Clarification on Mirri Maz Durr - Part 2

[Severiality]

If Dany's pleading to Drogo is why he invaded that's not a casual factor, it's the deciding factor. You dont casually get someone to invade a foreign land. Dany's request meant nothing to Drogo because the bargain was already struck with Viserys. Jorah reminds Viserys and Dany several times on how the Dothraki operate. The question was never if he would invade but when. The assassination attempt settles that matter.


After Dany's urging and Jorah's "timely comment"... Drogo tells Dany Rhaego doesnt need the throne and goes hunting.

After the assassination attempt... Drogo declares war.

It's plain as day. Thematically, Drogo needs a huge push to go to war, not just someone whispering in his ear.

As for your last sentence: duh. That's why he's married to Dany in the first place. To supply an army. Drogo knew about the invasion plans since day one.


Read any Dany chapter.

I have.

[OldGimletEye]

If Dany's pleading to Drogo is why he invaded that's not a casual factor, it's the deciding factor. You dont casually get someone to invade a foreign land. Dany's request meant nothing to Drogo because the bargain was already struck with Viserys. Jorah reminds Viserys and Dany several times on how the Dothraki operate. The question was never if he would invade but when. The assassination attempt settles that matter.

So long as Dany's pleadings were a factor, she bears some responsibility. I think it's a bit ridiculous to argue here that her pleadings were irrelevant.
 

After Dany's urging and Jorah's "timely comment"... Drogo tells Dany Rhaego doesnt need the throne and goes hunting.

After the assassination attempt... Drogo declares war.

Drogo decides to declare war after Jorah's comment.
 

It's plain as day. Thematically, Drogo needs a huge push to go to war, not just someone whispering in his ear.

And, again, the assassination attempt doesn't relieve Dany of responsibility, unless you are prepared to argue that it was the only and sole reason why Drogo went to war. Or, stated in another way, Dany's pleadings had no influence upon Drogo's decision.
 

As for your last sentence: duh. That's why he's married to Dany in the first place. To supply an army. Drogo knew about the invasion plans since day one.

An army, which in order to raise funds, will brutally murder, rape, and enslave innocent people. And yet Dany begs Drogo to invade Westeros for her, without thinking how Drogo will get the funds or simply not caring.

And let's not forget that Dany didn't say a word after Drogo's "I'm gonna rape, enslave, and murder, everything I see speech." It seems that would have been an opportune time for Dany to disassociate herself from Drogo's intended plans.

[Lady Sharya]

Where's a strawman smiley when you need one?
 
Read bent branch's post again and see that he/she was not denying that MMD was a victim; just that she was not one of Dany's. It was obviously in reference to the numerous posts that remove Mirri's agency, by claiming she was just a passive sap, who had no influence or control over the events, whatsoever. Hence:

I take offense to being accused of creating a strawman, and name you guilty of this instead. The post refered to did NOT claim Mirri was Dany's victim, nor was it coming from a Dany hater.

It's a long journey from claiming "she was just a passive sap" to claiming she had the power to influence all of the events necessary for the end results to occur.

The entire argument around Mirri being responsible continues upon her BEING A VICTIM. Motive and opportunity do not equal guilt. Has anyone here ever served on a jury trial? Mirri would not be found guilty of killing Drogo or Rhaego in court of law (US anyway). And, Mirri being mean and insensitive to Dany's pain after her and her people's involvement in the complete distruction of her life, is not grounds to burn her alive on a funeral pyle. I like Dany but this was NOT justice.

[idio]

A lot happened in between starting the ritual and the aftermath.
 
That she killed Rhaego or even tried to is negated by all the events preceding the event. She ordered Dany to go outside. Labour did not start after Qotho shoved her to the ground, Dothraki started to pelt her with stones and she was in huge emotional distress. Dothraki childbirth women refused to help her, calling her cursed, and eventually her handmaidens advized Jorah to bring her to Mirri, and he carried her in. Premeditation would mean that Mirri was able to mind control Drogo's bloodriders, Dothraki people, Dothraki healers, her handmaidens and Jorah. If she is that powerful to control all of the minds of the people outside of the tent, then how the hell did she not use that mind control power to save her village, her temple, her people and herself?
 
Mirri's attitude changed. She never admitted to "liking to kill Rhaego". She admitted to being glad he was dead. There is a difference between the two.

A lot of these counter arguments make the dubious assumption that Mirri was telling the tru when she implied that the spells were confined to the tent. Who is to say her power couldn't reach outside the tent?

[sweetsunray]

A lot of these counter arguments make the dubious assumption that Mirri was telling the tru when she implied that the spells were confined to the tent. Who is to say her power couldn't reach outside the tent?

 

Dany's vision of Rhaego being blasted out of existence, only once she got inside the tent.

 

I find the claim that Mirri had a power to mind control Qotho, and the other bloodriders, all the midwives and basically the whole Khalasar absurd. It would make her more powerful than the strongest greenseer of the past 100 years, and that at a time before dragons were born and magic wasn't even that strong yet. The pryomancers' spells weren't even that powerful yet after the dragons were born.

[Severiality]

A lot of these counter arguments make the dubious assumption that Mirri was telling the tru when she implied that the spells were confined to the tent. Who is to say her power couldn't reach outside the tent?

Why tell Dany to stay outside then?  If she planned to kill Rhaego in the womb, why make up a limitation on her spell?  It makes no sense, unless she was telling the truth.

 

I do find it funny that some folks are claiming the defense of MMD comes from the ultimate agenda of impugning Dany's character.  We have 4 books to do that quite successfully without this tidbit.
 

[idio]

Bound hand and foot, Mirri Maz Duur watched from the dust with disquiet in her black eyes. "It is not enough to kill a horse," she told Dany. "By itself, the blood is nothing. You do not have the words to make a spell, nor the wisdom to find them. Do you think bloodmagic is a game for children? You call me maegi as if it were a curse, but all it means is wise. You are a child, with a child's ignorance. Whatever you mean to do, it will not work. Loose me from these bonds and I will help you."

 
Yeah, she did not know what she was doing. Right.

Kind of feel like this is Thread Over? If this doesn't show the intent I don't know what will.

[idio]

Why tell Dany to stay outside then?  If she planned to kill Rhaego in the womb, why make up a limitation on her spell?  It makes no sense, unless she was telling the truth.
 
I do find it funny that some folks are claiming the defense of MMD comes from the ultimate agenda of impugning Dany's character.  We have 4 books to do that quite successfully without this tidbit.

Because she needed a pretense and a space to perform the spell. She doesn't just utter some words Harry Potter style and its done. It's a time consuming ritual.

And just to note: my argument in no way comes as an attack on Dany's actions. That's a separate discussion in my mind and immaterial to my point.

[idio]

Dany's vision of Rhaego being blasted out of existence, only once she got inside the tent.
 
I find the claim that Mirri had a power to mind control Qotho, and the other bloodriders, all the midwives and basically the whole Khalasar absurd. It would make her more powerful than the strongest greenseer of the past 100 years, and that at a time before dragons were born and magic wasn't even that strong yet. The pryomancers' spells weren't even that powerful yet after the dragons were born.

. I agree, that mind control idea is absurd.

[sweetsunray]

Kind of feel like this is Thread Over? If this doesn't show the intent I don't know what will.

 

Where does the bolded part imply intent? It only says that spilling blood is not enough to do magic. What was Mirri's spell? Obviously calling forth the spirits of the dead.

[sweetsunray]

Because she needed a pretense and a space to perform the spell. She doesn't just utter some words Harry Potter style and its done. It's a time consuming ritual.

And just to note: my argument in no way comes as an attack on Dany's actions. That's a separate discussion in my mind and immaterial to my point.

 

Well, it's a spell in Ashai tongue, so Dany wouldn't understand it anyhow. Dany was completely prepared and actually adament about staying and watching it all.

[sweetsunray]

. I agree, that mind control idea is absurd.

 

Well, if she didn't mind control them, she's not the one who caused Dany's labor, not the one who prevented others from helping Dany in labor, and not the one who carried her inside.

 

And since the image of Rhaego being blasted out of existence is so specifically tied to Dany being inside the tent, Rhaego's lifeforce could not be taken but inside the tent. We also have a description of Dany's perception from the outside as well as inside the tent. Two completely different worlds almost - day and night. It wasn't dark outside. The shadows only danced inside the tent.

[Severiality]

Kind of feel like this is Thread Over? If this doesn't show the intent I don't know what will.

How does that show intent?  She says Dany is naive for believing her rudimentary ritual will work.  Furthermore, she doesn't even know what Dany is trying to do.  I'd assume MMD thinks she's trying to bring back Drogo, but I don't know.

 

Because she needed a pretense and a space to perform the spell. She doesn't just utter some words Harry Potter style and its done. It's a time consuming ritual.

And just to note: my argument in no way comes as an attack on Dany's actions. That's a separate discussion in my mind and immaterial to my point.

So she confines Dany outside the tent why? Why can't Dany stay in the tent?  Why tell Dany to not stay in the tent?  It makes no sense to lie.  It makes no sense to warn Dany to stay outside if there is no point to her staying outside.  She can say, "I need space in this tent," without warning Dany to not come in under any circumstances.

 

First rule of deceiving someone, don't tell extra, unnecessary lies. 

[Lady Barbrey]

I agree with sweetsunray and others. Lady Sharya's point is particularly well-taken that she would never be convicted in a court of law for the murder of Rhaego.

But there is one confusion I still have. What exactly did MMD hope to accomplish with the stallion and Drogo? Never mind Rhaego, she didn't see that coming I'm convinced. But did she EVER believe she could heal Drogo, bring him back to life for real with just the stallion?

She did have an out, she does say beforehand it might not work, but afterwards she says it would take a human life and Dany should have known it. Actually, Mirri, YOU should have known it, not Dany, so what was all that rigmarole with the stallion?

[Lady Sharya]

I agree with sweetsunray and others. Lady Sharya's point is particularly well-taken that she would never be convicted in a court of law for the murder of Rhaego.
But there is one confusion I still have. What exactly did MMD hope to accomplish with the stallion and Drogo? Never mind Rhaego, she didn't see that coming I'm convinced. But did she EVER believe she could heal Drogo, bring him back to life for real with just the stallion?
She did have an out, she does say beforehand it might not work, but afterwards she says it would take a human life and Dany should have known it. Actually, Mirri, YOU should have known it, not Dany, so what was all that rigmarole with the stallion?

Mirri tells Dany that a sacrifice must be made. Mirri makes it clear enough to Dany for her to ask if the cost would her own life. When Mirri says, "No, not your's" Dany immediately orders her to perform the magic knowing it will cost a life. It is only after this that the horse is even mentioned, so Dany knows the cost isn't the horse. Mirri says she needs the horse for blood.

Idk exactly what state Mirri expected Drogo to be in, but she did tell Dany that "death would be cleaner."

[Lady Barbrey]

Mirri tells Dany that a sacrifice must be made. Mirri makes it clear enough to Dany for her to ask if the cost would her own life. When Mirri says, "No, not your's" Dany immediately orders her to perform the magic knowing it will cost a life. It is only after this that the horse is even mentioned, so Dany knows the cost isn't the horse. Mirri says she needs the horse for blood.
Idk exactly what state Mirri expected Drogo to be in, but she did tell Dany that "death would be cleaner."

How could Dany know it would cost a human life if Mirri didn't? I'm not asking about what Dany knew or didn't, just what Mirri knew or didn't regarding the stallion and Drogo. Mirri is in the tent with Drogo and the stallion. She forbids anyone else to come in. What is she hoping to accomplish without a human sacrifice?
Exactly what did happen? Zombie Drogo?

[bent branch]

How could Dany know it would cost a human life if Mirri didn't? I'm not asking about what Dany knew or didn't, just what Mirri knew or didn't regarding the stallion and Drogo. Mirri is in the tent with Drogo and the stallion. She forbids anyone else to come in. What is she hoping to accomplish without a human sacrifice?
Exactly what did happen? Zombie Drogo?

 

The questions you're asking are exactly the reason I think Mirri always intended the sacrifice to be Rhaego.

[Lady Barbrey]

The questions you're asking are exactly the reason I think Mirri always intended the sacrifice to be Rhaego.

That's what I thought. This is where the whole thing gets misleading and confusing. I don't believe she intended Rhaego's sacrifice, but I don't blame you for thinking she did because this part doesnt't really make sense in any interpretation.

[bent branch]

That's what I thought. This is where the whole thing gets misleading and confusing. I don't believe she intended Rhaego's sacrifice, but I don't blame you for thinking she did because this part doesnt't really make sense in any interpretation.

 

Well, of course I disagree about if Rhaego was the intended sacrifice. But the thing that really burns my biscuits is that people who accuse Dany of knowing what would be required, while at the same time saying Mirri didn't know what would be required. It is making an argument based on the fact they don't like Dany.

[Lady Barbrey]

Well, of course I disagree about if Rhaego was the intended sacrifice. But the thing that really burns my biscuits is that people who accuse Dany of knowing what would be required, while at the same time saying Mirri didn't know what would be required. It is making an argument based on the fact they don't like Dany.

Perhaps for some. I do like Dany. She's a nice girl with good intentions but they are always at war with the dragon queen part of her that's not quite human. In a battle with the Others, her dragons will be indispensible. It was imperative they be born. Somebody had to be burned for them, and Mirri was there after failing to restore Drogo to her. The dragon queen needs no reason or rationale to burn her; human Dany does and so she blamed her.

Sometimes she has to lose her humanity to fulfill her destiny and 'she can't look back' or she will be 'undone' if she sees herself clearly. But that's the big lesson at the HotU. There's that darkness lurching and shuffling behind her - that's her dragon self - that she will need to face eyes wide open. She can't do that yet but she's getting there.