Who was/would have been on Renly's Small Council?

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Of course not, that's made clear in AGOT and COK, Renly was only interested in the court life, the best proof is that he is having a tourney while preparing to face Stannis, and besides the Succession laws made it clear, the Heir was Stannis, Renly should have called the banners to help stannis, and then he would be alive and KL could have fallen to Stannis, Renly had it coming

 

How is keeping up the morale of your troops a bad thing? Maybe if Stannis was more bothered about that many of his men would not have changed sides half way through the Battle of Blackwater. He may even have convinced more Lords to join him.

 

 

Renly was in no rush to get to Kings Landing as it was getting weaker the longer he delayed. What he was doing was smart.

[Ezko]

 
How is keeping up the morale of your troops a bad thing? Maybe if Stannis was more bothered about that many of his men would not have changed sides half way through the Battle of Blackwater. He may even have convinced more Lords to join him.
 
 
Renly was in no rush to get to Kings Landing as it was getting weaker the longer he delayed. What he was doing was smart.

Yep^ It's astounding how many Stannis fans think Renly was incompetent. "Well Donal Noye said Renly was copper so...Stannis is the mannis!!"

Truth is he was far more competent politically and actually knew how to gain allies. Making his men like him, wow such a waste of time...

[ConfusedCounselor]

I agree with most, probably quite a lot of Reachmen and a few Stormlanders, Mace Tyrell, Redwyne, Rowan, Tarly etc.. 

I'd say he'd be smart enough to at least kick Littlefinger out and quite possibly Varys as well.

 

The rest would depend on how he becomes king. If he makes some sort of pact/agreement with the Stark/Tully alliance to welcome them back in the King's Piece, having a representative might be smart politics (Blackfish would be a good choice). Add one for Dorne as well and you'll be well on your way to building some sort of national unity. 

[Trigger Warning]

Of course not, that's made clear in AGOT and COK, Renly was only interested in the court life, the best proof is that he is having a tourney while preparing to face Stannis, and besides the Succession laws made it clear, the Heir was Stannis, Renly should have called the banners to help stannis, and then he would be alive and KL could have fallen to Stannis, Renly had it coming

He wasn't preparing to face Stannis, he was holding tournaments and feasts whilst he a made royal progress through the Reach. Why does everyone always bring this up, how is keeping morale up, making sure your men don't get bored and keeping your knights on their toes a bad thing? He's avoiding battle because there is no urgency to give battle, waiting only makes him stronger whilst his enemies weaken. 

He's not avoiding battle to hold tournaments, he's holding tournaments because he's avoiding battle. 

Also, Renly should have raised his armies to help Stannis? Why, how is this justifiable in any way even from the perspective of a Stannis fan. Stannis literally sat in silence on Dragonstone for over a year and declared himself well after everyone else, he came out of the blue and is only the heir to himself, Ned and his men.

 

So Renly just leaves King's Landing rides to Storm's End raises his armies, why are you raising your armies my lord? We have to fight for Stannis. Why my lord? His true king beams are shooting across the sea telling me I have to do my duty. 

:dunno: 

[spoiler]The amount I feel the need to defend Renly you'd never think Stannis was one of my favourite characters. [/spoiler]


 

[VenezuelanLord]

He wasn't preparing to face Stannis, he was holding tournaments and feasts whilst he a made royal progress through the Reach. Why does
Also, Renly should have raised his armies to help Stannis? Why, how is this justifiable in any way even from the perspective of a Stannis fan. Stannis literally sat in silence on Dragonstone for over a year and declared himself well after everyone else, he came out of the blue and is only the heir to himself, Ned and his men.
 
So Renly just leaves King's Landing rides to Storm's End raises his armies, why are you raising your armies my lord? We have to fight for Stannis. Why my lord? His true king beams are shooting across the sea telling me I have to do my duty. 

:dunno: 

[spoiler]The amount I feel the need to defend Renly you'd never think Stannis was one of my favourite characters. [/spoiler]


 

Now I have seen your point regarding the tourney, but Stannis was the Heir by law of succession, Renly was usurping him, imagine that after RR Benjen named himself heir to WF just because Ned was away and he has a better PR department.. I mean perhaps Renly really could've been better King than Stannis (I'm sure of it) but he still usurped his brother

[Trigger Warning]

Now I have seen your point regarding the tourney, but Stannis was the Heir by law of succession, Renly was usurping him, imagine that after RR Benjen named himself heir to WF just because Ned was away and he has a better PR department.. I mean perhaps Renly really could've been better King than Stannis (I'm sure of it) but he still usurped his brother

 

Renly was usurping Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella. Stannis is fourth in line (debatable regarding Mycella), who cares that he usurps Stannis when he usurps his nephews without knowing of their bastardy. Yes Renly was usurping him but that doesn't mean if he wasn't to usurp him that he should support him. 

Renly has already decided to usurp Robert's children, usurping his older arsehole brother's not a big deal after that. People should call him out on not supporting Joffrey, not that he didn't support Stannis, but it just shows how Stanniscentric Renly arguments are, usually about Renly supporting Stannis, sounds a lot like Stannis really. 

[VenezuelanLord]

 
Renly was usurping Joffrey, Tommen and Myrcella. Stannis is fourth in line (debatable regarding Mycella), who cares that he usurps Stannis when he usurps his nephews without knowing of their bastardy. Yes Renly was usurping him but that doesn't mean if he wasn't to usurp him that he should support him. 

Renly has already decided to usurp Robert's children, usurping his older arsehole brother's not a big deal after that. People should call him out on not supporting Joffrey, not that he didn't support Stannis, but it just shows how Stanniscentric Renly arguments are, usually about Renly supporting Stannis, sounds a lot like STannis really. 

Well that sounds logic I guess, but Renly did know about Robert's children Bastard, Ned told him didn't he? I mean it wouldn't mean anything since Joffrey and Co. Bastard wasn't common knowledge

[Trigger Warning]

Well that sounds logic I guess, but Renly did know about Robert's children Bastard, Ned told him didn't he? I mean it wouldn't mean anything since Joffrey and Co. Bastard wasn't common knowledge

Nope, Ned didn't tell Renly. Stannis' letter is the first he hears about it. 

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

 
How is keeping up the morale of your troops a bad thing? Maybe if Stannis was more bothered about that many of his men would not have changed sides half way through the Battle of Blackwater. He may even have convinced more Lords to join him.
 
 
Renly was in no rush to get to Kings Landing as it was getting weaker the longer he delayed. What he was doing was smart.

Except it wasn't. Renly had substantially a bigger army than all his foes combined especially after Jaime's troops got screwed. There was no way any individual army could stand against half his men in a straight up battle.

So while Renly was adding troops he didn't need and straining his logistics King's Landing was starving, Stannis had time to recruit sellswords, the Riverlands were getting pillaged and the realm's economy was getting more screwed.

Taking King's Landing would have meant the Redwynes would be able to join the war and actually take proactive actions against Stannis. It would have given Renly a chance at grabbing Sansa or one of the Lannisters. It would have given him a shot at removing Tywin from the equation if his army moved south.

And because of the huge numerical disparity Renly could have taken the reins easily. Instead he's accepting that the badly indebted Crown will sink even further into debt and that the ties that bind the various regions to the Iron Throne will get even weaker.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Except it wasn't. Renly had substantially a bigger army than all his foes combined especially after Jaime's troops got screwed. There was no way any individual army could stand against half his men in a straight up battle.

Not exactly.

 

Say he went directly to Kings Landing and faced Tywins 20k and the Crownlanders 7-8k. He very, very likely would have won but would have taken casualties to his 80k army given that he would have been the attacking force.

 

So his army is now down to around 50-60kand he has to deal with the a united North and Riverlands with around 35k, whatevers left in the Westerlands and possibly the Vale. Now his army can most likely deal with all that, but it would be something of a pyrrhic victory as he leaves the realm bloodied and politically fractured.

 

His plan was to let the Lannisters and Starks weaken themselves so after he won Kings Landing, which would be easier should Tywin and Robb keep on fighting, to easily take the weakened Riverlands, Westerlands and North who would be lacking the same amount of men and resources to put up a fight.

 

Allowing his enemies to weaken themselves while he either maintains his strength to gets stronger is actually a very good move especially when he has control of the food basket of Westeros.

 

So while Renly was adding troops he didn't need and straining his logistics King's Landing was starving, Stannis had time to recruit sellswords, the Riverlands were getting pillaged and the realm's economy was getting more screwed.

Tywin talks of rumours of Tywin recruiting sellswords at the same time he hears of Renlys wedding. I'm not sure that is a factor. The Riverlands economy would be getting screwed, not sure how that is bad for Renly's Reach backers. It is actually win-win for them, the longer they delay the stronger they become and more important their food supply becomes.

Taking King's Landing would have meant the Redwynes would be able to join the war and actually take proactive actions against Stannis. It would have given Renly a chance at grabbing Sansa or one of the Lannisters. It would have given him a shot at removing Tywin from the equation if his army moved south.

Sure. I'm not denying that there were no pros to moving quickly, just that there was also many advantages to stalling.

And because of the huge numerical disparity Renly could have taken the reins easily. Instead he's accepting that the badly indebted Crown will sink even further into debt and that the ties that bind the various regions to the Iron Throne will get even weaker.

Well that works both ways. Moving quickly means he gains more casualties so that hold on the rest of Westeros grows weaker.

 

We don't know what his next step was. I'm sure he had other methods after he was crowned to try to reunite Westeros as a realm but the fact that there was a war of the Five Kings shows that the ties between the various kingdoms was on pretty shaky ground to begin with.

[Bobby b's bobby]

Not exactly.
 
Say he went directly to Kings Landing and faced Tywins 20k and the Crownlanders 7-8k. He very, very likely would have won but would have taken casualties to his 80k army given that he would have been the attacking force.
 
So his army is now down to around 50-60kand he has to deal with the a united North and Riverlands with around 35k, whatevers left in the Westerlands and possibly the Vale. Now his army can most likely deal with all that, but it would be something of a pyrrhic victory as he leaves the realm bloodied and politically fractured.
 
His plan was to let the Lannisters and Starks weaken themselves so after he won Kings Landing, which would be easier should Tywin and Robb keep on fighting, to easily take the weakened Riverlands, Westerlands and North who would be lacking the same amount of men and resources to put up a fight.
 
Allowing his enemies to weaken themselves while he either maintains his strength to gets stronger is actually a very good move especially when he has control of the food basket of Westeros.

 
Tywin talks of rumours of Tywin recruiting sellswords at the same time he hears of Renlys wedding. I'm not sure that is a factor. The Riverlands economy would be getting screwed, not sure how that is bad for Renly's Reach backers. It is actually win-win for them, the longer they delay the stronger they become and more important their food supply becomes.

Sure. I'm not denying that there were no pros to moving quickly, just that there was also many advantages to stalling.
Well that works both ways. Moving quickly means he gains more casualties so that hold on the rest of Westeros grows weaker.
 
We don't know what his next step was. I'm sure he had other methods after he was crowned to try to reunite Westeros as a realm but the fact that there was a war of the Five Kings shows that the ties between the various kingdoms was on pretty shaky ground to begin with.

Do you really think he would have lost 20+k taking kl and tywin?

Renly's plan was good but I doubt he'd take those casualties if he would have attacked more directly.

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

Not exactly.
 
Say he went directly to Kings Landing and faced Tywins 20k and the Crownlanders 7-8k. He very, very likely would have won but would have taken casualties to his 80k army given that he would have been the attacking force.
 
So his army is now down to around 50-60kand he has to deal with the a united North and Riverlands with around 35k, whatevers left in the Westerlands and possibly the Vale. Now his army can most likely deal with all that, but it would be something of a pyrrhic victory as he leaves the realm bloodied and politically fractured.
 
His plan was to let the Lannisters and Starks weaken themselves so after he won Kings Landing, which would be easier should Tywin and Robb keep on fighting, to easily take the weakened Riverlands, Westerlands and North who would be lacking the same amount of men and resources to put up a fight.
 
Allowing his enemies to weaken themselves while he either maintains his strength to gets stronger is actually a very good move especially when he has control of the food basket of Westeros.

 
Tywin talks of rumours of Tywin recruiting sellswords at the same time he hears of Renlys wedding. I'm not sure that is a factor. The Riverlands economy would be getting screwed, not sure how that is bad for Renly's Reach backers. It is actually win-win for them, the longer they delay the stronger they become and more important their food supply becomes.

Sure. I'm not denying that there were no pros to moving quickly, just that there was also many advantages to stalling.
Well that works both ways. Moving quickly means he gains more casualties so that hold on the rest of Westeros grows weaker.
 
We don't know what his next step was. I'm sure he had other methods after he was crowned to try to reunite Westeros as a realm but the fact that there was a war of the Five Kings shows that the ties between the various kingdoms was on pretty shaky ground to begin with.

If he moved quickly enough Tywin wouldn't have reached King's Landing in time. If somehow Tywin did get to KL he could either face Renly in the field where the weight of numbers would tell (27k vs 80k isn't a contest) or get besieged in King's Landing. Unless Renly somehow got a lobotomy he wouldn't be assaulting the city directly. Merely keeping half the army to siege would be enough.

The whole Reach backers whoy shows why Renly was a poor strategist. Look at how vulnerable Robert was to the Lannisters and he had alliances with the Tullys, Arryns and Starks.

Renly needed to legitimise his position in the long run and there's no way to do that except by acting like a proper king and restoring order and prosperity or else his rule is held by nothing but a personal alliance between him and Mace.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Do you really think he would have lost 20+k taking kl and tywin?

 
At Kings Landing? Sure. A 27k army reinforcing Kings Landing would take a lot of casualties before they are eventually beaten. Of course he can lay it to siege but then Renly's in the same position he was in while he was delaying, but this time he's allowing Robb to strengthen his position.
 
 

If he moved quickly enough Tywin wouldn't have reached King's Landing in time. If somehow Tywin did get to KL he could either face Renly in the field where the weight of numbers would tell (27k vs 80k isn't a contest) or get besieged in King's Landing. Unless Renly somehow got a lobotomy he wouldn't be assaulting the city directly. Merely keeping half the army to siege would be enough.

Harrnenhal is closer to Kings Landing than Storms End, and seems a clearer ride as there is no Blackwater or Kingswood for Tywins army to march through.

 

The whole Reach backers whoy shows why Renly was a poor strategist. Look at how vulnerable Robert was to the Lannisters and he had alliances with the Tullys, Arryns and Starks.

Robert wasn't vulnerable to the Lannisters. He wanted a united realm and that included the Lannsiters, as he was preoccupied with the thought of the Targs returning.

Renly needed to legitimise his position in the long run and there's no way to do that except by acting like a proper king and restoring order and prosperity or else his rule is held by nothing but a personal alliance between him and Mace.

 

How can you judge what the 'long run' would be? We don't know his plans afterwards, how he would have tried to reunite the Kingdom and how forgiving he would have been to his enemies.

[targurl 15]

Neither Renly or Stannis have a claim because the true king is HODOR!

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Not exactly.

 

Say he went directly to Kings Landing and faced Tywins 20k and the Crownlanders 7-8k. He very, very likely would have won but would have taken casualties to his 80k army given that he would have been the attacking force.

 

So his army is now down to around 50-60kand he has to deal with the a united North and Riverlands with around 35k, whatevers left in the Westerlands and possibly the Vale. Now his army can most likely deal with all that, but it would be something of a pyrrhic victory as he leaves the realm bloodied and politically fractured.

 

 

Not really how it would work, if Renly were to take on Tywin in the Crownlands he would either be decisively defeated or defeat Tywin with fairly low (~5,000 at most).

 

The only way that would really work is if Renly split up his host and Tywin succeeded in slaughtering a few parts of it, but that would be really dumb, and that level of casualties would still not be 20,000 plus.

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
At Kings Landing? Sure. A 27k army reinforcing Kings Landing would take a lot of casualties before they are eventually beaten. Of course he can lay it to siege but then Renly's in the same position he was in while he was delaying, but this time he's allowing Robb to strengthen his position.
 
How does tywin beat renly there and why do the Crownlanders decide to go all in when renly is approaching when they don't bother when it's just stannis? And even if tywins less than 20k by now and the Crownlanders join up then attack renly no way they take 20-30k with them.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

 

 
How does tywin beat renly there and why do the Crownlanders decide to go all in when renly is approaching when they don't bother when it's just stannis? And even if tywins less than 20k by now and the Crownlanders join up then attack renly no way they take 20-30k with them.

 

I didn't say the Crownlanders would go all in. Kings Landing had between 7-8k in the battle of Blackwater plus the 350 they sent with Littlefinger.

 

Renly is at Storms End, Tywin at Harrenhal, which is closer to Kings Landing. Then there is the Blackwater and the Kingswood for Renly to get past. Plus I'd imagine 20k moves quicker than 80k.

 

 

 

Not really how it would work, if Renly were to take on Tywin in the Crownlands he would either be decisively defeated or defeat Tywin with fairly low (~5,000 at most).

 

 

If it was obvious that Tywin would be beat fighting in the Cronwlands (which it is) then why would he not try to further fortify Kings Landing with his 20k?

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

 

I didn't say the Crownlanders would go all in. Kings Landing had between 7-8k in the battle of Blackwater plus the 350 they sent with Littlefinger.

 

Renly is at Storms End, Tywin at Harrenhal, which is closer to Kings Landing. Then there is the Blackwater and the Kingswood for Renly to get past. Plus I'd imagine 20k moves quicker than 80k.

 

 

 

If it was obvious that Tywin would be beat fighting in the Cronwlands (which it is) then why would he not try to further fortify Kings Landing with his 20k?

 

The problem with defending a fortification is that it is an excellent place to get trapped, once Tywin enters King's Landing and lets Renly besiege him he will have great difficulty actually getting out to attack Renly, he has no incoming food and no armies or fleets that can relieve him.

 

If Tywin enters King's Landing and Renly can surround it then he has lost. As long as he is in the field he has a chance of winning, history is littered with smaller, better led, and more experienced armies defeating larger ones, now of course that doesn't mean Renly is likely to lose, but it isn't as improbable/unlikely as some posters make out.

 

Besides Tywin has options other than a pitched battle if he stays in the field, he can invade and pillage the Reach, he could even try to seize castles and towns that control the Roseroad so that Renly can't feed King's Landing or his army, otherwise simply going scorched earth on most of the Reach would erode a lot of Renly's support.

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

 
The problem with defending a fortification is that it is an excellent place to get trapped, once Tywin enters King's Landing and lets Renly besiege him he will have great difficulty actually getting out to attack Renly, he has no incoming food and no armies or fleets that can relieve him.
 
If Tywin enters King's Landing and Renly can surround it then he has lost. As long as he is in the field he has a chance of winning, history is littered with smaller, better led, and more experienced armies defeating larger ones, now of course that doesn't mean Renly is likely to lose, but it isn't as improbable/unlikely as some posters make out.
 
Besides Tywin has options other than a pitched battle if he stays in the field, he can invade and pillage the Reach, he could even try to seize castles and towns that control the Roseroad so that Renly can't feed King's Landing or his army, otherwise simply going scorched earth on most of the Reach would erode a lot of Renly's support.

Renly can send half of his army to counter Tywin and still easily win the siege. He has more cavalry than Tywin's field force has men.

Also if Tywin isn't at King's Landing then the city will crumble under an assault. Stannis nearly took it despite the whole wildfire stuff with an army a quarter the size of Renly's. Since Renly wouldn't have a choke point in naval transport he could easily overpower the city watch.

[Bobby b's bobby]

 
I didn't say the Crownlanders would go all in. Kings Landing had between 7-8k in the battle of Blackwater plus the 350 they sent with Littlefinger.
 
Renly is at Storms End, Tywin at Harrenhal, which is closer to Kings Landing. Then there is the Blackwater and the Kingswood for Renly to get past. Plus I'd imagine 20k moves quicker than 80k.
 
 
 
If it was obvious that Tywin would be beat fighting in the Cronwlands (which it is) then why would he not try to further fortify Kings Landing with his 20k?

Of the 8k 2k were goldcloaks, 3k+ new goldcloaks with only 300 actual men at arms and knights the rest sellswords.

If Tywin beats renly to kl he has to enter kl and then starve with everyone else just speeding up the siege with his army or he can try and fight renly somewhere but renly has the troops to attack kl and still send 50k under Tarly to fight tywin wherever tywin chooses.