UnmaskedLurker Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 So many posts today -- hard to keep up with all the action, but I will try to respond as much as I can: purple eyes-- I don't think Jon was any less considered to be assumed to be next in line than Joffrey. I think that the best evidence is that polygamy was never outlawed in Westeros after Maegor. Further, based on Maegor's situation, it seems clear that unlike modern laws on this planet, the laws in Westeros seem to work differently. Aenys did not seem to have the power to dissolve Maegor's polygamous marriage -- only punishment could be extracted. So Maegor was exiled for the polygamy -- but the marriage stood and apparently there was no way to say it was not a marriage. Under US laws, the second marriage would be dissolved and treated as not a marriage -- but the laws in Westeros appear to be different. And the fact that Rhaegar was potentially subject to sanction by Aerys for a polygamous marriage may explain in part why he remained in hiding as long as he did. I think that you conflate what is legal with what is generally acceptable in that society. Polygamy was not generally practiced and incest among any others than Targs was not done (other than Craster, who is universally vilified for the practice). So Robb does not have options available because he does not want to go against convention. Rhaegar generally also would not go against convention -- but I think his view of the prophecy pushed him to decide to have a polygamous marriage with Lyanna. LV-- I believe we have had this discussion before, so I assume you are expressing your points for the benefit of others. We have no reason to assume that someone who gets word of the deaths of Aegon and Aerys also would hear about a "royal decree" (or whatever it was, if it really even existed). I have previously posited numerous possible reasons why the decree would not be as widely known, such as the war effort being more urgent than announcing a new heir or not wanting to make Dorne any more upset so not releasing information during the war, etc. Given that we cannot assume this information was as widely known as the deaths, we look to see whether other evidence supports the notion that Viserys as new heir was not widely known. Statements by Dany that if he had not been killed, Aegon would have become King and the way that KG speak of V at ToJ all support the notion that any naming was not widely known. We simply don't have enough information and there simply is no reason to assume one way or the other. Given that other clues support that no one thought V was named by Aerys, I don't know why so many others assume it was widely known. As to the Joffrey/Jon analogy, Selmy says that his place is beside Joffrey -- before the coronation. Apparently, the new "King" gets protection even before the coronation -- which makes sense as they would not want to risk attack between death of the old King and coronation of the new. Only the direct order from Ned -- who had the authority of the King as Hand -- prevented Selmy from going to Joffrey. As to the idea of a special assignment continuing -- perhaps -- but here the only three remaining KG who were not dead/incapacitated/betrayer were on that special mission. It is preposterous to suggest that all 3 need to continue to obey Rhaegar's orders and stay at ToJ when V has not protection on DS from any KG. And the KG state that Darry is not KG and that is why it is fine that he went to DS -- not that Darry was OK to go to DS because he was ordered to be there (as he was). Why state that point about Darry not being KG unless at this point in time, the KG have other duties that preclude them being on DS. Finally, there was no way for Rhaegar to give them new orders as he is dead and so how long are they supposed to continue to guard the tower -- forever? As to the polygamy issue, I think that you might be confusing earlier versions of WOIAF that were part of public reading that I think you attended (or at least were promoting the report of its contents) and what was finally published. If my recollection is correct, then the change from what you recall to what I have found in a search suggests that GRRM wanted to make clear that Maegor did not only have one lawful wife. Doing a search of the text, here is what I found regarding the second marriage and exile: Queen Visenya proposed that Maegor be wed to Aenys's first child, Rhaena, but the High Septon mounted a vigorous protest, and Maegor was wed instead to the High Septon's own niece, Lady Ceryse of House Hightower. But that proved a barren marriage, while Aenys's bore more fruit, as Rhaena was followed by his son and heir, Aegon, and later Viserys, Jaehaerys, and Alysanne. Perhaps envious, after two years as Hand—and the birth to his brother of yet another daughter, Vaella, who died as an infant—Maegor shocked the realm in 39 AC by announcing that he had taken a second wife—Alys of House Harroway—in secret. He had wed her in a Valyrian ceremony officiated by Queen Visenya for want of a septon willing to wed them. The public outcry was such that Aenys was finally forced to exile his brother. Aenys seemed content to let the matter lie with Maegor's exile, but the High Septon was still not satisfied. Not even the appointment of the reputed miracle-worker, Septon Murmison, as Aenys's new Hand could wholly repair the breach with the Faith. And in 41 AC, Aenys made matters worse when he chose to wed his eldest daughter, Rhaena, to his son and heir, Aegon, whom he named Prince of Dragonstone in Maegor's place. From the Starry Sept came a denunciation such as no king had ever received before, addressed to "King Abomination"—and suddenly pious lords and even the smallfolk who had once loved Aenys turned against him. Nothing in this text says that Maegor was told to go back to his "lawful wife" or that the second marriage was not valid. And the Faith get even more upset over the incest of Aenys's children, but no one suggests that marriage is not a marriage. You have no textual support for the proposition that a polygamous marriage is invalid -- only that someone can be punished for it if they did it without proper permission. Please cite me to any textual support for your assertion regarding the legality of polygamous marriages. Sly Wren-- Yes, we can agree to disagree. :cheers: I am still waiting, however, for someone (not necessarily you -- just anyone) to provide me with a better theory that explains all the clues in a more comprehensive and persuasive manner than the theory I put forward. All I see is picking at one issue or the other -- not an overall thesis that explains all the available clues as well. King of the Narrow Sea-- Rhaegar's order did not end with his death -- I agree. But when the other KG are all either dead, incapacitated or have betrayed the Targs, and the King and most of the royals are dead, and the rightful new King is on DS with no KG protection, the KG cannot just continue to mindlessly obey Rheagar's orders in contravention of the main purpose for which the KG were created -- to protect the King. In particular, given that they are the last 3 KG that are loyal to the Targs -- at least one of them needs to go to the new King or there is no point in them existing at all. If they are loyal to the Targ dynasty, then they need to ensure the continuation of the Targ dynasty. If Viserys is the rightful King, then they need to ensure he survives. The fact that they don't go to DS, that they expressly point out that Darry is not KG and therefore free to be on DS with V, all point out to me that the KG do not consider V to be King -- thus they must think Jon is King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Crystal clear, and logical :-) You mean, like Rhaenyra didn't have the power to marry Daemon, or Aegon's kids to marry each other? Had Aerys got wind of it, he almost certainly would have forbidden it (see Rhaenyra's first attempt). Thus, better to ask forgiveness than permission, and even better to ask once the bride gets pregnant. For some reason, running away and hiding for some time is a pattern which even RL couples use when they want to get married againsttheir parents' will. Not so much the Rebels but the Lannisters, and the new king was condoning it. That new king to whom Ned was sworn and bound to reveal the existence of Lyanna's baby. He perhaps named Viserys and there is no mention of Aegon being completely disinherited. Saying the same thing twice doesn't make it any truer. Because his surname was not Targaryen. Only the Targs answered to neither gods nor men and were a law unto themselves. He said that people are less likely to object. He never said that you stand zero chance of getting what you want without dragons. Funny, mormons did just that - reinstated a custom centuries dead. He couldn't pull a public marriage because it would have been forbidden. There is no way to dissolve a vow and a marriage once it is consummated. Thus, Tyrion is still married to Tysha if the poor girl lives, and his marriage to Sansa can be nullified. BTW, purple-eyes,didn't you use to go under a different nick here? I seem to recall this very argumentation from before. Sorry I did not see your post. Not very sure what do you mean by Raenyra and Daemon and Aegon's kids. None of them got married when they have another living spouse. Both Rahenyra and Daemon lost their spouse, after that they married. No polygamy issue. Although they married very quickly after the deaths of their spouses which caused a big scandal. Aegon's kids were both unmarried. Rhaegar had a much bigger issue because his wife was alive!!!! That is why he can not just marry Lyanna secretly to make it valid. It is not about how he got married (publicly or secretly), it is about he is not qualified for marriage due to his current marriage. If he was a single man, he could marry secretly and come back and nobody can say the marriage was not valid. Like Aegon''s kids. But he is a married man. This simple. And no, I did not have a different nickname. You do not need to mention Mormon. There are plenty countries you can marry more wives nowadays. But in the whole series, we did not even see a single case for polygamy. It is not something people recognize widely. Targ can do whatever they want to do because they have nuclear weapons (aka dragon in this book). But Rhaegar did not have a dragon. He was not even a king. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MtnLion Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 <cough> old-father <cough> Craster <cough> GRRM's promise to write one if need be (is it just possible that R+L is just that?) <cough> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Sorry I did not see your post. Not very sure what do you mean by Raenyra and Daemon and Aegon's kids. None of them got married when they have another living spouse. Both Rahenyra and Daemon lost their spouse, after that they married. No polygamy issue. Although they married very quickly after the deaths of their spouses which caused a big scandal. Aegon's kids were both unmarried. Rhaegar had a much bigger issue because his wife was alive!!!! That is why he can not just marry Lyanna secretly to make it valid. It is not about how he got married (publicly or secretly), it is about he is not qualified for marriage due to his current marriage. If he was a single man, he could marry secretly and come back and nobody can say the marriage was not valid. Like Aegon''s kids. But he is a married man. This simple. And no, I did not have a different nickname. You do not need to mention Mormon. There are plenty countries you can marry more wives nowadays. But in the whole series, we did not even see a single case for polygamy. It is not something people recognize widely. Targ can do whatever they want to do because they have nuclear weapons (aka dragon in this book). But Rhaegar did not have a dragon. He was not even a king. I don't know if you read my post to you and LV above, but I go into detail on what WOIAF says about Maegor taking a second wife. It does NOT say that the second marriage was not valid. It states that Aenys gave into pressure and exiled Maegor. So getting married to a second wife without permission can lead to punishment but not to disregarding the second marriage. The laws on Westeros do not work like US laws. It appears that a marriage is a marriage -- even if incest or polygamy is involved. The question is one of punishment -- not validity of the marriage. As I suggested above, I believe one of the reasons Rhaegar was in hiding was due to the polygamous nature of the marriage. Rhaegar knew that if Aerys did not accept the marriage, Rhaegar might have to go into exile. I think Rhaegar believed he had to take that risk -- but that coming back to KL with both wife and child might make Aerys more likely to accept the marriage. If Aerys did not accept the marriage, I suspect that Rhaegar was ready to go to Essos with his two wives and 3 children and prepare them to be the 3 heads of the dragon. His belief that he needed to provide the world with the 3 heads seems to supersede any notion of doing what was normally accepted in society -- so he married a second woman. Based on the laws of Westeros, the 3 KG had to accept that this marriage was a real marriage. The only precedent available to them indicated the marriage was a real marriage -- so Jon was next line under normal succession rules. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Here are many vows. they should not break any one. Nothing said when you feel necessary, you can disobey the order because you think your king is somewhere else. Okay, which vow is that? Is that the one that Ned refers to? His sword helped taint the throne you sit on, Ned thought, but did not permit the words to pass his lips. "He swore a vow to protect his king's life with his own. Then he opened that king's throat with a sword." If it is some other vow, please prove that Ned knows it. This dream means something to Ned, he knows what they are referring to when they choose to fight rather than retreat. "So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his." "I swore a vow . . . " ". . . not to wed or father children." If the queen had commanded me to protect Hizdahr, I would have no choice but to obey. "When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey." Ser Barristan Selmy was the first to answer the summons, immaculate in white cloak and enameled scales. "My lords," he said, "my place is beside the young king now. Pray give me leave to attend him." "Your place is here, Ser Barristan," Ned told him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Here are many vows. they should not break any one. Nothing said when you feel necessary, you can disobey the order because you think your king is somewhere else. "So many vows . . . they make you swear and swear. Defend the king. Obey the king. Keep his secrets. Do his bidding. Your life for his." "I swore a vow . . . " ". . . not to wed or father children." If the queen had commanded me to protect Hizdahr, I would have no choice but to obey. "When you donned that cloak, you promised to obey." Ser Barristan Selmy was the first to answer the summons, immaculate in white cloak and enameled scales. "My lords," he said, "my place is beside the young king now. Pray give me leave to attend him." "Your place is here, Ser Barristan," Ned told him. Great quotes, but I think they prove the opposite of what you think they prove. The point of these quotes is that duties can come into conflict and a KG needs to use judgment to figure out what to do (so in some sense they have to choose which of conflicting duties to obey). It also suggests that there is some sort of hierarchy of duties, such as a specific order of the King supersedes other duties. But here we have a potential conflict -- obey Rhaegar's orders or protect the new King -- which can easily be addressed by splitting up. If one or two KG stay at ToJ and one or two go to DS, then both Lyanna is being guarded and the new King is being guarded. The suggestion that the KG will conclude that the old orders from a dead prince needs to be obeyed at the cost of the new King having no KG guard at all -- a dereliction of the very purpose for which the KG were created -- makes no sense. The KG would send at least one KG to DS -- unless Viserys is not considered to be King. And the way they talk about Viserys and Darry supports the theory that they do not consider V to be King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 I don't know if you read my post to you and LV above, but I go into detail on what WOIAF says about Maegor taking a second wife. It does NOT say that the second marriage was not valid. It states that Aenys gave into pressure and exiled Maegor. So getting married to a second wife without permission can lead to punishment but not to disregarding the second marriage. The laws on Westeros do not work like US laws. It appears that a marriage is a marriage -- even if incest or polygamy is involved. The question is one of punishment -- not validity of the marriage. As I suggested above, I believe one of the reasons Rhaegar was in hiding was due to the polygamous nature of the marriage. Rhaegar knew that if Aerys did not accept the marriage, Rhaegar might have to go into exile. I think Rhaegar believed he had to take that risk -- but that coming back to KL with both wife and child might make Aerys more likely to accept the marriage. If Aerys did not accept the marriage, I suspect that Rhaegar was ready to go to Essos with his two wives and 3 children and prepare them to be the 3 heads of the dragon. His belief that he needed to provide the world with the 3 heads seems to supersede any notion of doing what was normally accepted in society -- so he married a second woman. Based on the laws of Westeros, the 3 KG had to accept that this marriage was a real marriage. The only precedent available to them indicated the marriage was a real marriage -- so Jon was next line under normal succession rules. Just like somebody else mentioned before, there was no special announcement to declare Maegor's second marriage invalid, true, but this is because it was by default an invalid one due to your current valid marriage. The point is that you can not have two valid marriage at the same time. If you do, then you are out of this society because you broke the rule. Maegor's second marriage would not be recognized in Seven kingdom. Of course later he married six wives, but this was made by his dragon power. If you only needs to be punished but still you can have a valid second wife and your bastard children can be legitimate, I bet many men are glad to take that punishment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Sorry you are making stuff up. There is nothing to suggest that the 2nd marriage was automatically invalid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Great quotes, but I think they prove the opposite of what you think they prove. The point of these quotes is that duties can come into conflict and a KG needs to use judgment to figure out what to do (so in some sense they have to choose which of conflicting duties to obey). It also suggests that there is some sort of hierarchy of duties, such as a specific order of the King supersedes other duties. But here we have a potential conflict -- obey Rhaegar's orders or protect the new King -- which can easily be addressed by splitting up. If one or two KG stay at ToJ and one or two go to DS, then both Lyanna is being guarded and the new King is being guarded. The suggestion that the KG will conclude that the old orders from a dead prince needs to be obeyed at the cost of the new King having no KG guard at all -- a dereliction of the very purpose for which the KG were created -- makes no sense. The KG would send at least one KG to DS -- unless Viserys is not considered to be King. And the way they talk about Viserys and Darry supports the theory that they do not consider V to be King. What I have seen in these quotes were that KG needs to obey the order (even Barri feel he should attend the young king, ned ordered him to stay. even Barri should guard the queen, he had to obey if Dany wanted him to guard her lover or husband. When Jiame received an order from Rhaegar, he had no choice but obey.) they promised to obey. Obey was the core and discipline. If king asked all KG to protect other people (no one for himself), KG had to obey. Otherwise KG would use king as a hostage by saying:" I think I need to protect you in stead of obeying you!" Somebody gave the case above. Rhaegar gave the order. Before the order was fulfilled, they could not disobey this order. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Sorry you are making stuff up. There is nothing to suggest that the 2nd marriage was automatically invalid. All right, not straight forward, this is fantasy not a law course. But anyway, my point is that marriage is not like a baby. You had a baby with another woman other than your wife, then people have to accept this is your son because baby was already born. But you had a marriage with another woman other than your wife, sorry, people would not accept it and would not think she is your valid wife, unless you put a sword on their throats. Rhaegar should declare a war to his father and faith to force them to accept his second marriage. He can not force them accept his second marriage by hiding and having a baby and having a secret ceremony. people would still say Lyanna is a paramour and Jon is a bastard. But of course, if GRRM said they were married, then they were married. I am just saying if Rhaegar can so easily get second marriage by just running off and hiding and having a baby together, then westeros can do a lot of second marriages. Especially poor Robb Stark. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UnmaskedLurker Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Just like somebody else mentioned before, there was no special announcement to declare Maegor's second marriage invalid, true, but this is because it was by default an invalid one due to your current valid marriage. The point is that you can not have two valid marriage at the same time. If you do, then you are out of this society because you broke the rule. Maegor's second marriage would not be recognized in Seven kingdom. Of course later he married six wives, but this was made by his dragon power. Consigliere made the point but I will ask it a different way. What textual support do you have that a second marriage automatically is invalid? We have other polygamous marriages (Craster, Oldfather, Aegon I) and no one ever suggests that the second marriages were not valid marriages. In fact, the entire royal line (other than Aegon I and Maegor) arguably would be bastards as then the marriage to Rhaenys would not be valid (as I assume it would be seen as the second marriage). So Aenys would not be eligible to be King -- absent being legitimized which did not happen because Aegon considered himself married to Rhaenys. No one on Westeros ever claims that polygamous marriages are not marriages -- just that they are not free to enter into them. They are not free due to social convention and potential penalty for such marriages. But the Targs have always been viewed as above these rules. They practice incest when no one else thinks they are free to practice incest. But an incest marriage is still a marriage. If there is evidence that a wedding took place, then on Westeros there is a marriage. Apparently there is a method if married under the Faith to dissolve by HS, but absent such a process, the marriage is treated as a marriage. All available evidence suggests that the people of Westeros cannot and do not have the ability to disregard the second marriage. A penalty can be imposed for having the second marriage -- but the marriage must be accepted as a marriage. All the evidence we have suggests as much. Again, please site one piece of textual support that a second marriage on Westeros is not really a marriage or can be regarded by those on Westeros as not a marriage. What I have seen in these quotes were that KG needs to obey the order (even Barri feel he should attend the young king, ned ordered him to stay. even Barri should guard the queen, he had to obey if Dany wanted him to guard her lover or husband. When Jiame received an order from Rhaegar, he had no choice but obey.) they promised to obey. Obey was the core and discipline. If king asked all KG to protect other people (no one for himself), KG had to obey. Otherwise KG would use king as a hostage by saying:" I think I need to protect you in stead of obeying you!" Somebody gave the case above. Rhaegar gave the order. Before the order was fulfilled, they could not disobey this order. The KG are not automatons. The circumstances changed considerably between the orders and staying at ToJ. And they state that Darry is not KG so he is free to go to DS, but the KG don't flee, then or now. No other KG was ordered to guard Lyanna. So why did they not say that Darry was free to go to DS because he was ordered there or at least was not subject to a conflicting order. They make no such point. In fact, presumably, Darry was ordered there so if following orders is what the KG at ToJ think is what is the driver of their behavior, the only sensible statement would have been to point out that Darry was ordered to go to DS. But the KG make a very different point. The point they make is that Darry can go with Viserys because he is not KG. That statement makes no sense if V is now the rightful King. And it makes no sense if what is really going on is that the KG need to stay at ToJ to fulfill orders. It only makes sense if a non-KG can go to DS because they don't have duties elsewhere -- while the KG must be where the are -- protecting the new King. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bael's Bastard Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 A marriage appears to be a done deal once its done. IIRC the same was true of Jaehaerys and Shaera. Once it was done it was done. If there is a marriage there are no bastards, whether it is an only wife or second wife. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Purple-eyes People not accepting a marriage does not make that marriage illegal. At the end of the day there is not a single shred of evidence to support the argument of polygamy being illegal. Even the author says that, if required, he can make up a case of polygamy post Maegor. This makes it quite clear that polygamy has not been established as illegal in the series. Being accepted by the masses is a different story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 A marriage appears to be a done deal once its done. IIRC the same was true of Jaehaerys and Shaera. Once it was done it was done. If there is a marriage there are no bastards, whether it is an only wife or second wife. Jaehaerys and Shaera both were unmarried. This is totally different situation. You have to be qualified for marriage then you can be considered to be married. I can just run into a basketball game and shoot a ball there. but my score would be declared as invalid because from the very beginning I am not enlisted into this game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Purple-eyes People not accepting a marriage does not make that marriage illegal. At the end of the day there is not a single shred of evidence to support the argument of polygamy being illegal. Even the author says that, if required, he can make up a case of polygamy post Maegor. This makes it quite clear that polygamy has not been established as illegal in the series. Being accepted by the masses is a different story. OK. I will have to go for dinner. We should agree to disagree. Let us wait and see if Jon snow is a true born prince and the best heir to the Iron throne or not. Let us see if a secet wedding cloak, birth certificate, Bran's vision of their secert wedding could lead Jon Snow become Jon targeryen. By the way, I think there may be indeed a polygamy case in the series, but it will be either Jon or Dany, not Rhaegar and Lyanna. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bael's Bastard Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 It's not totally different. A marriage is a marriage. There is precedent for a Targ male marrying multiple women, and zero precedent for it being illegal, able to be invalidated after the fact, or the children being bastards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackFyre > BlackFire Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Purple-eyes I can't even tell what you are arguing for anymore. Seems in some posts you are saying the KG should stay and in other posts you are arguing they should have left to protect Viserys. This is falling into one of those arguments where you make a bunch of assumptions with no evidence. How did the KG at TOJ get the information about Rhaegar's death, Viserys being king and at DS? How long ago? What else did they see/hear/do during their time with Rhaegar that may have influenced their decision? We just do not have enough information for anyone to be arguing that anything about the TOJ is so clear cut and confirmed. Maybe R and L got married and those 3 KG attended so regardless of what anyone else thinks they believe J is the rightful king. Maybe R told them he was going to KL to take care of Aerys and the rebellion and name himself king and they were on board with that since Aerys was a nutjob. Maybe they mistakenly believed that some other KG were on DS with Viserys so they did not need to go. Maybe they just found out shortly before Ned showed up and hadn't yet had time to leave and Ned's presence made him an immediate threat (in their minds) to someone they were charged with protecting so their first order of business was to take care of him. Heck, maybe they didn't believe Viserys had been named heir. I don't pretend to know all the rules of succession but if Raegar then Aerys die in a matter of a few days does Rhaegar's heir inherit or do we skip Rhaegar and go to Viserys? Do you really know that answer? I think it's important to remember how quickly all these things happened and how the KG were getting information...in the face of learning that Rhaegar, Aerys, Aegon, Rhaenys and Elia were all dead and Viserys and a pregnant Rhaella were running for their lives to DS they just stayed were they were protecting who they were ordered to protect. It was undoubtably a confusing time for them. I could make up a hundred potential reasons, but it doesn't change the facts. Which are: KG should be protecting the king King is on or on the way to DS w/o KG protection (to the best of their knowledge) They have order from Rhaegar to protect someone at TOJ They obey the order from Rhaegar rather than head to dragonstone. From that it is valid to contemplate whether someone at TOJ was, in the minds of the 3 KG at least, a legitimate heir to the throne. Making absolute declarations about anything is just plain silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Consigliere Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 OK. I will have to go for dinner. We should agree to disagree. Let us wait and see if Jon snow is a true born prince and the best heir to the Iron throne or not. Let us see if a secet wedding cloak, birth certificate, Bran's vision of their secert wedding could lead Jon Snow become Jon targeryen. By the way, I think there may be indeed a polygamy case in the series, but it will be either Jon or Dany, not Rhaegar and Lyanna. You are being a bit condescending here, no? Which is uncalled for. So Jon or Dany can engage in polygamy and that is perfectly acceptable but Rhaegar and Lyanna is a big no? Not sure I grasp your logic here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 Purple-eyes I can't even tell what you are arguing for anymore. Seems in some posts you are saying the KG should stay and in other posts you are arguing they should have left to protect Viserys. This is falling into one of those arguments where you make a bunch of assumptions with no evidence. How did the KG at TOJ get the information about Rhaegar's death, Viserys being king and at DS? How long ago? What else did they see/hear/do during their time with Rhaegar that may have influenced their decision? We just do not have enough information for anyone to be arguing that anything about the TOJ is so clear cut and confirmed. Maybe R and L got married and those 3 KG attended so regardless of what anyone else thinks they believe J is the rightful king. Maybe R told them he was going to KL to take care of Aerys and the rebellion and name himself king and they were on board with that since Aerys was a nutjob. Maybe they mistakenly believed that some other KG were on DS with Viserys so they did not need to go. Maybe they just found out shortly before Ned showed up and hadn't yet had time to leave and Ned's presence made him an immediate threat (in their minds) to someone they were charged with protecting so their first order of business was to take care of him. Heck, maybe they didn't believe Viserys had been named heir. I don't pretend to know all the rules of succession but if Raegar then Aerys die in a matter of a few days does Rhaegar's heir inherit or do we skip Rhaegar and go to Viserys? Do you really know that answer? I think it's important to remember how quickly all these things happened and how the KG were getting information...in the face of learning that Rhaegar, Aerys, Aegon, Rhaenys and Elia were all dead and Viserys and a pregnant Rhaella were running for their lives to DS they just stayed were they were protecting who they were ordered to protect. It was undoubtably a confusing time for them. I could make up a hundred potential reasons, but it doesn't change the facts. Which are: KG should be protecting the king King is on or on the way to DS w/o KG protection (to the best of their knowledge) They have order from Rhaegar to protect someone at TOJ They obey the order from Rhaegar rather than head to dragonstone. From that it is valid to contemplate whether someone at TOJ was, in the minds of the 3 KG at least, a legitimate heir to the throne. Making absolute declarations about anything is just plain silly. I am starving and I need to go. :frown5: But yeah, I am kind of lost here and I think I should have some sort of rest. My basic point is existence of KG can not prove Jon is king, it can not prove Rhaegar and Lyanna were lawfully married either. But I may be wrong of course. GRRM can write whatever he wants to write. he can even write Jon was born like a baby Jesus without a real father and Lyanna was a virgin until the very end. Maybe they were there for king and queen mother, but they could still be there for mistress and bastard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple-eyes Posted August 10, 2015 Share Posted August 10, 2015 You are being a bit condescending here, no? Which is uncalled for. So Jon or Dany can engage in polygamy and that is perfectly acceptable but Rhaegar and Lyanna is a big no? Not sure I grasp your logic here. Dragon power was something Dany and Jon may have. Rhaegar did not provide any of these, he did not even try to declare it openly. And no, I am not condescending. Sorry if I make you feel like this. I did not mean it for sure. I am just very hungry and probably a little bit low blood sugar But I still can not understand why R and L were lawfully married. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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