What was Janos Slynt's duty to Ned and Cersei?

[falcotron]

From this 1999 SSM, discussing who was to blame to Ned's downfall:
 

Ned's talk with Littlefinger was certainly a turning point, though I am not sure I would call it =the= turning point. There were other crucial decisions that could easily have changed all had they gone differently. You mention Ned's refusal of Renly, which was equally critical. And there is Varys to consider, as well as the minor but crucial player everyone forgets -- Janos Slynt, who might have chosen just to do his duty instead of selling the gold cloaks to the highest bidder.

What exactly was Janos's duty? Obviously he didn't even consider that question for a second, but we can.

 

Let's assume that the other gold cloaks aren't as corrupt as we know them to be; otherwise, Petyr would just go to Janos's second-in-command and make the same deal and Janos wouldn't matter.

Remember, Ned hadn't shared his proof of Joffrey's bastardy with anyone but Renly, Petyr, Stannis (by raven), and Cersei. And he wasn't planning to do so until after he got the small council to validate Robert's will naming him protector and regent, seized control of the government, and given Stannis time to raise his banners and arrive at KL, so he could transfer power smoothly. He acknowledged to himself that this was devious, but didn't see any other choice.

So, put yourself in Janos's place.

 

Robert lies dying. Petyr comes to you and tells you that both Ned and Cersei suspect the other of trying to seize control of the government after he dies. They each want to make sure you'll arrest the other if they do so. He also implies that Cersei is willing to pay a bribe and Ned isn't.

• If you decide to talk to Cersei and Ned tomorrow to find out what they're alleging, turn to page 3.
• If you agree to meet Cersei tomorrow to confirm that she's offering a bribe so you can arrest her for that, turn to page 3.
• If you decide to talk to the master of laws to find out under which conditions either of them would have authority to arrest the other, continue to the next page.

Page 2.

 

You look for Renly, only to discover that no one can find him.

 

You ask around, and Petyr tells you he thinks Renly may have made Ned some kind of offer for a coup that Ned rebuffed, and then fled town.

 

You continue to investigate, and find more evidence that Renly has fled. You decide to talk to Ned about it in the morning.

• Continue to the next page.

Page 3.

 

In the morning, before you can talk to anyone, Robert dies. You're summoned to the throne room, where you see that Joffrey has already been crowned. Joffrey summons the small council to swear fealty. They come in, and Ned insists that Robert's will be read first. Cersei insists the will is irrelevant since Joffrey has been crowned.

 

Ned claims that Joffrey is a bastard, and therefore not king. Joffrey orders Barristan to arrest Ned. Ned's men surround Barristan. Cersei's men draw weapons and move on Ned's men. Both of them are demanding that you arrest the other.

• If you arrest Ned, possibly treasonously abetting Joffrey's usurpation, turn to page 6.
• If you arrest Cersei and Joffrey, possibly treasonously abetting Stannis's usurpation, turn to page 7.
• If you escort Ned to pick up his proof, look it over, and appoint yourself supreme judge over who is the rightful king, turn to page 8.
• If you arrest both of them, leaving the country without a government until you can figure out who's even competent to judge the facts, turn to page 9.
• If you just watch the bloodbath in hopes that the gods will decide who's right, turn in your gold cloak.
• If you lock the doors, and order everyone to stand down, continue to the next page.

Page 4.

 

You do have the largest force in the room, and everyone accepts you as impartial, so everyone settles down, puts away their weapons, and submits to questioning. But all the questioning in the world doesn't resolve the facts.

Now what?

• If you decide to take matters into your own hands, turn to page 5.
• If you do anything else, re-read page 4.

Page 5.

 

You appoint Barristan Selmy as interim protector for Joffrey or Stannis or whoever may be king, and call for a great council to figure out who is king. Everyone in the room agrees at swordpoint.

Tywin, Renly, and Stannis, none of whom are in the room, all declare you a traitor against the very notion of monarchy. They demand that Barristan hand over the protectorship, and start marching on KL.

 

Jaime Lannister kills you, the rest of the kingsguard doing nothing because you're not the king. Joffrey is re-crowned, and shows mercy on Barristan, who never wanted to be protector, and exiles him. He then kills Ned for treason. Robb declares himself KitN, Renly is killed by a shadowbaby, Stannis attacks Blackwater and loses, and so on.

 

For centuries, you're reviled as the man who created the Great Crisis of 299, which led to the War of the Five Kings. But eventually, when Westeros is a republic or a constitutional monarchy, historians reevaluate your actions and decide you were more hero than villain, providing the first precedent that the rule of law trumps the will of kings, and it's too bad that you didn't make any lasting difference.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

The thing about this that never makes actual sense but does work for plot purposes is that Robert seams to have ZERO Stormlander or otherwise forces of his own in KL.  He may be a drunk and a lout at this stage of his life & still thinks himself the best fighter in the world yet it's against character he'd be so dumb that his only personal protection is a KG that has his hateful wife's bro on it and whatever other weaksauce appointees, a ridiculous amount of his hateful wife's household guard all over the place ("surrounded by Lannisters - their blond hair and smug satisfied faces," c'mon Bob!), and a corrupt CityWatch that his hateful wife or Littlefinger or whomever else can bribe and thus swing sides at need.  King Bob was only left so exposed b/c it functioned to further the plot.

 

Ned should have listened to Renly and took the Bastard 'royal' children into custody immediately.  Cersei was smart to crown Joff ASAP - the optics of that alone are very hard to undo.  A cowardly simp like J. Slynt will act in favor of whoever has the crown on their head at the time, no matter the legitimacy. 

[The Bold Wolf]

Janos' duty was to himself. He sold his honour for gold and a lordship. One of my favourite parts of the whole series, is when Jon cuts his head off. 

[falcotron]

The thing about this that never makes actual sense but does work for plot purposes is that Robert seams to have ZERO Stormlander or otherwise forces of his own in KL...

Ned should have listened to Renly and took the Bastard 'royal' children into custody immediately.  Cersei was smart to crown Joff ASAP - the optics of that alone are very hard to undo.  A cowardly simp like J. Slynt will act in favor of whoever has the crown on their head at the time, no matter the legitimacy.

I pretty much agree with all of that, but it still doesn't answer my question. GRRM says that if Janos did his duty, things would have been different. But what was his duty, and how could he have done it?

Janos' duty was to himself.

Sure, that's how Janos saw it. But I'm pretty sure that's not what GRRM meant when he said Janos "might have chosen just to do his duty instead of selling the gold cloaks to the highest bidder".

[Lost Melnibonean]

The problem for Eddard's side was that the King's proclamation naming him regent never made it past the samll council and the queen before Cersei tore it to shreds. If Janos had not been corrupt, he would have been confronted with this choice: 1) obey the Hand of the deceased king and arrest the queen and recognized heir of the king, or 2) obey the queen regent and the king's recognized heir and arrest the hand of the deceased king.

[Harry Angel]

I believe it would be keeping the peace in the event of a struggle occurring in the streets of King's Landing between the Starks/Baratheon and Lannister forces. But since King Robert was dead and made Ned the acting Protector of the Realm before his death Janos would have to follow the king's last wish, assuming he had any honor.

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

Well, the chain of command is never actually laid out for the reader, as to whom the Commander of the Gold Cloaks answers to, besides Littlefinger explaining us a thing about who does he follow when the Queen declares one thing and the Hand another, i.e. the man who pays him.

 

It's a tricky situation, the changing of regimes.  Very dicey.  Very fluid.  Everybody is looking to see who will come out on top and trying to position themselves to be on the winning team, but not yet knowing full well who that will be.  Like I say, as soon as Cersei put the crown on Joff's head, right or wrong, that's who Slynt will do his duty to.  He lied to Ned but Ned was too obtuse to pick up on nuance and understand the realities of corruption in the cesspool of KL.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

This is alot of supposition.

Basically, Slynt's duty was to obey whomever was made regent. That's Ned. He has the paperwork and was read by Barristan Selmy in front of the whole court. Slynt's duty is to not take bribes at all, instead of selling the Gold Cloaks to the highest bidder.

Let's face it. Slynt was never interested in doing "his duty" or the right thing.

[The Bold Wolf]

Sure, that's how Janos saw it. But I'm pretty sure that's not what GRRM meant when he said Janos "might have chosen just to do his duty instead of selling the gold cloaks to the highest bidder".

Ok I understand. I guess what GRRM was getting as is Janos Slynt had a duty to uphold the peace, and law. He chose to defy the law and be loyal to the highest bidder. The Law of succession I think, plus accepting bribes, and inciting a battle or skirmish at the Red Keep.  

[Valyrian Blade]

The thing about this that never makes actual sense but does work for plot purposes is that Robert seams to have ZERO Stormlander or otherwise forces of his own in KL.  He may be a drunk and a lout at this stage of his life & still thinks himself the best fighter in the world yet it's against character he'd be so dumb that his only personal protection is a KG that has his hateful wife's bro on it and whatever other weaksauce appointees, a ridiculous amount of his hateful wife's household guard all over the place ("surrounded by Lannisters - their blond hair and smug satisfied faces," c'mon Bob!), and a corrupt CityWatch that his hateful wife or Littlefinger or whomever else can bribe and thus swing sides at need.  King Bob was only left so exposed b/c it functioned to further the plot.

 

Ned should have listened to Renly and took the Bastard 'royal' children into custody immediately.  Cersei was smart to crown Joff ASAP - the optics of that alone are very hard to undo.  A cowardly simp like J. Slynt will act in favor of whoever has the crown on their head at the time, no matter the legitimacy. 

I find this incredibly hard to believe as well.

 

How come the Lannisters have more guards in the city than the Baratheons? If i was Robert i'd have around 100 Baratheon swords in the castle.

[falcotron]

The problem for Eddard's side was that the King's proclamation naming him regent never made it past the samll council and the queen before Cersei tore it to shreds.

I think you're misremembering the order of events here.

There's no reason for Janos or anyone to believe that the will didn't say exactly what Ned claimed. In full view of Janos and everyone else, Barry presented the will to Cersei, and she tore it up claiming it was no longer relevant because Joff had already been crowned. That's a complicated legal question in itself. Can a minor king appoint a new regent ignoring the wishes of the small council and the will of the former king? I have no idea.

But once Ned made the illegitimacy claim, that question became almost irrelevant. Ned wasn't claiming he had authority to arrest Cersei and Joffrey because he was regent and protector, but because Joffrey was not the king. Joffrey wasn't claiming he had authority to arrest Ned because Ned was only the hand rather than also regent and protector, but because he made fraudulent and treasonous allegations.

If Janos had not been corrupt, he would have been confronted with this choice: 1) obey the Hand of the deceased king and arrest the queen and recognized heir of the king, or 2) obey the queen regent and the king's recognized heir and arrest the hand of the deceased king.

If you put it that way, then there was no reason to bribe Janos in the first place, Janos actually did his duty, and GRRM is wrong. But you have to twist a lot of things to put it that way.

[falcotron]

This is alot of supposition.

Which part? The only piece of supposition up to the end of "page 3" is that, if he'd wanted to, Janos could probably find out that Renly had fled town after talking to Ned, which doesn't affect anything. Everything else is exactly what happened in the books.

Basically, Slynt's duty was to obey whomever was made regent. That's Ned. He has the paperwork and was read by Barristan Selmy in front of the whole court.

Except that Cersei claimed that the will was irrelevant because a new king had been crowned, and Ned never contested that, so why shouldn't Janos accept Cersei's assertion as true?

What Ned did instead was to switch his argument to claiming that Joffrey was illegitimate. And, while Ned is known to be a pretty trustworthy guy, that's a pretty big claim to drop out of the blue, with no evidence, and expect the gold cloaks to just trust his word.

And meanwhile, both parties seem to be acting pretty deviously. Cersei as much as tells everyone that she doesn't care about the law, while Ned is strongly implying (and will surely later admit) that he planned to hide the truth about Joffrey in hopes of pulling off a bloodless coup before having to reveal it.

Let's face it. Slynt was never interested in doing "his duty" or the right thing.

Well, duh. That's why the second sentence of my post was "Obviously he didn't even consider that question for a second..." Not to mention that it's implicitly obvious in GRRM's own statement.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

Doesnt matter if Joffrey is crowned. The regent has the power. Janos knows this, but doesnt care, and neither does Cersei. Cant take law advice from a woman who admits tge law means nothing to her.

Nevertheless the Regent does not have the power to depose the King, which is why Ned has to assert that Joffrey isnt the King anyways. So even if we acknowledge that Joffrey is King, he does not have the power to arrest the regent. If Slynt wants to remain impartial, he can agree to protect Joffrey, but refuse to arrest Ned. Ned then has to call a great council or whatnot, present his evidence, etc.

[falcotron]

Doesnt matter if Joffrey is crowned. The regent has the power. Janos knows this, but doesnt care, and neither does Cersei. Cant take law advice from a woman who admits tge law means nothing to her.

Nevertheless the Regent does not have the power to depose the King, which is why Ned has to assert that Joffrey isnt the King anyways. So even if we acknowledge that Joffrey is King, he does not have the power to arrest the regent. If Slynt wants to remain impartial, he can agree to protect Joffrey, but refuse to arrest Ned. Ned then has to call a great council or whatnot, present his evidence, etc.

You really need to actually read the text. Ned was clearly not intending to assert that Joffrey isn't the king. He even thought to himself about how distastefully devious he was being by keeping that secret, but it was necessary until he could peacefully transfer power to Stannis. He had no intention of deposing the king that day, only getting himself confirmed as that king's regent and protector of the realm.

Also, Ned had no intention of calling a great council later. Again, from his own thoughts, we know that his plan was to act as Joffrey's regent until Stannis arrived, and then reveal the truth and hand the crown to Stannis.

Ned only made the illegitimacy claim after Cersei argued that Robert's will was irrelevant, and he had to switch to a desperate Plan B.

[Raving Stark the Mad]

None of this refutes the concept that the regent has the powers of the King. The King cannot arrest the regent. Joffrey claims to be King. Ned has to get rid of him by bringing in Stannis. Nobody is going to get Joffrey to just hop off the IT. So the regent has to make the claim, eventually, that Joffrey is not the true heir. Otherwise the duty of the GC is unclear.

[falcotron]

None of this refutes the concept that the regent has the powers of the King.

I'll try to explain this one more time. If you still don't get it, I'm done with you.

After Ned's claim of Joffrey's legitimacy, the regency question becomes irrelevant. The regent of someone who isn't the king doesn't have the powers of the king. And if Ned is lying, then, regent or not, he's clearly a traitor. Either way, nobody cares if Robert's will was valid and binding anymore. But, even if anyone did care, Cersei argued that it wasn't, and Ned offered no response to that.

Joffrey claims to be King. Ned has to get rid of him by bringing in Stannis. Nobody is going to get Joffrey to just hop off the IT. So the regent has to make the claim, eventually, that Joffrey is not the true heir. Otherwise the duty of the GC is unclear.

Are you trying to discuss a hypothetical situation where Ned's Plan A actually worked because Cersei didn't do anything about it, and eventually Janos had to make a decision, weeks later, when Stannis was in town with his army and Ned went public with his proof and Joffrey's removal was a fait accompli and the legality of it clear to everyone? If so, that has nothing to do with GRRM's statement, or my question, so, even if I knew what your point were, I wouldn't have any interest in debating it.

[Lord Wraith]

Let's face it. Slynt was never interested in doing "his duty" or the right thing.

 

:agree:

[Raving Stark the Mad]

I'll try to explain this one more time. If you still don't get it, I'm done with you.

After Ned's claim of Joffrey's legitimacy, the regency question becomes irrelevant. The regent of someone who isn't the king doesn't have the powers of the king. And if Ned is lying, then, regent or not, he's clearly a traitor. Either way, nobody cares if Robert's will was valid and binding anymore. But, even if anyone did care, Cersei argued that it wasn't, and Ned offered no response to that.

I think you dont seem to understand that I disagree with you. The regency still does apply.

On one hand you have one guy saying "I am the Regent, he is not the King, arrest him"

On the other you have "I am the King, he is a traitor, arrest him".

The Regent is appointed over the King. Joffrey claiming to be King does not change this. Claiming that Joffrey is not the king does not make Ned not the Regent. It just means that someone else is the King (Stannis).

Ned doesnt need to continue to debate with cersei because cops dont debate with perps. Ned isnt making a case. He's making an arrest.

The will clearly makes Ned the Regent, and also clearly does not designate Joffrey as Robert's heir. The will is the key document and it doesnt matter what Cersei or Ned say about it or dont say about it.

[falcotron]

I think you dont seem to understand that I disagree with you. The regency still does apply.

Of course I understand that you disagree with me. How could you possibly take an argument as thinking that we're in agreement?

I don't want to be rude here, but clearly, you either don't understand what I'm saying, don't understand the text, or both. You keep saying things that make no sense, no matter how charitably I try to interpret them, except with that assumption. Some of it isn't even wrong, but not even about the right topic. I don't know how to keep responding to that, except to say that you're not helping the discussion of this thread in any way.

[Ser Arthur Hightower]

The thing about this that never makes actual sense but does work for plot purposes is that Robert seams to have ZERO Stormlander or otherwise forces of his own in KL.  He may be a drunk and a lout at this stage of his life & still thinks himself the best fighter in the world yet it's against character he'd be so dumb that his only personal protection is a KG that has his hateful wife's bro on it and whatever other weaksauce appointees, a ridiculous amount of his hateful wife's household guard all over the place ("surrounded by Lannisters - their blond hair and smug satisfied faces," c'mon Bob!), and a corrupt CityWatch that his hateful wife or Littlefinger or whomever else can bribe and thus swing sides at need.  King Bob was only left so exposed b/c it functioned to further the plot.

 

Ned should have listened to Renly and took the Bastard 'royal' children into custody immediately.  Cersei was smart to crown Joff ASAP - the optics of that alone are very hard to undo.  A cowardly simp like J. Slynt will act in favor of whoever has the crown on their head at the time, no matter the legitimacy. 

 

Essentially. Robert as a usurper in his predecessor's city should have forces of his own, a few dozen of his best knights who were beside him on the Trident, or a few hundred elite Marcher archers.

 

For some reason Robert surrounds himself with Lannisters and potential Targaryen loyalists, it would also make sense if he were to put Stormlanders/Rivermen/Valemen/northmen who he can trust around King's Landing and Blackwater Bay, from what we can tell the nobility in the Crownlands hasn't changed since Robert took power, which seems very stupid.