent something like Tyrion Lannister becoming Lord of Winterfell from ever happening.

The conspirators might not have even wanted an Iron Throne and wanted to break up into independent realms.

The kingdom had enjoyed almost two decades of relative peace and prosperity and was not even close to falling apart when Ned was fostered, and when Brandon and Cat betrothed. Ned was fostered beginning around 271 AC, and Brandon and Cat seem to have been betrothed before Aerys wiped out Duskendale. Likely only the Lyanna and Robert betrothal occurred after Duskendale, after which Aerys didn't even leave the Red Keep until Harrenhal. Most of Aerys' abuses had been within the Red Keep, and not against great houses. Until he executed Rickard and Brandon. They also had good reason to think they had someone to work with after Aerys in Rhaegar. The great houses had no real reason to consider overthrowing the Targaryens as a whole until Lyanna was kidnapped and Aerys executed the Starks and made known his intention to execute the new Stark lord and Baratheon lord. Even then, Ned had to agree to honor Brandon's betrothal himself, and Jon had to agree to marry Lysa for the Tullys to join in the war. And the Lannisters didn't join until the last moment, the sack. I do wonder if Rhaegar made contact with some lords, and if so which (Tywin is my bet if he actually already had a co-conspirator). But I think Rickard's ambitions were to have descendants on the Iron Throne, and perhaps eventually a Targ bride for a Stark lord. I think Ned was the first Stark in his line to consider removing the Targs.

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Then again, he ultimately trusted Rhaegar in sending ravens to Tywin, and to lead the forces at the Trident.


Yeah but at that point Rhaegar had a vested interest since it was his crown in jeopardy as well. If the Targs lost, they were done.

Robert was also a rival for Lyanna, if Rhaegar wanted her then he would have to deal with Robert sooner or later.

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Yeah but at that point Rhaegar had a vested interest since it was his crown in jeopardy as well. If the Targs lost, they were done.Robert was also a rival for Lyanna, if Rhaegar wanted her then he would have to deal with Robert sooner or later.


This always made me wonder why he could not show up earlier.
His crown was in jeopardy. His family was in the risk. His kingdom was in war and his lover's fiancée was fighting desperately there.
But he hid in TOJ until Hightower dragged him back.

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This always made me wonder why he could not show up earlier.
His crown was in jeopardy. His family was in the risk. His kingdom was in war and his lover's fiancée was fighting desperately there.
But he hid in TOJ until Hightower dragged him back.

Maybe he wanted to be sure, that the child would be born safely. Or maybe he didn't think the city would be sacked? 

A thought that has also occurred to me is, maybe he thought raising TPTWP was more important or urgent than defeating his claim to the throne and the crown?

 

He lived for the prophecy. Not for the IT.

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Maybe he wanted to be sure, that the child would be born safely. Or maybe he didn't think the city would be sacked? 
A thought that has also occurred to me is, maybe he thought raising TPTWP was more important or urgent than defeating his claim to the throne and the crown?
 
He lived for the prophecy. Not for the IT.


Actually rhaegar's plan was to show up with a 18 year old Jon to directly save the world.

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This always made me wonder why he could not show up earlier.
His crown was in jeopardy. His family was in the risk. His kingdom was in war and his lover's fiancée was fighting desperately there.
But he hid in TOJ until Hightower dragged him back.

 

How long was he at the ToJ??? 

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How long was he at the ToJ???


Not very clear. George did not make it very clear for some reason.
But he ran off some time before the rebellion started.
He came back shortly before battle of trident which was the last battle of the rebellion.
after that sack of KL happened in a couple of weeks and rebellion ended.
The whole rebellion lasted one year.

So it is safe to say rhaegar stayed in TOJ for almost one year. Or slightly less than one year.

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What do you exactly mean by this?


Oh. I am just joking.
Rhaegar wanted to keep hiding until his savior son is old enough to defeat others.
You know, in case somebody hurt Jon if they live in KL or DS.
Savior had to be safe.

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Oh. I am just joking.
Rhaegar wanted to keep hiding until his savior son is old enough to defeat others.
You know, in case somebody hurt Jon if they live in KL or DS.
Savior had to be safe.


I thought so...haha didn't want to surmise too much though.

But yes you're right.

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Not very clear. George did not make it very clear for some reason.
But he ran off some time before the rebellion started.
He came back shortly before battle of trident which was the last battle of the rebellion.
after that sack of KL happened in a couple of weeks and rebellion ended.
The whole rebellion lasted one year.

So it is safe to say rhaegar stayed in TOJ for almost one year. Or slightly less than one year.

It's possible. But the text never says anyone "stayed" in the tower of joy. Never says if anyone was even in the tower when Ned finds the KG there. 
 

So, we really don't know where Rhaegar was or why he didn't come back sooner. Especially since he helped make the mess.

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It's possible. But the text never says anyone "stayed" in the tower of joy. Never says if anyone was even in the tower when Ned finds the KG there. 
 
So, we really don't know where Rhaegar was or why he didn't come back sooner. Especially since he helped make the mess.


What? Rhaegar was found in TOJ by white bull and his dad recalled him back to his duties.
How come he was not in TOJ?
Ned was looking for lyanna and had to kill KG to get into TOJ, how come she was not in TOJ?
She was not in a cave of red mountain.

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What? Rhaegar was found in TOJ by white bull and his dad recalled him back to his duties.
How come he was not in TOJ?
Ned was looking for lyanna and had to kill KG to get into TOJ, how come she was not in TOJ?
She was not in a cave of red mountain.

To the best of my memory, texts don't say where Hightower found Rhaegar. Happy to be corrected.

 

Nothing in text says Ned had to kill KG to get into tower of joy. Nothing in text says Ned wanted to get into the tower of joy.

 

Tower of joy scene gives us very little.

 

Don't know how long the KG have been there.

Don't know if they were staying there or if they just got there.

Don't know why the KG are there.

Don't know what they think or want re: Lyanna or Jon. KG never mention or reference either of them.

Don't know what they think of Rhaegar, or Viserys, or Rhaella--Ned mentions the last two. The KG mention none.

Only Targaryen they reference is Aerys.

Don't know if the KG have any plans or not.

Don't know if anyone is in the tower or not.

 

And we do not know where Lyanna was. Only know that Ned found her in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Could that have been in the tower? Text doesn't say one way or the other.

 

Fortunately, the core aspects of RLJ--that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents--in no way depend on anyone's having been in the tower. So, no worries.

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To the best of my memory, texts don't say where Hightower found Rhaegar. Happy to be corrected.
 
Nothing in text says Ned had to kill KG to get into tower of joy. Nothing in text says Ned wanted to get into the tower of joy.
 
Tower of joy scene gives us very little.
 
Don't know how long the KG have been there.
Don't know if they were staying there or if they just got there.
Don't know why the KG are there.
Don't know what they think or want re: Lyanna or Jon. KG never mention or reference either of them.
Don't know what they think of Rhaegar, or Viserys, or Rhaella--Ned mentions the last two. The KG mention none.
Only Targaryen they reference is Aerys.
Don't know if the KG have any plans or not.
Don't know if anyone is in the tower or not.
 
And we do not know where Lyanna was. Only know that Ned found her in a room that smelled of blood and roses. Could that have been in the tower? Text doesn't say one way or the other.
 
Fortunately, the core aspects of RLJ--that Rhaegar and Lyanna are Jon's parents--in no way depend on anyone's having been in the tower. So, no worries.

Let us see the official App quote for rhaegar's entry.

" but the prince could not be found for the first months of the war. Rumor had it that he was in the south with Lyanna, at a place he called the Tower of Joy, near the red mountains of Dorne. But eventually his father sent Ser Gerold Hightower to recall Rhaegar to his duties, though Rhaegar ordered Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur and Ser Oswell to keep guard over Lyanna in the south."

They were in TOJ.
Three guards were ordered by rhaegar to stay.
Ned went to same TOJ to search for his sister.
Ned fought with three KG.
Ned threw down TOJ to bury them.

I do not understand why these could not be true.

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Let us see the official App quote for rhaegar's entry.

" but the prince could not be found for the first months of the war. Rumor had it that he was in the south with Lyanna, at a place he called the Tower of Joy, near the red mountains of Dorne. But eventually his father sent Ser Gerold Hightower to recall Rhaegar to his duties, though Rhaegar ordered Ser Gerold, Ser Arthur and Ser Oswell to keep guard over Lyanna in the south."

They were in TOJ.
Three guards were ordered by rhaegar to stay.
Ned went to same TOJ to search for his sister.
Ned fought with three KG.
Ned threw down TOJ to bury them.

I do not understand why these could not be true.

My apologies--I did not mean to imply that the bolded could not be true. Your statements certainly could be true.

 

But neither the texts nor the quote you give from the app say where Rhaegar actually was--let alone answer the rest of the list I gave above.

 

The tower of joy scene is surprisingly open to interpretation. The interp you've given is completely possible. But, given the gaps in the scene and the rest of the text, it is not the only option. Not with that much information missing. 

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My apologies--I did not mean to imply that the bolded could not be true. Your statements certainly could be true.
 
But neither the texts nor the quote you give from the app say where Rhaegar actually was--let alone answer the rest of the list I gave above.
 
The tower of joy scene is surprisingly open to interpretation. The interp you've given is completely possible. But, given the gaps in the scene and the rest of the text, it is not the only option. Not with that much information missing.


I agree there are a lot of mysteries for rhaegar's missing.
Many of your questions, we do not know answers yet.
But we had some sort of rough timeline and general idea.
Big storyline was clear:

Rhaegar got lyanna with arthur and Oswell.
They went to TOJ and hide.
Rhaegar was recalled by Hightower.
Three KG guarded lyanna.
Ned went to TOJ after war.
Lyanna died.
Ned took jon.

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I agree there are a lot of mysteries for rhaegar's missing.
Many of your questions, we do not know answers yet.
But we had some sort of rough timeline and general idea.
Big storyline was clear:

Rhaegar got lyanna with arthur and Oswell.
They went to TOJ and hide.
Rhaegar was recalled by Hightower.
Three KG guarded lyanna.
Ned went to TOJ after war.
Lyanna died.
Ned took jon.

I agree some of the storyline is clear.

 

Rhaegar gives Lyanna rose crown at Harrenhal (context to be determined)

General knowledge (but no direct evidence) says Rhaegar and Co. "fell" on Lyanna some time after Harrenhal.

Them Rhaegar and Lyanna are AWOL.

Hightower sent after Rhaegar.

Rhaegar returns to KL, has a conversation with Jaime, and dies at the Trident.

 

We don't know if Rhaegar and Lyanna went to the tower of joy. Ned thinks "it was said that Rhaegar called this place the tower of joy"--no source. No context. No evidence of whether or not Ned believes the statement. Ned was very uncooperative about letting readers inside his head. (Almost like he didn't realize he was helping to narrate a novel . . . grumble, grumble.)

 

We don't know if the KG "guarded" Lyanna. Seems very possible given multiple scenarios. But if they did guard her, don't know the context. And we do not know if Lyanna or Jon were at the tower. Don't know if the KG are guarding anyone or anything at the tower.

 

Ned got to the tower. Was that his actual destination? Text doesn't say--uncooperative dreams. Text can be read as Ned's being surprised to see the KG. So. . was Ned going to the toj? Or was he going somewhere else via the Prince's Pass and just "found" the KG? 

 

Last two--Lyanna died. Confirmed by text. And text VERY strongly implies that Jon is Lyanna's. All good there.

 

But even with all of those gaps, as I said above, RLJ still holds just fine.

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If Ned hadn't showed up what was their plan?

Where would Lyanna go if her husband was dead. Maybe Her dear Brother, Lord Eddard Stark of Winterfell? Why look who it is, none other than the person she would likely run to. Lets kill him!

So what was the KGs plan? Just guard the Tower indefinitely till little Jon came of age? Until Lyanna died and then take lil jon to safety? Were they to seat the bastard child on the throne simply because Arthur was badass and could fight Roberts army alone? If they got new orders from Robert would they follow those?

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Not very clear. George did not make it very clear for some reason.
But he ran off some time before the rebellion started.
He came back shortly before battle of trident which was the last battle of the rebellion.
after that sack of KL happened in a couple of weeks and rebellion ended.
The whole rebellion lasted one year.

So it is safe to say rhaegar stayed in TOJ for almost one year. Or slightly less than one year.

When Rhaegar returned to KL, is unknown. So stating it was shortly before the Trident... We don't know that..

Rhaegar couldn't be found for the first few months of the war. After the Battle of the Bells, Hightower was sent to find Rhaegar... How long after the battle? That's the first question. How long did it take him? That's the second. And we don't have an answer for either.

There were rumours that Rhaegar was at a place 'he called the Tower of Joy'.. did Hightower know of those rumours? Did he know where that tower was? Even if he knew exactly where that tower was, ut would have taken him quite some time to get there, and Rhaegar an equal amount of time to get back.

Between the Battle of the Bells and the Trident some seven-ish months passed. Did it take Hightower half a year to find Rhaegar? A bit unlikely, if you ask me. Especially if there already were rumours about Rhaegars location.

So I wouldn't call it 'shortly'. It could have been that Rhaegar returned a few months before the Trident. it could have been a few weeks. It could have been anything in between.

Or am I forgetting something?

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