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BearQueen87

R+L=J v. 152

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Reference guide

The R+L=J theory claims Jon Snow most probably is the son of crown prince Rhaegar Targaryen and Ned's sister Lyanna Stark.

The Tower of the Hand has an excellent analysis of this theory:
Jon Snow's Parents

And Westeros' Citadel also provides a summary:
Jon Snow's Parents

A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Jon Snow Theories
 
Radio Westeros podcast:
A Dragon, a Wolf and a Rose
 
Frequently Asked Questions:

How can Jon be a Targaryen if ordinary fire burned his hand?
Targaryens are not immune to fire. It's a myth that has been refuted by a list of Targaryens being burned. Danaerys 'the unburnt' was indeed unscathed when she hatched the dragon eggs, but that has not stopped her being burned on other occasions. See this thread on Targaryen fire immunity.

Don't all Targaryens have hallmark Valryian silver-golden hair and purple eyes?
Not all of them: Valarr and Queen Alysanne had blue eyes. Bittersteel, who like Jon was half first men blood, had brown hair. Baelor Breakspear and his son(s) and Jon's own half-sister Rhaenys had the Dornish look (dark hair, black eyes, olive skin). Rhaenyra Targaryen's three sons all had brown hair and brown eyes even though both their parents had light silver-gold hair.
Had Jon Valyrian features, it would give his parentage away: "He had the Stark face if not the name: long, solemn, guarded, a face that gave nothing away. Whoever his mother had been, she had left little of herself in her son." Tyrion got the bit about the mother wrong, though: his mother was the Stark.

If Jon isn't Ned's son, then why does he look so much like him?
Jon looks very like Arya, and Arya looks very like Lyanna. Jon is Ned's nephew, and Lyanna and Ned looked similar.

Ned is too honourable to lie. If he says Jon is his son, doesn't that mean he must be?
Ned tells Arya that sometimes lies can be honourable. His final words, a confession of his guilt, are a lie to protect Sansa. While a lie can be honourable, cheating on his wife isn't, so Ned's famed honour points to Jon not being his son.

How can Jon be half-Targaryen and have a direwolf?
He's also half Stark, through Lyanna. Ned's trueborn children are half Tully and that doesn't stop them having direwolves.

Why doesn't Ned ever think about Lyanna being Jon's mother?
Ned doesn't think about anyone being Jon's mother. If he did, there would be no mystery. He names 'Wylla' to Robert, but we do not see him thinking of Wylla being Jon's mother.
There's a hidden hint at who Jon's mother might be: In chapter 4, Eddard's internal monologue goes "Lyanna ... Ned had loved her with all his heart." and in chapter 6, Catelyn thinks "Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely".

Why would Ned not at least tell Catelyn?
We don't have a list of what Ned promised to Lyanna, but know he takes his promises seriously. Maybe he promised not to tell anyone. In Chapter 45, Ned is uncertain what Cat would do if it came to Jon's life over that of her own children. If Catelyn knew that Jon was Rhaegar's son, she might feel that keeping him at Winterfell presented a serious risk to her own children. Ultimately, Catelyn did not need to know, so maybe Ned simply chose to be on the safe side.

Doesn't Ned refer to Robb and Jon as "my sons in the very first chapter?
In speech, not in thought. Ned is keeping Jon's parentage secret. He never thinks of Jon as his son: In Chapter 45, Ned thinks of his children "Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon and explicitly excludes Jon from the list. ADwD Chapter 34 has Bran's vision of younger Ned in the Winterfell godswood: "...let them grow up close as brothers, with only love between them," he prayed, "and let my lady wife find it in her heart to forgive..." which not make sense if they are brothers.

Since Rhaegar was already married, wouldn't Jon still be a bastard?
He might, or might not. There was a tradition of polygamy among Targaryens in the past, so the possibility that Rhaegar and Lyanna married is not easily ruled out. A pro-legitimacy argument is this: The presence of the three kingsguards at the Tower of Joy is best explained if they were defending the heir to the throne, which Jon would only be if he was legitimate.

Can we be certain polygamy is not illegal?
Aegon I and Maegor I practised polygamy. In Westeros, unlike a constitutional monarchy, royals are not subject to the law. So if there ever was a law against it, it did not apply to the Targaryens: In Chapter 33 it says "like their dragons the Targaryens answered to neither gods nor men". Examples demonstrate that it was considered an option for Targaryens: Aegon IV and Daemon Blackfyre may have considered it for Daemon, Jorah Mormont suggested it to Daenerys as a viable option, and she said the same about Quentyn Martell.
George R.R. Martin says in this SSM: "If you have a dragon, you can have as many wives as you want". There is also this SSM predating the worldbook.
On Polygamy essay by Ygrain with additions by Rhaenys_Targaryen

Weren't the Kingsguard at Tower of Joy on the basis of an order from Aerys, to guard Lyanna as a hostage?
If so, why would they have apparently made no effort to use this leverage against Robert and Ned? Some argue their Kingsguard vows would have taken precedence and still have required them to leave the Tower to protect Viserys when he became heir -- unless there was another that took precedence [Jon]. Others think they were guarding Lyanna as a hostage at the Tower of Joy. Some say that makes little sense: She would better be kept hostage at King's Landing, and wouldn't require kingsguards to guard her. The mere presence of three kingsguards implies something more important: guarding members of the royal family or maybe the heir.
Frequently suggested readings: At the tower of joy by MtnLion and support of the toj analysis by Ygrain

Isn't there an SSM that says the 3 Kingsguard were following Rhaegar's orders though?
The SSM you may be thinking of is probably this: The King's Guards don't get to make up their own orders. They serve the king, they protect the king and the royal family, but they're also bound to obey their orders, and if Prince Rhaegar gave them a certain order, they would do that. They can't say, "No we don't like that order, we'll do something else."
We know from Barristan, protecting the king is the first and most important of all kingsguard duties. Jamie suggests some other KG to stay with the king when he wants to leave for the Trident and we also learn of a ritual that is performed when all KG meet and the king is guarded by someone who is not from the order.
"Protect vs Obey" is an ongoing subject of debate that is unlikely to be settled until we know more. Either viewpoint is compatible with R+L=J.

Wouldn't Viserys take precedence anyway? Rhaegar died without becoming king, and doesn't the world book call Viserys, not Aegon, Aerys' new heir?
No, in the case of an eldest son dying before the king dies, a grandson comes before a younger son. Even in the case the grandson is yet unborn at the time of death, he would succeed (heir apparent vs. heir presumptive). The world book is written with a Lannister bias (it may be propaganda to undermine Dornish support for the Targaryens) and in hindsight by maesters who have never learned all of what we know from Ned's dreams and memories. If it still turns out to be true... see the next answer.

Are matters of succession just as clear as presented here?
Succession quarrels are a part of medieval power play and even a very clear inheritance could well be contested. So maybe in King's Landing things did happen as the world book says. Rhaegar and Aerys may have been at odds over the succession. Rhaegar told Jaime before leaving for the Trident that he intended to call a council, and The Great Councils of the past have dealt with matters of succession. Who would have accepted such a change is a question worth asking.

Ned is dead. Who's going to tell anyone about it?
Bloodraven and Bran may have learned of it through the weirwood network. Benjen might know. Checkov's Crannogman Howland Reed is the sole survivor of the encounter at the Tower of Joy, and George R.R. Martin has stated he has not yet appeared because he knows too much about the central mystery of the book. "They had found him [Ned] still holding her [Lyanna's] body" tells that there also was someone else besides Howland to find Ned.

Why is this important? What impact can it have on the story?
The careful way the mystery of Jon's parentage was created is reason to believe it's important. What impact it will have on the rest of the series is still unknown.

This theory is too obvious and too many people believe it to be fact. How can it be true?
It is not so obvious to the majority of readers. Some will get it on their first read, but most will not. Readers who go to online fan forums, such as this, still represent a very small minority of the readership. Also, A Game of Thrones has been out since 1996. That's more than 18 years of readers being able to piece together this mystery. Crowd-sourced internet-based mystery solving like this inevitably make solved mysteries seem more obvious in hindsight.

George R.R. Martin is a "breaker of tropes, there can be no hidden prince, it's simply too cliché.
In order to break a trope it needs to be installed in the first place. It is yet unknown what will happen to Jon in the future. Being the son of Lyanna and Rhaegar does not imply the fairy-tale style happy ending associated with the hidden prince trope.

Is there a list of all R+L=J clues that have been found?
There is a list of R+L=J hints, clues and foreshadowing compiled by sj4iy.

Since this theory has been refined so well, will Martin change the outcome of the story to surprise his fans?
He has stated that he won't change the outcome of the story just because some people have put together all the clues and solved the puzzle.

Previous editions:
Please click on the spoiler below to reveal links to all previous editions of this thread

 

[spoiler]Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread one)

Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (thread two)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part III) (thread three)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon thread (Part IV) (thread four)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part V) (thread five)

The Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon Thread (Part VI) (thread six)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon Thread Part VII (thread seven)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part VIII (thread eight)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna = Jon thread, Part IX (thread nine)

The Rhaegar + Lyanna =Jon Thread, Part X(thread ten)

The R+L=J thread, part XI (thread eleven)

The R+L=J thread, part XII (thread twelve)

R+L=J Part XXIII (thread thirteen)

R+L=J Part XXIV (thread fourteen)

R+L=J XXV (thread fifteen)

R+L=J v.16 (thread sixteen)

R+L=J v.17 (thread seventeen)

R+L=J v.18 (thread eighteen)

R+L=J v.19 (thread nineteen)

R+L=J v.20 (thread twenty)

R+L=J v.21 (thread twenty-one)

R+L=J v.22 (thread twenty-two)

R+L=J v.22a (thread twenty-two (a))

R+L=J v.23 (thread twenty-three)

R+L=J v.24 (thread twenty-four)

R+L=J v.25 (thread twenty-five)

R+L=J v.26 (thread twenty-six)

R+L=J v.27 (thread twenty-seven)

R+L=J v.28 (thread twenty-eight)

R+L=J v.29 (thread twenty-nine)

R+L=J v.30 (thread thirty)

R+L=J v.31 (thread thirty-one)

R+L=J v.32 (thread thirty-two)

R+L=J v.33 (thread thirty-three)

R+L=J v.34 (thread thirty-four)

R+L=J v.35 (thread thirty-five)

R+L=J v.36 (thread thirty-six)

R+L=J v.37 (thread thirty-seven)

R+L=J v.38 (thread thirty-eight)

R+L=J v.39 (thread thirty-nine)

"R+L=J v.40" (thread forty)

"R+L=J v.41" (thread forty-one)

"R+L=J v.42" (thread forty-two)

"R+L=J v.43" (thread forty-three)

"R+L=J v.44" (thread forty-four)

"R+L=J v.45" (thread forty-five)

"R+L=J v.46" (thread forty-six)

"R+L=J v.47" (thread forty-seven)

"R+L=J v.48" (thread forty-eight)

"R+L=J v.49" (thread forty-nine)

"R+L=J v.50" (thread fifty)

"R+L=J v.51" (thread fifty-one)

"R+L=J v.52" (thread fifty-two)

"R+L=J v.53" (thread fifty-three)

"R+L=J v.54" (thread fifty-four)

"R+L=J v.55" (thread fifty-five)

"R+L=J v.56" (thread fifty-six)

"R+L=J v.57" (thread fifty-seven)

"R+L=J v.58" (thread fifty-eight)

"R+L=J v.59" (thread fifty-nine)

"R+L=J v.60" (thread sixty)

"R+L=J v.61" (thread sixty-one)

"R+L=J v.62" (thread sixty-two)

"R+L=J v.63" (thread sixty-three)

"R+L=J v.64" (thread sixty-four)

"R+L=J v.65" (thread sixty-five)

"R+L=J v.66" (thread sixty-six)

"R+L=J v.67" (thread sixty-seven)

"R+L=J v.68" (thread sixty-eight)

"R+L=J v.69" (thread sixty-nine)

"R+L=J v.70" (thread seventy)

"R+L=J v.71" (thread seventy-one)

"R+L=J v.72" (thread seventy-two)

"R+L=J v.73" (thread seventy-three)

"R+L=J v.74" (thread seventy-four)

"R+L=J v.75" (thread seventy-five)

"R+L=J v.76" (thread seventy-six)

"R+L=J v.77" (thread seventy-seven)

"R+L=J v.78" (thread seventy-eight)

"R+L=J v.79" (thread seventy-nine)

"R+L=J v.80" (thread eighty)

"R+L=J v.81" (thread eighty-one)

"R+L=J v.82" (thread eighty-two)

"R+L=J v.83" (thread eighty-three)

"R+L=J v.84" (thread eighty-four)

"R+L=J v.85" (thread eighty-five)

"R+L=J v.86" (thread eighty-six)

"R+L=J v.87" (thread eighty-seven)

"R+L=J v.88" (thread eighty-eight)

"R+L=J v.89" (thread eighty-nine)

"R+L=J v.90" (thread ninety)

"R+L=J v.91" (thread ninety-one)

"R+L=J v.92" (thread ninety-two)

"R+L=J v.93" (thread ninety-three)

"R+L=J v.94" (thread ninety-four)

"R+L=J v.95" (thread ninety-five)

"R+L=J v.96" (thread ninety-six)

"R+L=J v.97" (thread ninety-seven)

"R+L=J v.98" (thread ninety-eight)

"R+L=J v.99" (thread ninety-nine)

"R+L=J v.100" (thread one hundred)

"R+L=J v.101" (thread one hundred one)

"R+L=J v.102" (thread one hundred two)

"R+L=J v.103" (thread one hundred three)

"R+L=J v.104" (thread one hundred four)

"R+L=J v.105" (thread one hundred five)

"R+L=J v.106" (thread one hundred six)

"R+L=J v.107" (thread one hundred seven)

"R+L=J v.108" (thread one hundred eight)

"R+L=J v.109" (thread one hundred nine)

"R+L=J v.110" (thread one hundred ten)

"R+L=J v.111" (thread one hundred eleven)

"R+L=J v.112" (thread one hundred twelve)

"R+L=J v.113" (thread one hundred thirteen)

"R+L=J v.114" (thread one hundred fourteen)
 

 
 

 

The "[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J" threads were used to openly discuss spoilers from TWoIaF at the time we needed to protect that information.

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.1"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.2"

"[TWoIaF Spoilers] R+L=J v.3"

 
"R+L=J v.115" (thread one hundred fifteen)

"R+L=J v.116" (thread one hundred sixteen)

"R+L=J v.117" (thread one hundred seventeen)

"R+L=J v.118" (thread one hundred eighteen)

"R+L=J v.119" (thread one hundred nineteen)

"R+L=J v.120" (thread one hundred twenty)

"R+L=J v.121" (thread one hundred twenty one)

"R+L=J v.122" (thread one hundred twenty two)

"R+L=J v.123" (thread one hundred twenty three)

"R+L=J v.124" (thread one hundred twenty four)

"R+L=J v.125" (thread one hundred twenty five)

"R+L=J v.126" (thread one hundred twenty six)
 
"R+L=J v.127" (thread one hundred twenty seven)
 
"R+L=J v.128" (thread one hundred twenty eight)
 
"R+L=J v.129" (thread one hundred twenty nine)
 
"R+L=J v. 130" (thread one hundred thirty)
 
"R+L=J v.131" (thread one hundred thirty one)
 
"R+L=J v.132" (thread one hundred thirty two)


"R+L=J v.133" (thread one hundred thirty three)
 
"R+L=J v.134" (thread one hundred thirty four)
 
"R+L=J v.135" (thread one hundred thirty five)
 
"R+L=J v.136" (thread one hundred thirty six)
 
"R+L=J v.137" (thread one hundred thirty seven)
 
"R+L=J v.138"(thread one hundred thirty eight)
 
"R+L=J v.139" (thread one hundred thirty nine)
 
"R+L=J v.140" (thread one hundred forty)
 
"R+L=J v.141" (thread one hundred forty one)
 
"R+L=J v.142(thread one hundred forty two)
 
"R+L=J v.143" (thread one hundred forty three)
 
"R+L=J v. 144" (thread one hundred forty four)
 
"R+L=J v.145" (thread one hundred forty five)
 
"R+L=J v.146" (thread one hundred forty six)
 
"R+L=J v. 147" (thread one hundred forty seven)
 
"R+L=J v. 148" (thread one hundred forty eight)
 
"R+L=J v.149"(thread one hundred forty nine)

 

"R+L=J v. 150" (thread one hundred fifty)

 

"R+L=J v. 151" (thread one hundred fifty one)[/spoiler]

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The threadless time was like seven hells :-)

 

Have you asked for the thread to be pinned?

 

ETA: nvm

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Can anybody tell me please how long exactly rhaegar disappeared?
Almost one year? Or several months like a half year?

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Can anybody tell me please how long exactly rhaegar disappeared?
Almost one year? Or several months like a half year?

Well, the rebellion lasted very close to a year.  It started after his disappearance, and ended shortly after his reappearance.  So, about a year, or near enough to make no matter. 

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Can anybody tell me please how long exactly rhaegar disappeared?
Almost one year? Or several months like a half year?

 

I am not sure exactly how long (though my impression is it was quite a bit more than half a year), but TWOIAF gives us an indication of when he first set off.

 

The False Spring of 281 AC lasted less than two turns. As the year drew to a close, winter returned to Westeros with a vengeance. On the last day of the year, snow began to fall upon King's Landing, and a crust of ice formed atop the Blackwater Rush. The snowfall continued off and on for the best part of a fortnight, by which time the Blackwater was hard frozen, and icicles draped the roofs and gutters of every tower in the city.

 

As cold winds hammered the city, King Aerys II turned to his pyromancers, charging them to drive the winter off with their magics. Huge green fires burned along the walls of the Red Keep for a moon's turn. Prince Rhaegar was not in the city to observe them, however. Nor could he be found in Dragonstone with Princess Elia and their young son, Aegon. With the coming of the new year, the crown prince had taken to the road with half a dozen of his closest friends and confidants, on a journey that would ultimately lead him back to the riverlands. Not ten leagues from Harrenhal, Rhaegar fell upon Lyanna Stark of Winterfell, and carried her off, lighting a fire that would consume his house and kin and all those he loved—and half the realm besides.

 

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The threadless time was like seven hells :-)

 

Have you asked for the thread to be pinned?

 

ETA: nvm

 

:-D I gotcha covered

 

ETA: the time span after the Trident to the fall of KL wasn't too long--two weeks? Rhaegar and Lyanna went off at least one month before Ned called for the banners (probably more given Westerosi travel time). In total, it was likely close to a year from Rhaegar setting off to Rhaegar coming home to KL.

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Assuming Rhaegar determined that a child born of fire and ice was important, what is this role that Jon will play in the coming long night? A leader? A dragon rider? A balancing force? Will there be real tangible magic that he needs to invoke to end this war?

 

I just don't see Dany's dragons being the key to ending the war, not that they won't be important. What do people speculate? Is there any foreshadowing or hints to what his role might be? Will he wield light bringer and slay the heart of winter?

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Well, the rebellion lasted very close to a year.  It started after his disappearance, and ended shortly after his reappearance.  So, about a year, or near enough to make no matter.


Thanks.
Now I am wondering about the feeling of lyanna after she heard about the death of her family.
The death happened right after their disappearance. If they are not completely isolated from the world or rhaegar did not hide the news from her, lyanna must have had a very hard time.
How come she remained silent for one year?

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Assuming Rhaegar determined that a child born of fire and ice was important, what is this role that Jon will play in the coming long night? A leader? A dragon rider? A balancing force? Will there be real tangible magic that he needs to invoke to end this war?

 

I just don't see Dany's dragons being the key to ending the war, not that they won't be important. What do people speculate? Is there any foreshadowing or hints to what his role might be? Will he wield light bringer and slay the heart of winter?

 

Do you mean what role Rhaegar thought his son with Lyanna would fill or what role Jon will actually fill? For the former, I think it's hard to say. We don't know what the prophecy says (except that it must have something to do with the Long Night and bringing the Dawn) or more importantly how Rhaegar would have interpreted it, except that he understood that a savior born of his family would be responsible for the salvation of Westeros. Whatever the hell that entails. Rhaegar could have thought it meant his son would be some sort of magical force, but I don't think Rhaegar thought Jon would do it all by himself. He does recognize that the dragon has three heads and somehow those three heads work together.

 

The role Jon will actually take? A leader to be sure. A dragon rider, in my head. And then he does "the thing." I don't know what the "thing" is but I think it's his blood (ice and fire) that somehow restores balance to a very topsy turvy unbalanced world.

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Thanks.
Now I am wondering about the feeling of lyanna after she heard about the death of her family.
The death happened right after their disappearance. If they are not completely isolated from the world or rhaegar did not hide the news from her, lyanna must have had a very hard time.
How come she remained silent for one year?

 

Well I'm sure she wasn't happy about the death of her father and brother and hearing that her other brother went off to war because of it. But as far as why did she remain silent there are a few things to keep in mind.

 

1) The TOJ doesn't have its own set of ravens, and no ravens go to the TOJ. R and L (and Whent and Dayne) were getting news from someplace else (Starfall seems like the most likely solution). So it's not as if L could send a raven herself asking Ned to stand down or explaining herself. And having Stafall send a raven to Ned is dangerous for the residents of that house, not to mention that it's war, Ned's on the move--a raven needs to know where to go. And, the war was never about getting Lyanna back so I don't know what Lyanna could have written that would make much of a difference in terms of stopping the fighting.

 

2) Lyanna was pregnant. One does not move a pregnant woman over a war torn, mountainous region (or even in a boat over choppy seas) if one can help it. Since the Rebellion was more about taking down the Targaryens in light of Aerys killing Brandon and Rickard and calling for Ned's head, and NOT strictly about getting Lyanna back, her reappearing or even sending a message isn't going to stop the war.

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Thanks.
Now I am wondering about the feeling of lyanna after she heard about the death of her family.
The death happened right after their disappearance. If they are not completely isolated from the world or rhaegar did not hide the news from her, lyanna must have had a very hard time.
How come she remained silent for one year?

We don't know how long before the Trident Rhaegar returned from the south. He returned early enough to convince Aerys to send ravens asking Tywin for help, and according to Jaime enough time passed after sending the message to scare Aerys with the lack of answer.

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Well I'm sure she wasn't happy about the death of her father and brother and hearing that her other brother went off to war because of it. But as far as why did she remain silent there are a few things to keep in mind.
 
1) The TOJ doesn't have its own set of ravens, and no ravens go to the TOJ. R and L (and Whent and Dayne) were getting news from someplace else (Starfall seems like the most likely solution). So it's not as if L could send a raven herself asking Ned to stand down or explaining herself. And having Stafall send a raven to Ned is dangerous for the residents of that house, not to mention that it's war, Ned's on the move--a raven needs to know where to go. And, the war was never about getting Lyanna back so I don't know what Lyanna could have written that would make much of a difference in terms of stopping the fighting.
 
2) Lyanna was pregnant. One does not move a pregnant woman over a war torn, mountainous region (or even in a boat over choppy seas) if one can help it. Since the Rebellion was more about taking down the Targaryens in light of Aerys killing Brandon and Rickard and calling for Ned's head, and NOT strictly about getting Lyanna back, her reappearing or even sending a message isn't going to stop the war.


Yeah. I know there is nothing she can do to stop the war. But I am wondering why she can not ask somebody (even Rhaegar) to bring a message to Ned saying she is fine and then Ned does not need to worry about her.

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Yeah. I know there is nothing she can do to stop the war. But I am wondering why she can not ask somebody (even Rhaegar) to bring a message to Ned saying she is fine and then Ned does not need to worry about her.

I believe that Ned is worried about keeping his head upon his shoulders. Aerys' commanded the removal of his head to drive the war. It is not certain that the information about the cause of the war would get to Starfall, but it can be considered likely. After all Jon Arryn and Robert would need to explain why they were calling their banners. Ned, too, but that is the north.

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Yeah. I know there is nothing she can do to stop the war. But I am wondering why she can not ask somebody (even Rhaegar) to bring a message to Ned saying she is fine and then Ned does not need to worry about her.

 

And how could Ned be sure that Lyanna wasn't being forced to write that stuff? Up until he meets with Lyanna again at the TOJ and she gets a promise from him, Ned seems to believe that Rhaegar had abducted Lyanna, was holding her captive, and raping her. Ned gets a letter supposedly from Lyanna that says "hey, totally fine. R and I are in love, don't worry about me!" would anyone really believe to the point where'd they stop worrying?

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I've once speculated this before, and am wondering what the opinions about it are now:

It concerns Benjen. There has to be a reason he joined the NW within a few months of Neds return to Winterfell, with his family cut down to himself and Ned, and Neds infant son and infant bastard.

With the knowledge that Lyanna had been ten leagues away from Harrenhal, doubtless this portion of the theory/speculation needs some work, but before Lyanna' location had been known, I was wondering about whether or not Benjen had been tasked by Lyanna with delivering Rickard and/or Brandon a message concerning her and Rhaegar, stating that she had not been taken against her will. I suppose this could potentially still be the case, with Lyanna sending her message to Winterfell.
I speculated that Benjen tried to deliver the message, but failed to do so on time (so either the message never reached Rickard at all, or reached him only after Brandon had been arrested). In this case, it might have been that Benjen joined the Watch because he felt partially responsible for Brandons and Rickards deaths.

Also, depending on what Lyanna's message would have consisted of, Ned would be able to learn the contents of it as soon as he arrived at Winterfell to call the banners. Which, again depending greatly on the contents of the message, might have been part of the reason Ned was so angered after Aegon and Rhaenys were presented to Robert. If Ned had known before hand that there might have been an chance that Lyanna was pregnant, the death of Rhaegars children, and especially Roberts reaction to it, would then have been part of his motivation to ride so quickly from KL again.. to find Lyanna before another did.

I'm not sure how well this holds up with the new info we've gotten from the wb, but a scenario close to this might explain why Benjen joined the NW so quickly after Neds return.

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Didn't George say somewhere that there was a NW guy at Harrenhal trying to recruit people, and his speech at the beginning of the tourney made such an impact on Ben that he decided to take the Black? Could be in the App or somewhere in the SSMs.

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Didn't George say somewhere that there was a NW guy at Harrenhal trying to recruit people, and his speech at the beginning of the tourney made such an impact on Ben that he decided to take the Black? Could be in the App or somewhere in the SSMs.

 

That's from the app, but I don't have it. You should be able to find the quote in the App forum threads.

 

Can anybody tell me please how long exactly rhaegar disappeared?
Almost one year? Or several months like a half year?

 

There's at least one current Robellion timeline thread running. As @Rhaenys_Targaryen said we don't know how long before the battle of the trident Rhaegar returned from hiding, but maybe it makes sense that it happened any time after, but not before the battle of the bells.

 

So Rhaegar may have been in hiding any amount of time from 11 months to 21 months.

 

The fast riding time between the Trident and King's Landing is about 14 days.

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I've once speculated this before, and am wondering what the opinions about it are now:

It concerns Benjen. There has to be a reason he joined the NW within a few months of Neds return to Winterfell, with his family cut down to himself and Ned, and Neds infant son and infant bastard.

With the knowledge that Lyanna had been ten leagues away from Harrenhal, doubtless this portion of the theory/speculation needs some work, but before Lyanna' location had been known, I was wondering about whether or not Benjen had been tasked by Lyanna with delivering Rickard and/or Brandon a message concerning her and Rhaegar, stating that she had not been taken against her will. I suppose this could potentially still be the case, with Lyanna sending her message to Winterfell.
I speculated that Benjen tried to deliver the message, but failed to do so on time (so either the message never reached Rickard at all, or reached him only after Brandon had been arrested). In this case, it might have been that Benjen joined the Watch because he felt partially responsible for Brandons and Rickards deaths.

Also, depending on what Lyanna's message would have consisted of, Ned would be able to learn the contents of it as soon as he arrived at Winterfell to call the banners. Which, again depending greatly on the contents of the message, might have been part of the reason Ned was so angered after Aegon and Rhaenys were presented to Robert. If Ned had known before hand that there might have been an chance that Lyanna was pregnant, the death of Rhaegars children, and especially Roberts reaction to it, would then have been part of his motivation to ride so quickly from KL again.. to find Lyanna before another did.

I'm not sure how well this holds up with the new info we've gotten from the wb, but a scenario close to this might explain why Benjen joined the NW so quickly after Neds return.

 

Like Lord Varys points out, I think Ben was thinking about joining because of HH, BUT I think Ben has a much larger story to tell. I've wondered along the same lines as you that Ben knows...something. And like you I think Ben might have been so sort of go between. From a storytelling perspective, you don't keep a character off stage this long unless he's got something to tell. *cough* Howland Reed *cough*

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Yeah, a black brother was at Harrenhal, we've known that for years. And Ben took the plea of the black brother to heart, the app tells us that.

My point is, that there most likely is a reason that Ben joined so very young. He was 14 or 15, most likely, and it sounds as if he finds Jon, at that same age, still too young.

In addition, it is very odd timing. His father and brother and sister have just died. House Stark has been reduced to Ben himself, not even a man grown, Ned, and an infant. An odd time, I think, to make your family even smaller by joining the NW. If Ned had had a few more sons, or if Robb had been a few years older by then, it would be more understandable.

Which made me wonder whether it wasn't connected to the war, in whatever small way.

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That's from the app, but I don't have it. You should be able to find the quote in the App forum threads.
 
 
There's at least one current Robellion timeline thread running. As @Rhaenys_Targaryen said we don't know how long before the battle of the trident Rhaegar returned from hiding, but maybe it makes sense that it happened any time after, but not before the battle of the bells.
 
So Rhaegar may have been in hiding any amount of time from 11 months to 21 months.
 
The fast riding time between the Trident and King's Landing is about 14 days.

How do you get to 21 months?

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