From Death to Dawn: Jon Will Rise and The Sword of the Morning

[Voice]

 

 

 

 

On the other hand...

 

 

She dreamed.  All her cares fell away from her, and all her pains as well, and she seemed to float upward into the sky. She was flying once again, spinning, laughing, dancing, as the stars wheeled around her and whispered secrets in her ear.  “To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward, you must go back. To touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.”

 

“Quaithe?” Dany called.  “Where are you, Quaithe?”  Then she saw.  Her mask is made of starlight. 

 

“Remember who you are, Daenerys,” the stars whispered in a woman’s voice.  “The dragons know. Do you?” 

 

The next morning she woke stiff and sore and aching, with ants crawling on her arms and legs and face.  When she realized what they were, she kicked aside the stalks of dry brown grass that had served as her bed and blanket and struggled to her feet.  She had bites all over her, little red bumps, itchy and inflamed.  Where did all the ants come from?  Dany brushed them from her arms and legs and belly.  She ran a hand across her stubbly scalp where her hair had burned away, and felt more ants on her head, and one crawling down the back of her neck.  She knocked them off and crushed them under her bare feet.  There were so many …  It turned out that their anthill was on the other side of her wall.  She wondered how the ants had managed to climb over it and find her.  To them these tumbledown stones must loom as huge as the Wall of Westeros.  The biggest wall in all the world, her brother Viserys used to say, as proud as if he’d built it himself.  (ADWD, Daenerys)

 

 

Yup. Ice Spiders. But I question your use of red font for the starry lines.

 

 

This is an interesting passage--Dany's being told to look back. She says "if I look back I am lost," but Quaithe is asserting a basic truth--you have to find out who you are. And to do that, she has to look/go back.

 

But when she wakes, and she does think of the Wall--an era of history vastly predating the Valyrian dragon-lords--she still thinks of Viserys and his reactions to it. It doesn't give her pause about what she is doing. Now or later. Even though the ants seem to be a hint that this approach is foolish.

 

But the sword doesn't fit him--he thinks about how he wants another one. How it's not enough. When Mormont gives it to him, he's thinking it's not the one he wants or needs. He needs the true greatsword of his father. Needs his father to tell him that he is worthy of the name Stark. So, the magic of the sword isn't just its being powerful. It's also its tie to his identity and family. The bastard sword is recognition from his father-figure--good in the interim, but not enough. He needs the father's sword.

 

Throw in the tie to the Wall--as cool as Longclaw is, Jon needs Dawn.

 

Yup.

 

 

 

 

 

I don't agree with your interpretation of the Dany incident. How do the ants signify anything as foolish? I'm not following you here. Seems like you're reaching a bit.  If anything, looking backwards - finally, we agree she needs to do this - she is killing Others at the Wall.  Viserys is not the main point there.  If that tidbit means anything, it's a clue that dragon-blooded people might have something to do with building the Wall, which makes sense because the NW are swords in the darkness, and they wield fire, and they are black shadows. That's all fire magic symbolism.

 

 I think the obvious thing is Dany crushing the wall climbers. They are no real threat to her - she is shit stomping the fuck out of them. Just like in this scene:

 

That night she dreamt that she was Rhaegar, riding to the Trident.  But she was mounted on a dragon, not a horse.  When she saw the Usurper’s rebel host across the river they were armored all in ice, but she bathed them in dragonfire and they melted away like dew and turned the Trident into a torrent.  Some small part of her knew that she was dreaming, but another part exulted. This is how it was meant to be. The other was a nightmare, and I have only now awakened. 

 

She woke suddenly in the darkness of her cabin, still flush with triumph. Balerion seemed to wake with her, and she heard the faint creak of wood, water lapping against the hull, a footfall on the deck above her head. And something else. Someone was in the cabin with her. “Irri? Jhiqui? Where are you?” Her handmaids did not respond. It was too black to see, but she could hear them breathing. “Jorah, is that you?” 

 

“They sleep,” a woman said. “They all sleep.” The voice was very close. “Even dragons must sleep.” 

 

She is standing over me. “Who’s there?” Dany peered into the darkness. She thought she could see a shadow, the faintest outline of a shape. “What do you want of me?” 

 

“Remember. To go north, you must journey south. To reach the west, you must go east. To go forward you must go back, and to touch the light you must pass beneath the shadow.” 

 

“Quaithe? ” Dany sprung from the bed and threw open the door. Pale yellow lantern light flooded the cabin, and Irri and Jhiqui sat up sleepily.   (ASOS, Daenerys)

 

Once again, Quaithe's advice seems to be steering Dany towards fighting the Others. 

 

 

I feel bad I am not seeing the two moons with as much as you are seeing Ice Spiders. :cheers: I'll keep trying, LmL...

[J. Stargaryen]

 

 

Great post. :thumbsup: I also thought there were some God-Emperor section parallels with Robert's Rebellion and maybe present day Westeros. For example, the Bloodstone Emperor is called a usurper, and bloodstone is usually green spotted with red. This reminds me of Robert spilling Rhaegar's rubies into the Green Fork of the Trident. And of course Robert himself is called Usurper literally dozens of times in the book, something he acknowledges himself.

 

In a similar vein to what you're saying about the geography parallels, there's a section from AGoT, Daenerys III that sticks out to me as a possilbe parallel for north of the Wall.

 

 

Those descriptions could probably be used to describe the Frostfangs which has icy waterfalls, and Hardhome whose caves are supposedly haunted by shrieking ghosts. Also, maybe a case could be made for connecting the three western forks of the Milkwater to the previous sentence.

 

 

Thanks J. Star!  I like this.  Mind you, from that description of Norvos, I almost see the Trident instead and Harrenhal.  I will have to go back and read it in context.  I don't have much of a head for retaining the geographical details, it' mostly the cultural ones I remember.

 

I will also reread the Bloodstone Emperor part.  That bit screamed at me Night's King, except that there is no Amethyst Empress in the Night's King tale.  Everything else is almost the same.  But I love that image of the rubies in the green fork, and the usurper parallel, so wonder if this is not also one of George's echoes that I talked about upthread.  Will reread for sure!

 

 

That was my first thought too. And I had also considered HH. But with the other would be parallels lying beyond the Wall, I reconsidered. However, if you are correct, then perhaps the Valyrian road is a reference to the Kingsroad. Possibly as a contrast, since the latter winds back and forth. The Kingsroad was of course built by a Valryian, after all.

 

Here is a link to a map of the lands beyond the Wall - http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/6/6c/Westeros_-_Byound_the_wall.jpg

[Voice]

And I do NOT think Jon alone will save the day. The NW oath is about identity, but it is also about unity. They ALL say they are the sword and the shield, etc.Like Sam. Bran is in the position of knowing the most. Sansa seems to be reconnecting with the dead--which might get interesting (please, don't have kept her alive for nothing but lemon cakes. I am sick of lemons). And am thinking Arya, Jaime, and Brienne, and hopefully Davos will get something to do. Lots of roles. And lots of fronts for the fight--watchers on walls--plural.

 

Actually, while the "walls" are plural (the vows predate the Wall), the "watcher" is singular.

 

The vows do not really promote unity. If anything, they hammer home (forge) a deep sense of isolation.

 

NK's Amendment (Ice):

 

Night gathers, and now my watch begins.

It shall not end until my death.

I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children.

I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.

I shall live and die at my post.

 

Vow spoken at the Black Gate (Dawnbringer, the old vows):

 

I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.

 

Post script (sounds like debtor's prison vow):

 

I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

[Lady Barbrey]

 

That was my first thought too. And I had also considered HH. But with the other would be parallels lying beyond the Wall, I reconsidered. However, if you are correct, then perhaps the Valyrian road is a reference to the Kingsroad. Possibly as a contrast, since the latter winds back and forth. The Kingsroad was of course built by a Valryian, after all.

 

Here is a link to a map of the lands beyond the Wall - http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/6/6c/Westeros_-_Byound_the_wall.jpg

 

There is a parallel to Valyrian roads in Yi Ti.  The pearl eunuchs made them, a wonder, almost as impressive as Valyrian roads, they say.  So another mirror image in Yi Ti of western civ.  It might be more productive to start with the furthest reaches - Land of Always Winter and Asshai - and work backwords towards a middle?

[J. Stargaryen]

There is a parallel to Valyrian roads in Yi Ti.  The pearl eunuchs made them, a wonder, almost as impressive as Valyrian roads, they say.  So another mirror image in Yi Ti of western civ.  It might be more productive to start with the furthest reaches - Land of Always Winter and Asshai - and work backwords towards a middle?

 

That makes sense, though it might be tricky since we don't have a map extending into the Land of Always Winter. But it already seems like you've made a bunch of good connections, so I'll trust your instincts here.

 

One thing that anyone who's looked at the maps has probably noticed, is that Westeros is laid out quite vertically (north-south), while Essos is very horizontal (east-west). In fact, they almost form a right angle. - http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:WorldofIceandFire.png

 

I'm not sure exactly what it means, but it forms a rather stark contrast. And, it wouldn't surprise me to find many similarities, or even contrasts, between the two.

[Lady Barbrey]

 

That was my first thought too. And I had also considered HH. But with the other would be parallels lying beyond the Wall, I reconsidered. However, if you are correct, then perhaps the Valyrian road is a reference to the Kingsroad. Possibly as a contrast, since the latter winds back and forth. The Kingsroad was of course built by a Valryian, after all.

 

Here is a link to a map of the lands beyond the Wall - http://awoiaf.westeros.org/images/6/6c/Westeros_-_Byound_the_wall.jpg

 

There is a parallel to Valyrian roads in Yi Ti.  The pearl eunuchs made them, a wonder, almost as impressive as Valyrian roads, they say.  So another mirror image in Yi Ti of western civ.  It might be more productive to start with the furthest reaches - Land of Always Winter and Asshai - and work backwards towards a middle?  I saw a round map once of the whole world, quite stylized, but it put The Others and Asshai at exact opposites NW and SE with old Valyria smack in the middle of them.  That I think is more what I think of.   But it's not the geography and ecology that stands out for me - it is very different - it is the equivalencies of the Yi Ti past to the Westerosi present, and the similar magical properties of people and places.  Also, some other passages in the same section reflect Westeros and additional major players.  I particularly like that Illyrio through the yellow symbolism is connected to a present day yellow emperor in Carcosa with an ancient line.  Lovecraftian term, I know because I've actually read him and Bierce, but it does make Illyrio a much more sinister character to me!  And possibly, through that and his rings, does take us back to the GeoDawn.  I should probably start another thread on this.  Had you heard of it before?  I googled and searched on here but couldn't find anyone making the God Emperors to Westerosi gameplayer connections.  

[Lady Barbrey]

 

That makes sense, though it might be tricky since we don't have a map extending into the Land of Always Winter. But it already seems like you've made a bunch of good connections, so I'll trust your instincts here.

 

One thing that anyone who's looked at the maps has probably noticed, is that Westeros is laid out quite vertically (north-south), while Essos is very horizontal (east-west). In fact, they almost form a right angle. - http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/File:WorldofIceandFire.png

 

I'm not sure exactly what it means, but it forms a rather stark contrast. And, it wouldn't surprise me to find many similarities, or even contrasts, between the two.

 

 I wondered if the description of Asshai in the world book might be giving us hints to the North, and that something as sinister was there as in Asshai, shadowlands, monsters, unnatural hybrids, unnatural sorcery, radiation that changed people, etc.  There must be a "shadow" there too I'm thinking.

 

I have no idea why we have that L of the world though I just thought it was based on the British Isles and the rest of Eurasia, with the British Isles hugely enlarged and Europe and Asia condensed.

 

Thanks for the links!

[Sly Wren]

 

This created a really cool idea in my head.

 

I've often equated the blue rose growing from the chink in the Wall as Lyanna's love piercing Arthur Dayne's vows as a kingsguard knight (the Wall = Dawn and Shield). But what if Dawn itself is a piece of the Wall? Like, literally, born from the chink?

 

It's random and tangential to this discussion but I kinda like it.

I like the idea of the rose's piercing a chink in vows. The KG vows are similar to the NW. And, if all the previous speculation about the Daynes' being the sword's guardians has any validity--Arthur the Dayne (Hamlet is now in my head) as Sword of the Morning would have a kind of oath to the purpose of the sword.

 

I buy hook, line, and sinker that the Wall and Dawn are connected--as you know from the OP. And I could see Dawn as being transformed from the ice from the Wall. Or made with similar magics. The Wall weeps on warmish days. No such descriptions re: Dawn. So--thinking it's not just a chink of the Wall.

 

But I will have a think on it--especially in light of the Arthurian imagery. . . 

 

Wow. This thread moved quick! I'm up to pg 21.... still working through it all....

 

 

The feeling is more than mutual LB :cheers:

 

Thank you and everyone for all the amazing ideas, and most of all many thanks to Sly Wren for putting this brilliant OP together!

Amen, Voice and Lady Barbery--the feeling is entirely mutual. I thought this thread might be controversial or contentious, but everyone's been fabulous, whether we agree with each other or not. 

 

And  :cheers: But, as I said on TLH, this really is all your fault. Put ideas into bird heads and things will happen.

[Sly Wren]

Once I realized this, it accomplished so many things and supported so many themes in the book.  One is the cyclical nature of the Song, history repeating itself, under whatever guise of north or south, the present is the past.  The other is that a journey to the Others, into the heart of winter, or to Asshai, into the heart of darkness, is essentially the same journey. I'd have to go back in to make sure, but I think the mirror journey likely starts at the Womb of the World, so travelling southeast from there is a mirror journey to travelling northwest.  As a student of archeology, I know the Black Sea area is a pinpointed origin for Indo European culture, civilization, etc., and it's placed on Planetos in the same area.

 

So many things I could get into here!  But I guess what I'm saying is that Dany doesn't have to go "back" to Asshai (though I would love it if she tried).  She has to go back to the Womb (paralleling Jon's journey to the crypts? - remember Bran's dream about the crypts and Ned telling him seomthing "important" about Jon - this is a journey to the "mother" I would suggest, for both of them, and it is echoed in Jaime's dream where he meets his mother), where she's heading now, before turning around and making her journey northwest to the Others.  Whatever could be found in Asshai can also be found in the Land of Always Winter.

Big "Hurray!" on the entire post.

 

But I wanted to focus just on the above: Fully agree on the cyclical nature of the journey. And that Dany and Jon are both going back to their "wombs." For Jon--crypts of Winterfell--he's lived on them his entire life. But Dany's got a problem--her "home" is the house with the red door. Lemongate or no, she can't get back there because she doesn't know where it is. Dany treats Westeros as home--even as she longs for the red door. Hard for Dany to "go back" to the womb, to her roots, when she's struggling to know even where or what they are.

 

Second--can't quite agree that going to the heart of fire (Asshai) and heart of winter are exactly the same. Both Asshai and Valyrian freehold self-destructed. And we don't know why. So, if the cycles hold and no one is trying to find out what happened in Asshai and Valyria--things don't look good.

 

Whereas the story of the Long Night has been "preserved"--tales, the Wall itself, the weirwoods. And the North somehow defeated the Long Night. Vs. Asshai and Valyria. So, really seems like there's a difference in the two cycles.

[Lady Barbrey]

One more thing on the NW and SE similarities and then I'll stop.  But couldn't help myself.  The name Lomas Longstrider rang a few personal bells for me.  I'm related to Canadian John Rae, called Longstrider, and still have his last name as my middle name.  Here's the short intro on Wikipedia about him:

 

John Rae (Inuktitut Aglooka ᐊᒡᓘᑲ English: "long strider") (30 September 1813 – 22 July 1893) was a Scottish doctor whoexplored Northern Canada, surveyed parts of the Northwest Passage and reported the fate of the Franklin Expedition. In 1846–47 he explored the Gulf of Boothia northwest of Hudson Bay. In 1848–51 he explored the Arctic coast near Victoria Island. In 1854 he went from Boothia to the Arctic coast and learned the fate of Franklin. He was noted for physical stamina, skill at hunting and boat handling, use of native methods and the ability to travel long distances with little equipment while living off the land.

 

I think George used him as a base, with other explorers of course, but you'll notice something here that I think tangentially supports my theory.  The original Longstrider explored the farthest NORTH, while here we have him exploring the east and south. :)

[Voice]

I like the idea of the rose's piercing a chink in vows. The KG vows are similar to the NW. And, if all the previous speculation about the Daynes' being the sword's guardians has any validity--Arthur the Dayne (Hamlet is now in my head) as Sword of the Morning would have a kind of oath to the purpose of the sword.

 

I buy hook, line, and sinker that the Wall and Dawn are connected--as you know from the OP. And I could see Dawn as being transformed from the ice from the Wall. Or made with similar magics. The Wall weeps on warmish days. No such descriptions re: Dawn. So--thinking it's not just a chink of the Wall.

 

But I will have a think on it--especially in light of the Arthurian imagery. . .

 

Please do :)

 

I can't remember where I wrote up the long version. I don't think it was Heresy. But yup. The Wall serves as an easy parallel to Dawn and LB. And, it's white and iridescent, like the enameled scales of kingsguard armor. Thus, the Wall can serve as a metaphor for Arthur Dayne himself....All we need is the explanation of the rose, filling the air with sweetness.

 

Lyanna has it:

 

Love is sweet, dearest Ned...

 

Mayhaps she didn't change Arthur's nature, just as Arianne did not change Arys Oakheart's? She sure worked her way in and caused that chink in the armor though.

 

A blue flower grew from a chink in a wall of ice, and filled the air with sweetness.

 

A she wolf flowered from a weakness in white armor, and filled the air with love.

 

(The Lilly Potter Angle... LOL)

 

I think one could also make the argument that the air is filled with flowery scents, normally, during springtime. This gives us the False Spring conception, and why Maester Luwin must tell Cat and Jon that bastards grow up faster than trueborn children. It's because he's older.

 

 

Amen, Voice and Lady Barbery--the feeling is entirely mutual. I thought this thread might be controversial or contentious, but everyone's been fabulous, whether we agree with each other or not. 

 

And  :cheers: But, as I said on TLH, this really is all your fault. Put ideas into bird heads and things will happen.

 

Haha! Well, I'm honored the bird found the voice worthy of consideration. It is controversial, and contentious, in certain circles. You have been fortunate that the visitors to the thread have been kind and constructive. Tis not always the case, I'm afraid, and quite unique on a first-OP.

[Sly Wren]

 

Actually, while the "walls" are plural (the vows predate the Wall), the "watcher" is singular.

 

The vows do not really promote unity. If anything, they hammer home (forge) a deep sense of isolation.

 

NK's Amendment (Ice):

 

Night gathers, and now my watch begins.

It shall not end until my death.

I shall take no wife, hold no lands, father no children.

I shall wear no crowns and win no glory.

I shall live and die at my post.

 

Vow spoken at the Black Gate (Dawnbringer, the old vows):

 

I am the sword in the darkness. I am the watcher on the walls. I am the fire that burns against the cold, the light that brings the dawn, the horn that wakes the sleepers, the shield that guards the realms of men.

 

Post script (sounds like debtor's prison vow):

 

I pledge my life and honor to the Night's Watch, for this night and all the nights to come.

True--but it is also a vow sworn in unity. As Nan says, the Last Hero did NOT work alone. He had companions.

 

And the Black Gate vows--seem more about who has sworn himself to that vow, not who is the singular savior. Single devotion, yes, but all of the things done in the vow--not a job for one man.

[Lady Barbrey]

Big "Hurray!" on the entire post.

 

But I wanted to focus just on the above: Fully agree on the cyclical nature of the journey. And that Dany and Jon are both going back to their "wombs."For Jon--crypts of Winterfell--he's lived on them his entire life. But Dany's got a problem--her "home' is the house with the red door. Lemongate or no, she can't get back there because she doesn't know where it is. Dany treats Westeros as home--even as she longs for the red door. Hard for Dany to "go back" to the womb, to her roots, when she's straggly to know even where or what they are.

 

Second--can't quite agree that going to the heart of fire (Asshai) and heart of winter are exactly the same. Both Asshai and Valyrian freehold self-destructed. And we don't know why. So, if the cycles hold and no one is trying to find out what happened in Asshai and Valyria--things don't look good.

 

Whereas the story of the Long Night has been "preserved"--tales, the Wall itself, the weirwoods. And the North somehow defeated the Long Night. Vs. Asshai and Valyria. So, really seems like there's a difference in the two cycles.

Yes, perhaps, but I think they are very related, two sides of the same coin.  And we don't actually know what happened up north.  But that the Others 'make' children rather than birth them, as has been indicated and I think will prove out in the books, is one suggestion that they are connected.  No children in Asshai, which seemed out of place to me.  Perhaps as one cycle rises the other descends as has been said often enough.  Pure theory though!  Still if you ever read the World book again, take a close look at that section starting with the God Emperor list and go on to Asshai and tell me what you think.

[LmL]

Well since we're talking about Asshai and sorcery, go east to go west, I'm just going to tell everyone here what I recently saw in the World book - that you all might have heard of or seen yourselves and I was just particularly obtuse on my first read.  I can't bring in quotes, though, cause my kindle world book doesn't let me.  

 

I was looking at a few easter eggs under the list of prominent God-Emperors of Yi Ti, and realized that they're all contemporary game players over in Westeros hidden under Asian details.  The grey emperor who is always riding from battle to battle his whole reign, for instance, is Rob Stark; the yellow emperor with the Valyrian wife and a dragon at his court is Illyrio; the pearl white nine eunuchs represent Varys, the scarlet sorceror is Bloodraven, the glittery one with the golden chamberpots is Tywin, the other scarlet I Claudius one is Tyrion, etc.  There were a number of puns and parallels on here I think are either a wink at the fans or a confirmation.  For instance, Tyrion and Bloodraven sharing the same scarlet emperor lineage points to A+J=T (or twist, Bloodraven+J=T) but whatever, they're saying Tyrion is a Targ, like I say as either a wink at fan theory, confirmation of it or both.. Bloodraven eating brains is a wink at Jojen paste too, which I never bought, but who knew?. There are a number of fun things like this as you read this section, and as you go on because it becomes like a game (that I played at 3 am this morning!)

 

Anyway, I keep reading after I see this and am hit by a secondary parallel that keeps going.  The World Book goes from Yi Ti, to the Jogos Nhai to Leng to Asshai.  Moreover the Five Forts are just like the Wall in intention.  Why does this all seem so familiar?  Because as you travel east to Asshai from Yi Ti you travel from the realms of men to the heart of darkness and the writers have purposefully described each site along the way in terms reminiscent of travelling northwest instead of southeast.  Strip the Asian imagery and detail and we've got wildlings and shapeshifters over the Wall, the cannibals of Skagos, and finally the realm of the Others, Asshai.  Where they have no children.

 

Once I realized this, it accomplished so many things and supported so many themes in the book.  One is the cyclical nature of the Song, history repeating itself, under whatever guise of north or south, the present is the past.  The other is that a journey to the Others, into the heart of winter, or to Asshai, into the heart of darkness, is essentially the same journey. I'd have to go back in to make sure, but I think the mirror journey likely starts at the Womb of the World, so travelling southeast from there is a mirror journey to travelling northwest.  As a student of archeology, I know the Black Sea area is a pinpointed origin for Indo European culture, civilization, etc., and it's placed on Planetos in the same area.

 

So many things I could get into here!  But I guess what I'm saying is that Dany doesn't have to go "back" to Asshai (though I would love it if she tried).  She has to go back to the Womb (paralleling Jon's journey to the crypts? - remember Bran's dream about the crypts and Ned telling him seomthing "important" about Jon - this is a journey to the "mother" I would suggest, for both of them, and it is echoed in Jaime's dream where he meets his mother), where she's heading now, before turning around and making her journey northwest to the Others.  Whatever could be found in Asshai can also be found in the Land of Always Winter.

 

I think we're all on board about Dany, by the way.  I am absolutely a fan of the character, but in the same way I'm a fan of all the complex characters in the book.  I think young beautiful girls are so often cut outs in popular culture, even the bitchin ones follow cut out patterns.  So glad George doesn't make either Sansa or Dany a talking pretty head, even though that's how both of them start out.

 

 

:bowdown: Lady Barbrey!!  :bowdown:

 

Bingo sauce! I had been pondering the overly-detailed descriptions of those emperors as well, but never put it together. I think you've definitely nailed though, all of your correlations make sense. And I've seen the same technique used in TWOIAF, so I have no doubt you've keyed in on Martin's attention. I am sufficiently impressed, dang impressed. 

 

The point, besides a clever nod and a wink, is to feed us clues, such as Tyrion Targaryen. This is without a doubt the most obscure proof of A + J = T (which is definitely true in  my opinion, I find the case to be at least as compelling as RLJ and cannot believe how willfully blind people are being about this). In a way, though, the obscurity of the evidence is more compelling. It's either an easter egg intended to tell us just what you claim, or it's nothing at all.  And I just ain't got time for the "that's just coincidence!" crowd at this point. I've spent too much time analyzing the text in great detail to even acknowledge that opinion as relevant. But whatever. Faclotron can preach his non-belief all he wants to. There will always be skeptics. 

 

The golden chamberpots definitely screamed Tywin, that was the one I was staring at, thinking, "there is something here." 

 

You might enjoy considering that the Wombof the World and the cold black pond at Winterfell are a match for each other. Cold black water, supposedly no bottom, and tied to the creation / origin story of their peoples. The Godswood and the crypts (and the First Keep above the crypts) are the most important parts of WF, and the Godswood is the first part of WF we see. And of course, at the very beginning of that scene, GRR< spends a lot of time talking about Ice and its dark glow, the blood on the blade, the ritualistic act of cleaning the blood in the pound - this is the first scene he chose to show us. Like the prologue north of the Wall, I believe this first chapter at an important locale is setting up all of the themes for the entire series pertaining to that subject. That's why I keep saying that ICE is the most important sword in the story, not Dawn. That's just my take. Ice and oathkeeper are just so central to so many people and events... anyway. I digress.

 

I still think she has something in Asshai. Totally agree on all the parallels, certainly many have noticed some part of that. Cersei even refers to the north as a "grey waste" in AGOT when Ned confronts her and Joff in the throne room (look out behind you, Ned!)  Shapechangers = skinchangers, thats easy enough to see. And I've been seeing the heart of shadow in Asshai as an opposite to the heart of winter for a long time. So we agree 1000% on all of that. 

 

Just don't sleep on the importance of Asshai - its prominently featured all through the series, especially in book one. 

[Voice]

True--but it is also a vow sworn in unity. As Nan says, the Last Hero did NOT work alone. He had companions.

 

And the Black Gate vows--seem more about who has sworn himself to that vow, not who is the singular savior. Single devotion, yes, but all of the things done in the vow--not a job for one man.

 

I completely agree the lone wolf dies and the pack survives, I'm just sayin the vows seem to convey a message of isolation. They are said in unity, when there are brothers to say them with, otherwise, they are a solitary prayer.

 

The Black Gate vows are said many times, alone, throughout the books. We've had some very good discussions about them in Heresy. I should start a thread at the Last Heart on the subject. (No page/post limits there, and we won't have to backup everything in a word file)

[LmL]

 

 

 

The candle was unpleasantly bright. There was something queer about it. The flame did not flicker, even when Archmaester Marwyn closed the door so hard that papers blew off a nearby table. The light did something strange to colors too. Whites were bright as fresh-fallen snow, yellow shone like gold, reds turned to flame, but the shadows were so black they looked like holes in the world. Sam found himself staring. The candle itself was three feet tall and slender as a sword, ridged and twisted, glittering black. "Is that . . . ?"

 

". . . obsidian," said the other man in the room, a pale, fleshy, pasty-faced young fellow with round shoulders, soft hands, close-set eyes, and food stains on his robes.

 

 

:cheers:  Exactly. It's all over the place - I mean, we have a sword called "Lightbringer" which supposedly returned light and love to the world. There cannot be any debate about this, but its helpful lot read the Mithras stuff and realize where it came from. 

 

 

 

Great post. :thumbsup: I also thought there were some God-Emperor section parallels with Robert's Rebellion and maybe present day Westeros. For example, the Bloodstone Emperor is called a usurper, and bloodstone is usually green spotted with red. This reminds me of Robert spilling Rhaegar's rubies into the Green Fork of the Trident. And of course Robert himself is called Usurper literally dozens of times in the book, something he acknowledges himself.

 

In a similar vein to what you're saying about the geography parallels, there's a section from AGoT, Daenerys III that sticks out to me as a possilbe parallel for north of the Wall.

 

 

Those descriptions could probably be used to describe the Frostfangs which has icy waterfalls, and Hardhome whose caves are supposedly haunted by shrieking ghosts. Also, maybe a case could be made for connecting the three western forks of the Milkwater to the previous sentence.

 

 

Thanks J. Star!  I like this.  Mind you, from that description of Norvos, I almost see the Trident instead and Harrenhal.  I will have to go back and read it in context.  I don't have much of a head for retaining the geographical details, it' mostly the cultural ones I remember.

 

I will also reread the Bloodstone Emperor part.  That bit screamed at me Night's King, except that there is no Amethyst Empress in the Night's King tale.  Everything else is almost the same.  But I love that image of the rubies in the green fork, and the usurper parallel, so wonder if this is not also one of George's echoes that I talked about upthread.  Will reread for sure!

 

 

Agree with J Star here (we've talked about the usurper / BSE / Robert connections before). I think these kind of parallels are all over the place. I've started noticing entire parallel chapters, in fact. All three weddings in ADWD are parallels. 

[J. Stargaryen]

 

:cheers:  Exactly. It's all over the place - I mean, we have a sword called "Lightbringer" which supposedly returned light and love to the world. There cannot be any debate about this, but its helpful lot read the Mithras stuff and realize where it came from. 

 

 

Agree with J Star here (we've talked about the usurper / BSE / Robert connections before). I think these kind of parallels are all over the place. I've started noticing entire parallel chapters, in fact. All three weddings in ADWD are parallels. 

 

For something similar, read the first part of Jon I and the last part Dany V in AGoT. Jon's chapter takes place during the feast in Winterfell, and Dany's during the feast in Vaes Dothrak where Viserys gets himself crowned. The extent of the linguistic parallels is surprising.

[Lady Barbrey]

 

 

:bowdown: Lady Barbrey!!  :bowdown:

 

Bingo sauce! I had been pondering the overly-detailed descriptions of those emperors as well, but never put it together. I think you've definitely nailed though, all of your correlations make sense. And I've seen the same technique used in TWOIAF, so I have no doubt you've keyed in on Martin's attention. I am sufficiently impressed, dang impressed. 

 

The point, besides a clever nod and a wink, is to feed us clues, such as Tyrion Targaryen. This is without a doubt the most obscure proof of A + J = T (which is definitely true in  my opinion, I find the case to be at least as compelling as RLJ and cannot believe how willfully blind people are being about this). In a way, though, the obscurity of the evidence is more compelling. It's either an easter egg intended to tell us just what you claim, or it's nothing at all.  And I just ain't got time for the "that's just coincidence!" crowd at this point. I've spent too much time analyzing the text in great detail to even acknowledge that opinion as relevant. But whatever. Faclotron can preach his non-belief all he wants to. There will always be skeptics. 

 

The golden chamberpots definitely screamed Tywin, that was the one I was staring at, thinking, "there is something here." 

 

You might enjoy considering that the Wombof the World and the cold black pond at Winterfell are a match for each other. Cold black water, supposedly no bottom, and tied to the creation / origin story of their peoples. The Godswood and the crypts (and the First Keep above the crypts) are the most important parts of WF, and the Godswood is the first part of WF we see. And of course, at the very beginning of that scene, GRR< spends a lot of time talking about Ice and its dark glow, the blood on the blade, the ritualistic act of cleaning the blood in the pound - this is the first scene he chose to show us. Like the prologue north of the Wall, I believe this first chapter at an important locale is setting up all of the themes for the entire series pertaining to that subject. That's why I keep saying that ICE is the most important sword in the story, not Dawn. That's just my take. Ice and oathkeeper are just so central to so many people and events... anyway. I digress.

 

I still think she has something in Asshai. Totally agree on all the parallels, certainly many have noticed some part of that. Cersei even refers to the north as a "grey waste" in AGOT when Ned confronts her and Joff in the throne room (look out behind you, Ned!)  Shapechangers = skinchangers, thats easy enough to see. And I've been seeing the heart of shadow in Asshai as an opposite to the heart of winter for a long time. So we agree 1000% on all of that. 

 

Just don't sleep on the importance of Asshai - its prominently featured all through the series, especially in book one. 

 

 

I am so happy you liked it!  This is what I wanted to PM you about!  I was so excited last night and wrote this long message to you, knowing you'd be interested, only to have it rejected!

 

I agree on the importance of Asshai, but I think that's something that always disturbed me.  GRRM said a few times that he had never even envisioned it on a map, and somewhere he indicates the characters aren't going there.  But if the purpose of the story is to bring about what I think is the prime purpose, and put the seasons back on course, then somebody would have to go to Asshai because we've been given every indication that that's where the whole thing started (I thought this before ever reading any theories on it, just from the texts).  But if it is twinned with the North, it suggests that something can happen there instead, and in fact we know something probably did happen there in the past, but I wonder if in the last LN the hero didn't go far enough.  Went to the Children, but does someone have to get to the Heart of Winter?

[LmL]

 

Yup. Ice Spiders. But I question your use of red font for the starry lines.

 

Nothing new there!!   :lol:  The stars can be red or blue, as fits the scene. Originally I marked this passage up while discussing Quaithe and starry wisdom, so the stars whispering her have to do with Quaithe, hence the red text.  But when we read this for the double meaning about North of the Wall, then we are talking blue stars, sure. 

 

 

 

I feel bad I am not seeing the two moons with as much as you are seeing Ice Spiders. :cheers: I'll keep trying, LmL...

 

 

That's all I ask, good buddy. ;)  Like I said, the thing that makes me certain is all the eighth / ninth wanderer stuff, including the Lonely Songs of Laren Dorr. When I read that and realized he had the 7 / 8 / 9 wanderers idea ten years before he ever wrote ASOIAF, it chased away all doubts.   And the thing is, everything you are saying about the changeability of the moon and what it represents is 100% right in my opinion - I just see that Martin has split the two halves of the duality in terms of manifestation. Thematically though we are on the same page. 

 

Someone mentioned the NK not having a Nissa Nissa - well, he DID have a moon-pale maiden. NQ's skin is specifically called as pale as the moon. According to my two moons theory, the solar king should take a fire bride, and then an ice bride, as Rhaegar does (and Aegon, but the proof tying Visenya to ice and Rhaenys to fir takes a few paragraphs, which i will skip). Jon has Ygritte, and then Val. The Val thing is not as obvious, but there is a lot of implied wedding imagery when Jon meets her north of the Wall, as someone pointed out to me (was that you , J Star?) 

 

If AA = NK, which is one possibility I am keeping in mind, the NN was his fire moon and NQ his ice moon.   I really think the NQ - NK relationship to be an exact parallel to Mel and Stannis. Stannis gives his seed and soul to birth black shadows on a woman transformed by fire magic. The NK gave his seed and soul to a woman transformed by Ice, and birthed pale shadows. 

[J. Stargaryen]

Someone mentioned the NK not having a Nissa Nissa - well, he DID have a moon-pale maiden. NQ's skin is specifically called as pale as the moon. According to my two moons theory, the solar king should take a fire bride, and then an ice bride, as Rhaegar does (and Aegon, but the proof tying Visenya to ice and Rhaenys to fir takes a few paragraphs, which i will skip). Jon has Ygritte, and then Val. The Val thing is not as obvious, but there is a lot of implied wedding imagery when Jon meets her north of the Wall, as someone pointed out to me (was that you , J Star?) 

 

Nope! :)