Who was/would have been on Renly's Small Council?

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

Renly can send half of his army to counter Tywin and still easily win the siege. He has more cavalry than Tywin's field force has men.

Also if Tywin isn't at King's Landing then the city will crumble under an assault. Stannis nearly took it despite the whole wildfire stuff with an army a quarter the size of Renly's. Since Renly wouldn't have a choke point in naval transport he could easily overpower the city watch.

 

He could, and Tywin could quite plausibly defeat those 40,000 men. I'm not some sort of uber Tywin fan, indeed I think he is overrated by most characters and fans as a military commander, however he is certainly more than competent, and competent commanders can and have defeated much larger armies, especially if they chose the terrain (which Tywin is sure to do), they have an advantage in terms of experience (which Tywin does), and the enemy is very arrogant (which Loras or Renly may well be).

 

Arguably the southern side of King's Landing is weaker, Renly would have to cross at some point, and wouldn't be able to easily supply his men whilst Joffrey has 50 ships on the Blackwater.

 

The wildfire still exists when they attack by land, indeed if it isn't all used at once it is more effective, not less because the threat of it could keep a full scale assault at bay for a long time, which harms it due to dysentery, starvation, and lack of other supplies.

[Trigger Warning]

It doesn't matter if no army could defeat his combined strength, why even take any risk or casualties when he doesn't have to? 

Tywin and Robb's strength is diminishing, they have to make a move soon. King's Landing is starving and attacking the king in the street, by the time he arrives they'll probably throw the gates open to him. 

There's no urgency to his march because his army is in supply, his power is on display and it gives other lords the opportunity to see it and join him and it means that when he finally does face Tywin or Robb he'll be at full strength and they won't be anywhere near their full strength and will likely be much easier to negotiate with. The only thing that adds urgency is that Stannis is going to kill him with a shadow and he can't possibly know or defend against it. 

[LaughingStormBaratheon]

How would anyone think that the elder have to back down in a succession conflict, Renly should have sworn fealty to stannis, yes he could have made a "pretty" King, but only for the showing, he had no interest in helping westeros, only in the court life

I wouldn't argue this point with him. Tried before, he accepts no logic and in the end without any counterpoints, will just tell you to be quiet. I dunno whether it's his biased love for renly, or biased hate for stannis, but he drank the kool aid a little hard.

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

 
He could, and Tywin could quite plausibly defeat those 40,000 men. I'm not some sort of uber Tywin fan, indeed I think he is overrated by most characters and fans as a military commander, however he is certainly more than competent, and competent commanders can and have defeated much larger armies, especially if they chose the terrain (which Tywin is sure to do), they have an advantage in terms of experience (which Tywin does), and the enemy is very arrogant (which Loras or Renly may well be).
 
Arguably the southern side of King's Landing is weaker, Renly would have to cross at some point, and wouldn't be able to easily supply his men whilst Joffrey has 50 ships on the Blackwater.
 
The wildfire still exists when they attack by land, indeed if it isn't all used at once it is more effective, not less because the threat of it could keep a full scale assault at bay for a long time, which harms it due to dysentery, starvation, and lack of other supplies.

Tywin could defeat Renly because Renly is an idiot. On the other hand there's no way he could defeat Randyll Tarly when outnumbered two to one and if Renly was smart he'd set Tarly on him.

Renly doesn't have to go through the south of King's Landing- he can just follow the road and attack from the west and north.

As for the wildfire- it is pretty useless in a pitched battle due to it being so temperamental. There's a reason Tyrion loaded it on ships instead of using catapults to delay.

[Bobby b's bobby]

Tywin could defeat Renly because Renly is an idiot. On the other hand there's no way he could defeat Randyll Tarly when outnumbered two to one and if Renly was smart he'd set Tarly on him.

Renly doesn't have to go through the south of King's Landing- he can just follow the road and attack from the west and north.

As for the wildfire- it is pretty useless in a pitched battle due to it being so temperamental. There's a reason Tyrion loaded it on ships instead of using catapults to delay.

How is renly an idiot?

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

How is renly an idiot?

The easiest example is the attack in the morning against the sun thing. He's willing to take more losses because it'd look more glorious.

Then there's the way he painfully fails at the courtly games in King's Landing. He severely misjudges Ned, fails to bribe or win over any men at court besides his own political appointees and is obviously and painfully under informed about the various plots. He doesn't know about the incest, doesn't know about Jon Arryn's investigation and is obviously unconcerned about the debts.

[Sullen]

 

Well that sounds logic I guess, but Renly did know about Robert's children Bastard, Ned told him didn't he? I mean it wouldn't mean anything since Joffrey and Co. Bastard wasn't common knowledge

 

That's only in the TV show.

 

The only people Ned informs of the incest are Cersei when he confronted her, and Littlefinger (who most likely already knew).

 

 

The easiest example is the attack in the morning against the sun thing. He's willing to take more losses because it'd look more glorious.

 

He's expecting most of Stannis's force to desert him, they won't be able to withstand a cavalry charge, the losses would be insignificant.

 

 

Then there's the way he painfully fails at the courtly games in King's Landing. 

 

He's notably one of the big players in King's Landing, and catches on that Cersei plans to murder him quite early.

 

Also, applies to Stannis.

 

He severely misjudges Ned

 

He couldn't have expected Ned to act as completely illogically.

 

Also, applies to Stannis if you believe the "Stannis couldn't know Eddard was trustworthy and that's why he didn't want to share info about the incest!" argument.

 

 

fails to bribe or win over any men at court besides his own political appointees

 

The Tyrells are not his own men, and he won them over.

 

Also, applies to Stannis.

 

 

painfully under informed about the various plots

 

Compared to who? Varys and Littlefinger? That doesn't make him an idiot.

 

 

 He doesn't know about the incest

 

People knowing about the incest are in the single digits, there is nothing wrong with not knowing about the incest.

 

 

doesn't know about Jon Arryn's investigation

 

Doesn't know what it was about, nothing says he didn't know Jon Arryn was investigating.

 

 

and is obviously unconcerned about the debts.

 

Unlike Stannis, I suppose, who just took a crippling loan from foreigner to get a chance at going for the Iron Throne.

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

 

He's expecting most of Stannis's force to desert him, they won't be able to withstand a cavalry charge, the losses would be insignificant.

 

 

That's still taking stupid risks in the middle of a war. Even an average commander would put the welfare of his forces before personal pleasure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

He's notably one of the big players in King's Landing, and catches on that Cersei plans to murder him quite early.

 

Also, applies to Stannis.

 

 

He couldn't have expected Ned to act as completely illogically.

 

Also, applies to Stannis if you believe the "Stannis couldn't know Eddard was trustworthy and that's why he didn't want to share info about the incest!" argument.

 

 

 

Cersei still manages to totally trump him and bribe or bully the rest of the Small Council despite being well, Cersei.

 

As for misjudging Ned- Renly is the guy who still offers Ned to usurp the Throne together despite knowing about Ned's honor. On the other hand Stannis hadn't seen Ned since Balon's rebellion nearly a decade ago and had spent far less time in Ned's presence.

 

Not that Stannis is a great politician- he fails pretty badly at that but at least he's a good military commander which Renly isn't. Even Robert has more qualities than looking pretty.

 

 

 

The Tyrells are not his own men, and he won them over.

 

Also, applies to Stannis.

 

 

 

Erm... he married into the Tyrells. He didn't win over anyone but Mace and Loras (though it's debatable who won over who)

 

 

 

 

Compared to who? Varys and Littlefinger? That doesn't make him an idiot.

 

 

People knowing about the incest are in the single digits, there is nothing wrong with not knowing about the incest.

 

 

Doesn't know what it was about, nothing says he didn't know Jon Arryn was investigating.

 

 

Unlike Stannis, I suppose, who just took a crippling loan from foreigner to get a chance at going for the Iron Throne.

 

 

Varys, Littlefinger, Pycelle. All three of them were far more constrained in their actions compared to Renly and yet Varys has his little birds, Littlefinger owns all the taxmen and the Goldcloaks (who would nominally act under the Master of Laws) and Pycelle still manages to promote Lannister interests. Meanwhile our happy conspirator Renly has exactly zero allies at court and isn't even capable of buying some despite being a Lord Paramount with a nearly limitless amount of money to throw at people.

 

He was the one who wanted to make Margaery queen but he's also the last man in the Small Council to find out about the incest. He has some four months to investigate nearly undisturbed why Jon Arryn suddenly died one day and why Stannis went to Dragonstone. You'd think that someone trying to replace the Queen and generally be a political player would have way more success than spymaster Ned especially if given nearly double the amount of time- but no, Renly disappoints again. He doesn't even use his position at court to properly gain leverage.

 

Renly isn't a good plotter, Renly isn't a good administrator, Renly isn't a good commander, Renly isn't even a good fighter. What exactly is Renly good at besides propaganda?

 

Not that having a good image isn't important but when you're an absolute monarch you need to have something more.

[Sullen]

 

That's still taking stupid risks in the middle of a war. Even an average commander would put the welfare of his forces before personal pleasure.

 

A heroic victory is good for PR and morale, that's a common element in most of Renly's plans. It's not just personal pleasure.

 

 

Cersei still manages to totally trump him and bribe or bully the rest of the Small Council despite being well, Cersei.

 

Cersei trumps him? If not for Stannis's queef assassin, Renly would have her head on a pike. Cersei's hold on the Small Council is also only as a Queen Regent, and even then, no one is loyal to her.

 

 

As for misjudging Ned- Renly is the guy who still offers Ned to usurp the Throne together despite knowing about Ned's honor. On the other hand Stannis hadn't seen Ned since Balon's rebellion nearly a decade ago and had spent far less time in Ned's presence.

 

Usurping? Have you read the damned books?

 

Renly suggests enforcing Robert's will, installing Eddard as Joffrey's regent. There is no usurping whatsoever in that plan. Eddard didn't like the plan because it required securing the children at night, likely scaring them, instead of during the day.

 

 

Erm... he married into the Tyrells. He didn't win over anyone but Mace and Loras (though it's debatable who won over who)

 

He won over who he needed to win over, case in point, it got him the army he needed. The marriage happened afterwards.

 

"Who won over who" is an invention of the show, which you seem to get confused with the books, considering your reference to Renly usurping the Throne with Ned, which also is only in the show.

 

 

Varys, Littlefinger, Pycelle. All three of them were far more constrained in their actions compared to Renly and yet Varys has his little birds, Littlefinger owns all the taxmen and the Goldcloaks (who would nominally act under the Master of Laws) and Pycelle still manages to promote Lannister interests. Meanwhile our happy conspirator Renly has exactly zero allies at court and isn't even capable of buying some despite being a Lord Paramount with a nearly limitless amount of money to throw at people.

 

Varys, Pycelle, and Littlefinger are pretty much among the top plotters in the world.

 

Renly not being as adept as them at plotting doesn't make him a weak plotter.

 

 

He was the one who wanted to make Margaery queen but he's also the last man in the Small Council to find out about the incest. He has some four months to investigate nearly undisturbed why Jon Arryn suddenly died one day and why Stannis went to Dragonstone. You'd think that someone trying to replace the Queen and generally be a political player would have way more success than spymaster Ned especially if given nearly double the amount of time- but no, Renly disappoints again. He doesn't even use his position at court to properly gain leverage.

 

Last one to find out about the incest, but the one man to raise a 100k strong host, and to know when to bail when his life is in danger... unlike Stannis who bailed to early, and Ned who decided to stay and got killed.

 

 

 

Renly isn't a good plotter, Renly isn't a good administrator, Renly isn't a good commander, Renly isn't even a good fighter. What exactly is Renly good at besides propaganda?

 

Not that having a good image isn't important but when you're an absolute monarch you need to have something more.

 

His plot to install Ned as regent would have worked if not for Ned being an idiot... he then created the most powerful alliance on this side of Westeros.

His skills as an administrator are unknown.

His war plan is pretty much flawless, the more he waits, the stronger he becomes. If it wasn't for a deus ex machina, he'd be King right now.

He is a crowd's favourite at tourneys, and there is nothing to suggest he was a bad fighter, on the contrary, it suggests he was quite decent, unless of course you believe that homosexuals can't fight, or go by the show's depiction of Renly.

[Ezko]

Renly isn't a good plotter, Renly isn't a good administrator, Renly isn't a good commander, Renly isn't even a good fighter. What exactly is Renly good at besides propaganda?

So Renly is good at nothing, but somehow manages to gain nearly every advantage in the Wot5k? Interesting, if it's that easy to gain a force of 100k, why didn't Stannis do it? Or Robb? Or Tywin? Or Balon?

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

 

 

His plot to install Ned as regent would have worked if not for Ned being an idiot... he then created the most powerful alliance on this side of Westeros.

His skills as an administrator are unknown.

His war plan is pretty much flawless, the more he waits, the stronger he becomes. If it wasn't for a deus ex machina, he'd be King right now.

He is a crowd's favourite at tourneys, and there is nothing to suggest he was a bad fighter, on the contrary, it suggests he was quite decent, unless of course you believe that homosexuals can't fight, or go by the show's depiction of Renly.

 

Renly a good fighter? Who exactly praises Renly?

 

Clash of Kings Prologue:

 

What has Renly ever done to earn a throne? He sits in council and jests with Littlefinger, and at tourneys he dons his splendid suit of armor and allows himself to be knocked off his horse by a better man. That is the sum of my brother Renly, who thinks he ought to be a king.

 

 

Admittedly this is Stannis doing the talk- but despite calling Tywin and Robb traitors he never disparages their fighting skills. By contrast not even love struck Loras praises Renly's incredible fighting talents. Indeed nobody ever praises any sort of practical skill of Renly's instead we get 'Bold but but heedless, who acted from impulse rather than calculation' from Maester Cressen, pitying words about knights of summer from Cat and even Loras admitting that Renly wasn't much for book learning.

 

And it has nothing to do with being gay- both Loras and Jon Connington are gay and are some of the best warriors in the Seven Kingdoms and have shown greater wits than Renly to boot.

 

 

 

Usurping? Have you read the damned books?

 

Renly suggests enforcing Robert's will, installing Eddard as Joffrey's regent. There is no usurping whatsoever in that plan. Eddard didn't like the plan because it required securing the children at night, likely scaring them, instead of during the day.

 

 

:rolleyes: Except Robert's will couldn't even be enforced because Robert wasn't dead, nor did Renly actually know what was in the will. A Game of Thrones:

 

“That letter.” He leaned close. “Was it the regency? Has my brother named you Protector?” He did not wait for a reply. “My lord, I have thirty men in my personal guard, and other friends beside, knights and lords. Give me an hour, and I can put a hundred swords in your hand.”

“And what should I do with a hundred swords, my lord?”

“Strike! Now, while the castle sleeps.” Renly looked back at Ser Boros again and dropped his voice to an urgent whisper. “We must get Joffrey away from his mother and take him in hand. Protector or no, the man who holds the king holds the kingdom. We should seize Myrcella and Tommen as well. Once we have her children, Cersei will not dare oppose us. The council will confirm you as Lord Protector and make Joffrey your ward.”

Ned regarded him coldly. “Robert is not dead yet. The gods may spare him. If not, I shall convene the council to hear his final words and consider the matter of the succession, but I will not dishonor his last hours on earth by shedding blood in his halls and dragging frightened children from their beds.”

 

 

You can basically see Renly's stock with Ned sinking every time he opens his mouth. He isn't asking to enforce the will, he's asking Eddard Stark to act in an underhanded, dishonorable manner- which he should know won't work because he's made an ass of himself once already with Dany's assassination.

 

And that's not the only reason the plan is stupid- Ned has some two dozen men in King's Landing. Even if Renly has a hundred ready they'd still face a hundred Lannisters and the Kingsguard without any certainty of how the goldcloaks will react.

 

Bonus points- he says that in front of Boros Blount, one of Cersei's creatures who will no doubt warn her of such a plot.

 

 

A heroic victory is good for PR and morale, that's a common element in most of Renly's plans. It's not just personal pleasure.

 

Cersei trumps him? If not for Stannis's queef assassin, Renly would have her head on a pike. Cersei's hold on the Small Council is also only as a Queen Regent, and even then, no one is loyal to her.

 

Varys, Pycelle, and Littlefinger are pretty much among the top plotters in the world.

 

Renly not being as adept as them at plotting doesn't make him a weak plotter.

 

Last one to find out about the incest, but the one man to raise a 100k strong host, and to know when to bail when his life is in danger... unlike Stannis who bailed to early, and Ned who decided to stay and got killed.

 

 

 

A victory is a victory. Renly doesn't care about legal precedents and tells Stannis that much but suddenly a more costly victory is worth it because it has a spectacular backdrop? There's no TV in Westeros, the only one who'll appreciate that backdrop is Renly.

 

Cersei won in King's Landing. Renly managed to bail early and escape with his life but that's a pretty weak position to be in. Pycelle is in no way a master plotter. Even Ned thought that his behavior was suspicious and yet he and Cersei totally outwit Renly.

 

As for getting the 100k men- Robert gave Renly the Stormlands and he was the most convenient claimant to the throne for Mace Tyrell to get in an alliance with. Claiming that Renly had any sort of merit in that is absurd.

[ConfusedCounselor]

You can basically see Renly's stock with Ned sinking every time he opens his mouth. He isn't asking to enforce the will, he's asking Eddard Stark to act in an underhanded, dishonorable manner- which he should know won't work because he's made an ass of himself once already with Dany's assassination.

 

And that's not the only reason the plan is stupid- Ned has some two dozen men in King's Landing. Even if Renly has a hundred ready they'd still face a hundred Lannisters and the Kingsguard without any certainty of how the goldcloaks will react.

 

Bonus points- he says that in front of Boros Blount, one of Cersei's creatures who will no doubt warn her of such a plot.

 

 

It doesn't take a genius to work out what is in the will. See how Renly, who you seem to think is some sort of idiot, guesses it in one go? Robert traversed the 7 kingdoms to make Ned his hand, now that he needs a regent and a protector he is going to name someone else? Renly did not wait for an answer, because it was obvious. He could probably read the answer of Eddards face. By not contradicting him Ned basically confirmed it anyway.

 

The plan isn't stupid, it just requires the power of surprise. At this point Ned is still the hand and Renly the King's brother. They have enough cloud to get those swords so close to the children that the gold cloaks are out of the equation and whatever Lannisters aren't close by. The Kingsguard might very well support the Hand and uncle over the mother. 

Sure, Ned doesn't like it, but that doesn't make the plan bad. 

 

:rolleyes: Except Robert's will couldn't even be enforced because Robert wasn't dead, nor did Renly actually know what was in the will. A Game of Thrones:

 

 

You can take steps to ensure a smoother enforcement of a will...

If you know or have good reason to assume your dying uncle wants his car to go to his daughter over his estranged son, it might be a good idea to keep the keys away from said son. 

[Ezko]

 
As for getting the 100k men- Robert gave Renly the Stormlands and he was the most convenient claimant to the throne for Mace Tyrell to get in an alliance with. Claiming that Renly had any sort of merit in that is absurd.

Irrelevant whether he's a great fighter or not.

Using a Stannis quote to support your claims is absurd. Completely biased.

Saying Renly earns no merit for raising a host of 100k men is also absurd. Quite absurd actually.

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

 
 
 
You can take steps to ensure a smoother enforcement of a will...
If you know or have good reason to assume your dying uncle wants his car to go to his daughter over his estranged son, it might be a good idea to keep the keys away from said son. 

>Take steps.
>Ned.

So Renly can't understand that Ned is an by the book, honorable guy who is not going to use underhanded and more than borderline illegal means to get something despite working with him for months.

This from a guy whose greatest talent is dealing with people.

[ConfusedCounselor]

>Take steps.
>Ned.

So Renly can't understand that Ned is an by the book, honorable guy who is not going to use underhanded and more than borderline illegal means to get something despite working with him for months.

This from a guy whose greatest talent is dealing with people.

 

Meh, he hopes Ned has some pragmatic bone in his body somewhere. He might think Ned thinks the will gives him legitimacy to take action. Even if you have a decent handle on who you think someone is, you cannot predict with a 100% accurate prediction as to how someone will act in a difficult spot. 

 

Also, "it is worth a try". He hopes he can work together to keep power away from the Lannistes, comes up with a good plan and hopes Ned will go along. If it doesn't work, not all hope is lost, he can still get out of King's Landing and think of something else. 

 

That something else turns out to be the best shot anyone has at the throne barring "Deus ex Vagina". 

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

 
Meh, he hopes Ned has some pragmatic bone in his body somewhere. He might think Ned thinks the will gives him legitimacy to take action. Even if you have a decent handle on who you think someone is, you cannot predict with a 100% accurate prediction as to how someone will act in a difficult spot. 
 
Also, "it is worth a try". He hopes he can work together to keep power away from the Lannistes, comes up with a good plan and hopes Ned will go along. If it doesn't work, not all hope is lost, he can still get out of King's Landing and think of something else. 
 
That something else turns out to be the best shot anyone has at the throne barring "Deus ex Vagina". 

Eh, I'd also point out that he's made no effort of winning Ned over previously and that even Littlefinger managed to sound more altruistic and trustworthy.

Furthermore Renly hasn't managed to win over or bribe anyone at court. His only attempt at intrigue is shoving a portrait of Maergery Tyrell in Robert's face.

He's clearly understood that the Lannisters are dangerous but on the other hand he's horribly passive and unaware of all the plots brewing in King's Landing. His basic strategy is do nothing until the last moment and then flee and that seems pretty weak for an active plotter.

Same with the spending, same with the military situation. Renly is horribly reactive, procrastinates endlessly and has almost no initiative for things not related to PR.

Agreed that he did managed to gather an alliance but Renly got the Stormlands from Robert and the Reach was mostly Mace wanting the throne and the Loras connection- we never see Renly actually put a good fight either politically or otherwise against anyone.

[thelittledragonthatcould]

Agreed that he did managed to gather an alliance but Renly got the Stormlands from Robert and the Reach was mostly Mace wanting the throne and the Loras connection- we never see Renly actually put a good fight either politically or otherwise against anyone.

 

Of course we don't. He is not  a primary or secondary character but a tertiary character. We don't see the vast majority of what he does.

[ConfusedCounselor]

Eh, I'd also point out that he's made no effort of winning Ned over previously and that even Littlefinger managed to sound more altruistic and trustworthy.

 

Time is of the essence and his and Ned's life are on the line, hardly the time to become a philanthropist. Doesn't seem especially untrustworthy to me. Plan's a good one. Previous attempts? Sure, he could have tried to cosy up to Ned, but Ned is a stickler for rules/honour, a Robert stallward, hardly the ideal playing partner. Only when Robert died became the pressure so high that Ned might be convinced to play, but he wasn't. 

 

Furthermore Renly hasn't managed to win over or bribe anyone at court. His only attempt at intrigue is shoving a portrait of Maergery Tyrell in Robert's face.

 

Where do you think the Tyrells come from? Or any of the friends at court he mentions to Ned? 

 

He's clearly understood that the Lannisters are dangerous but on the other hand he's horribly passive and unaware of all the plots brewing in King's Landing. His basic strategy is do nothing until the last moment and then flee and that seems pretty weak for an active plotter.

 

No, he has the Tyrell plot. He build a powerful backing in those years. As well as the "grab Joffrey plot". Might also have to manage the Stormlands a bit. Sure, no Littlefinger of Varys, but no one is. 

 

Same with the spending, same with the military situation. Renly is horribly reactive, procrastinates endlessly and has almost no initiative for things not related to PR.

 

He isn't really. Reactive would have been to do nothing.  Or to flee to Dragonstone or SE. Stannis fanatics would have loved Renly to be reactive, since then he could have supported his big brother. Instead he solidified his Tyrell alliance, got wed, crowned himself and went about winning a war in a highly effective manner. No evidence for any spending problems. As far as I know SE is not in any debt.

 

Agreed that he did managed to gather an alliance but Renly got the Stormlands from Robert and the Reach was mostly Mace wanting the throne and the Loras connection- we never see Renly actually put a good fight either politically or otherwise against anyone.

 

I must agree with TLDTC on this. Just because you do not see it, does not mean it doesn't happen. Plenty of other people would have loved to have the Reach on his side. Renly got them. Keeping the Stormlands loyal to him also isn't as obvious as you make it out to be. Joffrey is in name a Baratheon and son of Robert and Stannis is his older brother. That could have been cause for some of them to flock to other banners. No one did, because Renly is good at that kind of stuff. 

 

I admit this is pure conjecture, but I think that had it been the other way, had Stannis been the younger brother given SE and had Renly been the older one on Dragonstone, the Lords wouldn't have risen unanimously for Stannis. 

[VeryLittleGravitasIndeed]

Time is of the essence and his and Ned's life are on the line, hardly the time to become a philanthropist. Doesn't seem especially untrustworthy to me. Plan's a good one. Previous attempts? Sure, he could have tried to cosy up to Ned, but Ned is a stickler for rules/honour, a Robert stallward, hardly the ideal playing partner. Only when Robert died became the pressure so high that Ned might be convinced to play, but he wasn't. 

 

 

He misread Ned so thoroughly he made an ass of himself in the send assassins for Dany meeting. If Renly would have actually tried to act respectably and appear trustworthy things may have gone the other way around. Instead nearly every significant interaction with Ned has him acting in ways Ned would severely disapprove- when Ned would be an absolutely extraordinary asset for the Margaery as queen plan.

 

Where do you think the Tyrells come from? Or any of the friends at court he mentions to Ned? 

 

 

Loras' fostering. Also nearly all of Renly's friends are Tyrells or relatives- people he brought in. He didn't form an alliance with any of the existing players.

 

No, he has the Tyrell plot. He build a powerful backing in those years. As well as the "grab Joffrey plot". Might also have to manage the Stormlands a bit. Sure, no Littlefinger of Varys, but no one is. 

 

 

The grab Joffrey plot was a spur of the moment attempt which was haphazard and has little chance of working. Renly didn't even manage to take the Redwyne twins with him when he fled. As for the Tyrell plot- well that's mainly Tyrell. Besides the Tyrells and his own vassals Renly has no other backers. Zero, zip, nada. Not saying that Renly didn't contribute but he certainly doesn't act like the driving force.

 

 

 

 

I must agree with TLDTC on this. Just because you do not see it, does not mean it doesn't happen. Plenty of other people would have loved to have the Reach on his side. Renly got them. Keeping the Stormlands loyal to him also isn't as obvious as you make it out to be. Joffrey is in name a Baratheon and son of Robert and Stannis is his older brother. That could have been cause for some of them to flock to other banners. No one did, because Renly is good at that kind of stuff. 

 

I admit this is pure conjecture, but I think that had it been the other way, had Stannis been the younger brother given SE and had Renly been the older one on Dragonstone, the Lords wouldn't have risen unanimously for Stannis. 

 

Except Renly was the best card for the Reach. Robb and Balon weren't players, Stannis is well... Stannis and the Lannisters are the established power and have little interest of sharing it. Nor was Renly's support unanimous- some houses (like Hightower or Dondarrion) preferred to stay out of it.

[ConfusedCounselor]

 

He misread Ned so thoroughly he made an ass of himself in the send assassins for Dany meeting. If Renly would have actually tried to act respectably and appear trustworthy things may have gone the other way around. Instead nearly every significant interaction with Ned has him acting in ways Ned would severely disapprove- when Ned would be an absolutely extraordinary asset for the Margaery as queen plan.

 

Maybe he was giving his brother what he thought was solid counsil? Having other plans or motives then solely getting into Ned's good graces seems reasonable to me. Ned is quite irrelevant to the Margaery plan, not something he would ever go for. And you think Renly doesn't know Ned well. 

 

Loras' fostering. Also nearly all of Renly's friends are Tyrells or relatives- people he brought in. He didn't form an alliance with any of the existing players.

 

Look, we know he has Tyrell support and support of their bannerman. We know of the Loras connection. It seems simplistic to me to assume nothing else was never needed or advisable. Mace might not go along with Loras lover is he isn't convinced of him. Some bannerman might chose to sit the war out. 

 

The grab Joffrey plot was a spur of the moment attempt which was haphazard and has little chance of working. Renly didn't even manage to take the Redwyne twins with him when he fled. As for the Tyrell plot- well that's mainly Tyrell. Besides the Tyrells and his own vassals Renly has no other backers. Zero, zip, nada. Not saying that Renly didn't contribute but he certainly doesn't act like the driving force.

 

I think the plan was fine and would have worked. Also, if you have 80-90% of the Reach and 100% of the Stormlands, you do not really need other backers, you are there, you are the most powerful guy out there. Reprimanding someone for only securing the Reach is ridiculous. Why wouldn't he act like the driving force? He was King, he was the one in the pickle needing to do something to keep his head, he led negotiations with Catelyn, was clearly in charge. Only in the show is he some Tyrell pawn.  

 

Except Renly was the best card for the Reach. Robb and Balon weren't players, Stannis is well... Stannis and the Lannisters are the established power and have little interest of sharing it. Nor was Renly's support unanimous- some houses (like Hightower or Dondarrion) preferred to stay out of it.

 

Robb wasn't a player? Really? North-Riverlands-Reach is plenty enough to take the throne. Could have easily made an alliance somehow. 

Lannisters had to fight the North, the Riverlands, the Stormlands and it wasn't unreasonable to assume at that point the Eyre and Stannis. They desperately needed allies. And they did become allies, which makes your claim are the more stupefying. Lannisters were the second choice of the Tyrells, after Renly.