Clarification on Mirri Maz Durr - Part 2

[sweetsunray]

Hey guys, some great analysis here, not surprising considering the quality of posters on this thread. I am in agreement that Danny knew what the price was going to be, regardless of what she's trying to tell herself, as it seems some people around here are doing as well. :rolleyes:

One question I have, that's sort of throwing me off on this whole thing. If we consider the hypothetical that everything went as was planned and nobody enters the tent, what would the results have been? If this spell required a human sacrifice, what was Mirri's original intentions if there was not originally someone in the tent to sacrifice?

I realize that there was also the dragon eggs to consider, but I'm of the understanding Mirri was not aware of their presence at the time.

I'm not sure if this was addressed in the previous thread, or if I just missed something obvious, but was curious to your thoughts on this matter.

 

A very very interesting question. We know she commands the spirit and strength of the horse to go into Drogo. The horse's blood is pooled into the bath's water where Drogo lies. She then orders Dany out when she conjures the dead spirits/shadows from the fire. Before she's brought in Dany sees a great wolf and a man wraithing in flames.

 

Let's for a moment discount the presence of the dragons eggs and what happens to Rhaego as it is described in Dany's next POV chapter.

 

The blood of the horse does not seem enough. The dead spirits have something to do with it. I wonder whether the blood is used as amaterial vessel to bind a dead spirit to the blood. But while that may bind a dead spirit to the blood, the blood is physically outside of Drogo's body. By ordering the spirit of the horse to go into Drogo, and with the blood having the memory of the horse's spirit as well as close in proximity we would get the following

 

• Horse spirit inside Drogo
• Blood near and retaining the memory of the spirit it belongs to (the horse inside Drogo)
• A dead spirit wishing to bind with the blood.

 

I think the intent is to then bind the blood and dead spirit to Drogo to heal him physically. But he'd be inhabitated mentally by some old dead spirit + horse spirit. Neither would restore Drogo mentally to the man as he was before, which was what Mirri said - death would be cleaner. 

 

And here the human sacrifice comes into play. If a spirit of the dead is bound back to a living body, then basically that spirit is brought back to life, and another dead person must replace the spirit stolen from the realm of the dead. It then doesn't matter whether someone is brought into the tent or not. Anybody who dies counts as a death replacing an undead spirit. And while Dany did not think ahead enough to realize the Dothraki would become violent, Mirri would have known they would.

 

Anyway, I think it's a form of necromancy, binding spirit to blood and a phsyical body. But the one necromanced spirit must be replaced with the other.

[Tucu]

Ok, but what was the reason in establishing a boundry that nobody was to enter if the spell was going to effect people outside the tent anyway? Are you saying that just some random person outside was going to be sacrificed? And if so, how could Mirri know that it wouldn't be Danny herself?

I don't know how the boundaries work. I can think of 4 possibilities for the payment:

-Mirri assumed that the dothraki will fight and kill someone. That would count as a payment. She lied about Dany being safe. If no one was killed she would just declare the ritual a failure.

-the payment was to be taken by the spirits outside the tent randomly and Mirri lied about Dany being excluded.

-the payment was to be taken by the spirits outside the tent randomly but Dany was protected by the ritual.

-Mirri was the intended payment, committing suicide to leave Drogo a vegetable and Dany with no way to revert it.

[sweetsunray]

I don't know how the boundaries work. I can think of 3 possibilities for the payment:

-the payment was to be taken by the spirits outside the tent randomly and Mirri lied about Dany being excluded.

-the payment was to be taken by the spirits outside the tent randomly but Dany was protected by the ritual.

-Mirri was the intended payment, committing suicide to leave Drogo a vegetable and Dany with no way to revert it.

 

Mirri might indeed have intended to sacrifice her own life as payment for the spirit exchange.

 

As for Mirri intending to leave Drogo a vegetable... Mirri said from the start that death would be cleaner. She never made any mental restoration promises at all. And I doubt it is possible without a vast amount of magic (like the one locked into the wall). ETA: especially when Mirri believed magic to have been kindof weak and waning for a long while already.

[Tucu]

 

Mirri might indeed have intended to sacrifice her own life as payment for the spirit exchange.

 

As for Mirri intending to leave Drogo a vegetable... Mirri said from the start that death would be cleaner. She never made any mental restoration promises at all. And I doubt it is possible without a vast amount of magic (like the one locked into the wall).

Yes, that is the fouth (third before edit) option I mentioned.

[sweetsunray]

Yes, that is the fouth (third before edit) option I mentioned.

 

I know, that's what I agree with as a possible intended payment by Mirri.

[the trees have eyes]

@Severiality re post 73.

 

It Is very different to Robert being blamed for the deaths of Rhaenys and Aegon.  Robert had nothing to do with it as I'm sure you well know.  He doesn't need to deny it because he's not a suspect: Tywin is known to be behind it.  No one saw Robert leading the children off into the Red Keep for a bedtime story only to have to explain how they unaccountably died horribly in his care.

 

@ Sweetsunray re post 74.  Some big issues with your portrayal of what Dany knew or thought and how she behaved towards Mirri afterwards and with your attempt to explain Mirri antagonising Dany as, well what, reasonable, understandable? but its late so I'll come back to this tomorrow .  One simple denial from Mirri was what I asked for, but we know she doesn't give that, just as she doesn't make clear the price beforehand.  You really have to wonder why but you're bending over backwards to avoid looking at that clearly. 

[Hodor the Articulate]

All of these arguments rely on two factors that I would like to address rather than reading you cut & pastes replies:
1. The strawman that either sweetsunray@ or I have ever said that Dany or Mirri knew or accepted that the price to pay for Drogo's life was Dany's baby. I do not believe either of them even anticipated Rhaego's death. Mirri had nothing to do with Dany's premature labor or her being carried into the tent. Dany even thinks later that Jorah was responsible...until her anger got the better of her and she chose to blame Mirri.

2. You argument hinges upon ignoring the exchange between Dany and Mirri on what the price would be (Dany's question & Mirri's answer) while our argument includes the FULL text, in context of the events taking place.

It's your choice to dismiss text you believe to be irrelevant because it contradicts your view. But in doing so, your view becomes an inaccurate representation of the story.

1. Which was the thing I was originally arguing against, here. Mirri is presented as a competent and experienced mage. She has done bloodmagic before, and has explicitly stated that she knows that Dany is not the sacrifice. At no point is it ever implied that she is fuzzy on the details of the spell, and at no point does she claim to be. In fact, here is a quote posted by JonCon, upthread, that shows Mirri is well versed in the spell:

 

Bound hand and foot, Mirri Maz Duur watched from the dust with disquiet in her black eyes. "It is not enough to kill a horse," she told Dany. "By itself, the blood is nothing. You do not have the words to make a spell, nor the wisdom to find them. Do you think bloodmagic is a game for children? You call me maegi as if it were a curse, but all it means is wise. You are a child, with a child's ignorance. Whatever you mean to do, it will not work. Loose me from these bonds and I will help you."

 

I find it difficult to believe that this woman did not know what the price was. It makes no difference, however, to fact that she neglected to inform Dany of what the price is (or even may be).

 

2. For the last time, once the horse got involved (and nothing was killed, at that moment), the implication was that the horse, alone, was the sacrifice. Dany's previous consent was made without full knowledge of what the spell entailed, so, with this new info (about the horse), her consent is now for the horse to be the sacrifice.

 

So, to recep: Dany consents to *whatever* without being fully informed -> the horse is implied to be the sacrifice -> Dany thinks just the horse is the sacrifice -> Dany's consent is now for the horse to be sacrificed.

 

If at any point, Mirri had told Dany that her baby might be killed, Dany would have retracted her consent (you agree on this, surely?).

 

Y'know, maybe I'm not making myself clear enough, but I honestly don't know how many other ways I can explain this.

 

And please stop putting words in mouth. You do this every time you reply to me, and I do not want to waste time repeating what I actually said. Nothing I omitted changes or contradicts my argument. As I have argued, over and over again, the only stuff I took out, was things that made no difference to my point, whether they were there or not.

 

[Severiality]

1. Which was the thing I was originally arguing against, here. Mirri is presented as a competent and experienced mage. She has done bloodmagic before, and has explicitly stated that she knows that Dany is not the sacrifice. At no point is it ever implied that she is fuzzy on the details of the spell, and at no point does she claim to be. In fact, here is a quote posted by JonCon, upthread, that shows Mirri is well versed in the spell:

 

Bound hand and foot, Mirri Maz Duur watched from the dust with disquiet in her black eyes. "It is not enough to kill a horse," she told Dany. "By itself, the blood is nothing. You do not have the words to make a spell, nor the wisdom to find them. Do you think bloodmagic is a game for children? You call me maegi as if it were a curse, but all it means is wise. You are a child, with a child's ignorance. Whatever you mean to do, it will not work. Loose me from these bonds and I will help you."

 

I find it difficult to believe that this woman did not know what the price was. It makes no difference, however, to fact that she neglected to inform Dany of what the price is (or even may be).

 

2. For the last time, once the horse got involved (and nothing was killed, at that moment), the implication was that the horse, alone, was the sacrifice. Dany's previous consent was made without full knowledge of what the spell entailed, so, with this new info (about the horse), her consent is now for the horse to be the sacrifice.

 

So, to recep: Dany consents to *whatever* without being fully informed -> the horse is implied to be the sacrifice -> Dany thinks just the horse is the sacrifice -> Dany's consent is now for the horse to be sacrificed.

 

If at any point, Mirri had told Dany that her baby might be killed, Dany would have retracted her consent (you agree on this, surely?).

 

Y'know, maybe I'm not making myself clear enough, but I honestly don't know how many other ways I can explain this.

 

And please stop putting words in mouth. You do this every time you reply to me, and I do not want to waste time repeating what I actually said. Nothing I omitted changes or contradicts my argument. As I have argued, over and over again, the only stuff I took out, was things that made no difference to my point, whether they were there or not.

 

Dany gave consent thinking it was a random human life.  The horse being used for blood is irrelevant.

 

The fact of the matter is that Dany said do it without wondering if it would be Jorah or her baby or anybody else.  That makes this her responsibility.  She didn't comprehend the consequences of her actions.  MMD asked for Dany's consent, told her a life is necessary.  Dany was obviously fine with that anybody not being her, until after the fact.  She had buyer's remorse.  It's still her fault.

 

however, to fact that she neglected to inform Dany of what the price is (or even may be).

 

Wrong. Dany thought it was a human life that wasn't hers, and agreed.  That was the price, and Dany said okay.  Dany not understanding "a life" could be anyone's, including her child, is not MMD's fault.  Does the slave need to triple check every order with her master?  "I know you just said do it, Khaleesi, but someone's gonna have to die here.  Do you wanna take a second to fully understand what you're asking for?  Are you sure you're okay with this?"  That's utterly ridiculous.

 

Dany's previous consent was made without full knowledge of what the spell entailed, so, with this new info (about the horse), her consent is now for the horse to be the sacrifice.

 

Again, wrong.  Her consent was for "a life."  Period.  You can't change consent after the fact.  That makes the consent meaningless.

[Hodor the Articulate]

I repeat: Had Mirri said "oh btw, this horse is just for lulz. Your baby is the actual sacrifice", before the thing started, I'm 100% certain Dany would have retracted her consent. 
 

She may have consented before, but do you really think she would wanted to go through with it, had Mirri told her, her baby would have to (or even may) die? There was plenty of time to inform Dany of all the risks involved.

 

Let me frame this another way: if you were about to perform a spell for someone, and it involved the possible death of that person's baby, wouldn't you inform that person of said risk? Wouldn't you naturally assume that, that person might not want to do the spell, if it meant their child might be harmed? Is it not, then, strange that Mirri does not do tell Dany that the sacrifice might include her loved ones? When answering, keep in mind that Mirri is not a real person. Her actions are not coincidental, they imply something.

[Darkstream]

I repeat: Had Mirri said "oh btw, this horse is just for lulz. Your baby is the actual sacrifice", before the thing started, I'm 100% certain Dany would have retracted her consent. 
 
She may have consented before, but do you really think she would wanted to go through with it, had Mirri told her, her baby would have to (or even may) die? There was plenty of time to inform Dany of all the risks involved.
 
Let me frame this another way: if you were about to perform a spell for someone, and it involved the possible death of that person's baby, wouldn't you inform that person of said risk? Wouldn't you naturally assume that, that person might not want to do the spell, if it meant their child might be harmed? Is it not, then, strange that Mirri does not do tell Dany that the sacrifice might include her loved ones? When answering, keep in mind that Mirri is not a real person. Her actions are not coincidental, they imply something.

So even though Mirri(Danny's slave) did warn her and tried to dissuade her against these actions, to which Danny clearly ignored and didn't care to hear, she was suppose to plead and beg Danny(Mirri's master and captor) to head her warnings? Sounds pretty ridiculous to me. :dunno:

[sweetsunray]

@ Sweetsunray re post 74.  Some big issues with your portrayal of what Dany knew or thought and how she behaved towards Mirri afterwards and with your attempt to explain Mirri antagonising Dany as, well what, reasonable, understandable? but its late so I'll come back to this tomorrow .  One simple denial from Mirri was what I asked for, but we know she doesn't give that, just as she doesn't make clear the price beforehand.  You really have to wonder why but you're bending over backwards to avoid looking at that clearly. 

 

Wow, posting a summary of the convo and thoughts from the moment she considers Jorah the one who killed her baby to the moment she accused Mirri of murdering her child inside her is bending over backwards? Then why did GRRM even write two-three pages from one moment to the other. It wasn't Mirri antagonizing Dany. Dany became antagonistic without Mirri trying. 

 

The price was very clear to Dany on the moment of consent - a human life, but not her own. When she ordered Mirri to do it, Dany basically told Mirri - kill human life to save Drogo's life. And in that general sense, Mirri of course cannot deny she murdered anyone, or that she "knew". Of course Mirri "knew" death would pay for life, and that death would be cleaner. She told Dany this before Dany gave her consent. And did Rhaego end up being blasted out of existence because of the ritual? Yup. So, Mirri can't deny that fact either. In certain ways, Dany's accusations are non-sensical.

 

Dany: "You knew the price." Mirri: yup, I knew death would be the price. I effing told you.

Dany: "You murdered the baby in my womb." Mirri: the dragon-lizard baby ended up being used by the magic that I conjured up. Little point in denying that.

 

Absence of denial =/= confession to "I tricked you into giving me the OK to start a ritual where I targeted Rhaego to be killed by magic".

 

Now, I will admit that I take the "not-guilty position until proven guilty", and the main reason for this is because there simply is no evidence at all for Mirri to have gone out of her way to trick Dany into agreeing to let her use magic and that Mirri targeted Rhaego with that magic. Even if Mirri in her heart hoped Rhaego would end up being the death paying for life, there is no evidence that Mirri could have accomplished this, once she sent Dany outside of the tent. Once Dany was sent outside, Mirri left it it in the hands of fate. She is not a skinchanger, let alone more powerful than BR or Varamyr. We certainly don't see Dothraki trying to claw their eyes out and order Mirri to stay out of their brain. Hence, Mirri had no influence over the actions and choices and behaviour of the whole Khalasar outside of the tent. The events that led Dany to be carried inside the tent were out of her control. Even if Mirri actually had confessed, the confession that many imagine Mirri to have made would be a lie. And I have seen no evidence either that Mirri is a liar.

[sweetsunray]

1. Which was the thing I was originally arguing against, here. Mirri is presented as a competent and experienced mage. She has done bloodmagic before, and has explicitly stated that she knows that Dany is not the sacrifice. At no point is it ever implied that she is fuzzy on the details of the spell, and at no point does she claim to be. In fact, here is a quote posted by JonCon, upthread, that shows Mirri is well versed in the spell:

 

Bound hand and foot, Mirri Maz Duur watched from the dust with disquiet in her black eyes. "It is not enough to kill a horse," she told Dany. "By itself, the blood is nothing. You do not have the words to make a spell, nor the wisdom to find them. Do you think bloodmagic is a game for children? You call me maegi as if it were a curse, but all it means is wise. You are a child, with a child's ignorance. Whatever you mean to do, it will not work. Loose me from these bonds and I will help you."

 

I find it difficult to believe that this woman did not know what the price was. It makes no difference, however, to fact that she neglected to inform Dany of what the price is (or even may be).

 

Well, it should be obvious that "the blood is nothing". That it requires a "spell". The blood is an ingredient, but not enough by itself. Mirri never pretended the blood to be enough, since she did not hide to Dany that there would be a whole lot of singing and spirit conjuring going on once she sent Dany out of the tent.

 

Mirri always knew a human life was the price, and Dany knew it too the moment she gave consent. She never neglected to inform Dany about this, because it was clear to Dany that it was a human life the moment she gave the order and her consent.

[sweetsunray]

I was just thinking of an anology to another case of blood/fire magic, where the maegi actually claims she killed several people with her magic. Mel claims that the ritual of throwing leeches with Edric Storm's blood into the flames is the reason why Balon, Robb Stark and Joffrey meet their doom. Is there anyone who actually believes that Mel murdered Balon, Robb and Joffrey with her magic? Most people consider Mel's claim ridiculous. It would make her a goddess if she were to magically influence that many people's free will and circumstances that led to their death. Instead the consensus seems to be that Mel saw their death in the flames, and she just did the leech ritual in order to pretend it was her magic.

[Hodor the Articulate]

So even though Mirri(Danny's slave) did warn her and tried to dissuade her against these actions, to which Danny clearly ignored and didn't care to hear, she was suppose to plead and beg Danny(Mirri's master and captor) to head her warnings? Sounds pretty ridiculous to me. :dunno:

"But it is hard, lady, and dark. Some would say that death is cleaner. I learned the way in Asshai, and paid dear for the lesson" is extremely vague, and in no way properly informing Dany of what she risks with the spell. Can you tell, that you'll be getting a surprise abortion by that warning, or that it would only succeed in making your husband into a vegetable?

 

Frankly, I don't see what Mirri being a slave has to do with it. Remember, Dany was the one doing begging, and Mirri had the power to revive her husband. If Mirri truly had no ulterior motive in helping Dany, she would have told her about the spell, in plainer terms.

[Hodor the Articulate]

I highlighted a quote that shows that Dany's beliefs about the price vary several times in different situations, and that she attempts to take action against continuation of the ritual right after the Dothraki physically start to target her. And that she afterwards is very selective about what she believed the price to be in order to villify Mirri enough in her mind in order to scapegoat Mirri for it all. What I meant to imply is that Dany is an unreliable narrator. This is emphasised by her thought "if I look back I'm lost".

And I have already argued why I disagree with your interpretation, and your insistence that there are contradictions in Dany's thoughts, so I won't repeat them here.
 
"If I look back I am lost" is not about her blanking out past thoughts, or distorting memories. Or else passages like "It was [Doreah's] fate, Khaleesi,” said Aggo. If I look back I am lost. “It was a cruel fate,” Dany said, “yet not so cruel as Mago’s will be" would not make sense. I read it as Dany, thinking how foolish and naive she used to be, believing the only way forward is everything changing. Hence why, at the end of ADWD, a book all about identity, she she says "to go forward, I must go back" - she finally realises she must merge some of the old with the new; to be a dragon and a mother, etc.

Whatever other moral implications you took out of it is your own interpretation. 
 
And "oh it was a joke"... I find that one of the poorest answers in defense of poor or insulting argumentation. What's that supposed to mean? "Don't take my arguments seriously, they're only meant as a joke."? Or does it mean "I attempt to paint posters as Dany-hater as a joke"? Targeting a poster and then saying "it was only a joke" is to me an attempt to make someone who confronts you with your words as silly... "Oh, she doesn't even get a joke." It's an attempt to get a free pass on writing and claiming whatever you wish about another poster and without that poster having the right to confront you about it.   I personally find "it was only a joke" a saying that leaves me with a foul aftertaste. Either own your words, or don't write them at all. Don't subvert it as another attempt to disparage my intelligence.

Lol, ok. Your interpretation carried a certain familiar slant, I called you out on it in a fun way. I gave serious arguments in very next paragraph, anyway.

The main point is that Dany believes the price to include human life, several minutes after the horse was sacrificed, just as much as she believed it to mean human life before she gave Mirri the go-ahead and before any horse was brought inside. This is something you have failed to address at all. And that she bans the memory of that belief out of her mind, when she much much later confronts Mirri with, "I believed the price was only the horse." Your argument was about how Mirri deceived her and Dany solely believed it to be the horse. But both before the horse and after there are two explicit passages where she clearly believes it to be human sacrifice. You try to dismiss and tiptoe around both before- and after- horse passages so you can be as conveniently selective about Dany's beliefs as she is herself.

I have addressed this SEVERAL times. See my latest attempt, in my reply to Lady Sharya, here (point #2).
 
I have also addressed these supposed inconsistencies in Dany's memory, here. More on this, below.

Sure, you can interprete it as setting the mood of despair, of chaos... but to me the complete scene with bloodriders shouting and threatening and shoving and stoning makes for chaos. The passage mostly serves to show us Dany's response to all of this and how she interpretes it in relation to the blood magic ritual. Her response reveals she considers the consequences of her initial choice too late and wishes to undo it when she can't anymore (and yes this is a recurring theme in Dany's arc), and that she regards the chaos and killing outside as caused by magic.
 
Of course, Dany's beliefs during the events do not suddenly make it a fact that the Dothraki anger and aggression is magically induced. They're not. Their aggression and revulsion against magic would have occurred always. They showed their hatred and revulsion and willingness to kill people they believe to dabble with magic from the get go at Mirri's village. This is basically the challenge with characters as unreliable narrators written in 3rd person - we get a chance to have an objective description events as well as how the POV character processes those events. We can step into the mind of the POV to understand the character, but we should never forget the facts about the events when doing that. But when we're only talking about Dany's beliefs on the events, this passage shows that Dany believed human lives could be part of the price, even after the horse was killed. And your quote about Dany including the bloodriders when she says to Mirri how it was paid and paid and paid so quickly after her selective memory of "But I believed the horse was the sacrifice," links back to that passage and how at the time she believed it to be a sacrifice for Drogo.

Addressed this already, too. “You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse.” Past tense in both sentences, and reference to a past event (MMD warning her in the tent), point to "I thought you meant the horse" being a reference to what she had thought in the tent. When she lists the horse, her baby, and the dothraki ("paid and paid and paid"), she is talking about what she thought at present. And, looking at the events, she only started associating the dothraki with "the price", AFTER she saw them die, AFTER the spell started, AFTER she leaves the tent. To sum up Dany's thoughts:
 
In the tent, during the "consultation"-> horse is sacrifice.
Outside the tent, when she sees everybody dying -> horse AND Quaro, Qutho, etc, are the sacrifice.
After her baby dies -> horse, baby, and dothraki are the sacrifice.
 
Thus, no selective memory.

It is inconsistent. Because she did believe it to be human life, before and after the horse was brought in. The complete sequence of beliefs is
1) Only death can pay for life -> she thought it was to be human sacrifice.
2) Dany says "Do it".
3) The horse is brought in and killed -> she hopes/thinks the horse will be the sole sacrifice
4) Dany goes outside and the Dothraki become murderous -> she thinks the resulting and threatening carnage will be the sacrifice
 
Dany has 3 variating beliefs about the sacrifice, and when she decides to go the "I feel cheated" route, she picks only one of those 3, not acknowledging the other 2. And this is not just "trimming the fat", because Mirri right after confronts her with her "selective memory" and her mental tricks to lie to herself, and when she probes her own mind about it, Dany purposefully blocks the reflective process with "If I look back I'm lost". And then she does include the people who died and who she believed -at the time- to be the price, but without acknowleding even for herself her own culpability in it. To just only select the one sentence and take it to be GRRM only "trimming the fat" when GRRM has Mirri confront Dany by pointing out that she told herself a lie (exactly what we're discussing here), and that Dany's mental response to this is consciously blocking any self-reflection is some of the worst contextual reading performed. This is the first event and first time we ever see this self-blocking thought of Dany that reoccurs over and over ever after, but you just dismiss it as "trimming the fat". :rolleyes:

You're rather hung up on this "human life" thing, even though Dany's belief that she would be the sacrifice, is no indication that she thought the sacrifice was to be exclusively human, or that she thought anything at all. I'm not sure what its even supposed to be proof of - that Dany willingly agreed to sacrifice her son?

I talked about "If I look back I am lost" and how it's got nothing to do with selective memory (see above). When Mirri accuses her of knowing the price, Dany questions herself (as she always does). She thinks "had she [known]?" The implication, is "no", because she then thinks "If I look back I am lost" (again, my interpretation of this is above). She realises she was a fool to have once thought it was just a horse, to have not known how high the price was.

 

Oh, and thanks for bringing up "That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price". That line implies both, that Mirri believed Dany had convinced herself that just a horse was needed, and that she intended to kill a person/people for the spell. Yet Mirri never bothers to correct Dany...which goes back to my original point, that she was intentionally trying to mislead Dany into thinking it was just a horse.
 

My interpretation of Mirri's guilt is not based on Dany's beliefs. They are based on the several events and descriptions of it, Mirri not being established as a skinchanger, let alone more powerful than Varamyr or Bloodraven, and thus the logical assumption that all the people involved in the events were free and at mental liberty to make their own choices. My interpretation on Dany's beliefs and self-delusion are based on how we get to be a witness to her self-censuring mental process to block any reflection on her own choices, actions and beliefs when it comes to her personal responsibility in this, and how when Mirri challenges her to do this, her first impulse is to become antagonistic to Mirri.
 
Euhm see above... completely ignoring the rest of the passage about Dany's claim that she believed the horse to be the sole sacrifice, including a conscious thought that shows Dany blocks any attempt to reflect on her own choices, beliefs and actions and thus culpability, in order to dismiss it as "GRRM trimming the fat".

My interpretation isn't based on Dany's beliefs, either, but somehow, that is what the discussion turned into.  :dunno:  My original point was that it was highly suspicious that Mirri neglected to inform Dany that her son - or anyone - would die from the spell. What Dany did or did not believe is basically irrelevant.

[Hodor the Articulate]

Wow, how anyone can say the moment where Dany decides to order Mirri to perform the ritual is irrelevant is beyond my comprehension. She said to Mirri "Do it!" while believing the price to be human sacrifice. That can never be irrelevant.

It was irrelevant to the point I was trying to make - that it seemed like the horse was the sacrifice, at the time, since Mirri never says otherwise. Mirri lied by omission.

The lack of evidence that Mirri was certain it would be Rhaego. And just plain logic - the ritual can be performed on the request of non-pregnant women and men. That would make it a tad difficult for unborn children to be the price. Hence the price/sacrifice (whose life) will vary, depending the individual. Mirri only showed certainty it wouldn't be the life of the one making the request.

And yet, Mirri accuses Dany of knowing the price all along. How was Dany to know the price, when she didn't? That doesn't make sense. Still, the question of why she didn't specify the risks - even just the possible risks - remain.

Mirri said "only death can pay for life" and Dany had no comprehension disabilities to mean it meant a human life, because her first thought was "My life?". There was no misunderstanding between Mirri and Dany about death meaning human life.

Covered this. Dany offering herself up does not imply she thought the sacrifice was exclusively human. She could have plausibly been so relieved that she thought nothi

And you dare to ask me why you're told to be selective? You dismiss very relevant passages about Dany's various beliefs "because they were irrelevant to your point". How VERY convenient.

Do I dare to? :lol: What am I, a lowly castle servant, daring to challenge the high lord's unquestionable word? I explained why it was irrelevant. I have been explaining all this time. I beg of you O lady, don't make me explain again.

 

Yes, it implies she is going to kill the horse. More, Dany and us see her kill the horse, and use the blood to prepare Drogo for the actual ritual. She then also explains that Dany must go outside and not enter the tent when she starts to sing and death will dance in the tent that night. It should be very obvious that the horse is "prep" not the ritual, or even the life, since there otherwise would be no reason for Mirri to warn Dany against entering the the tent.

Oh, so you agree it implies that. Why did you feel the need to change what I wrote then?

 

Can you put it another way? I really don't see the obvious connection, here, between the not going into the tent, and the horse not being the sacrifice. I mean, she started singing "Strength of the mount, go into the rider..." after she killed the horse, so it sure seemed like she had already began casting the spell, while everyone was still in the tent.

[Severiality]

I repeat: Had Mirri said "oh btw, this horse is just for lulz. Your baby is the actual sacrifice", before the thing started, I'm 100% certain Dany would have retracted her consent. 
 

She may have consented before, but do you really think she would wanted to go through with it, had Mirri told her, her baby would have to (or even may) die? There was plenty of time to inform Dany of all the risks involved.

 

Let me frame this another way: if you were about to perform a spell for someone, and it involved the possible death of that person's baby, wouldn't you inform that person of said risk? Wouldn't you naturally assume that, that person might not want to do the spell, if it meant their child might be harmed? Is it not, then, strange that Mirri does not do tell Dany that the sacrifice might include her loved ones? When answering, keep in mind that Mirri is not a real person. Her actions are not coincidental, they imply something.

Dany didn't think about it and/or care.  It's not MMD's job to define words for Dany.  "A life," could mean anyone's life, a child knows that.  Also, Dany doesn't consider the sacrifice may be her loved ones, but she believes it must be her (at first?)  Why?

[sweetsunray]

Well, we have to agree that we completely disagree. Your insistence to exlude certain information, beliefs, words, thought processes and events to argue that being selective is the way to go is something I will never agree to. You made up your mind that Mirri is guilty and Dany a complete innocent who was tricked, no matter how illogical it is.

 

Apparently Dany doesn't consider herself to be a human life. Or considers herself the sole human life. You argue that if Dany can rule herself out as being the price then she suddenly will conclude "Oh, so no human life." And then we still have Dany believing the price being human lives once outside the tent, after the horse was killed.

 

You may have repeated ad nauseum the same BS arguments, they never ever dealt with the arguments we made at all. But hey, if you want to pick one sentence, completely ignore the context and call it "GRRM trimming down the fat" and tell us that we are selective, I'm done.

 

ETA: BTW I've got a very nice villa in Valyria to sell you.

[Severiality]

And I have already argued why I disagree with your interpretation, and your insistence that there are contradictions in Dany's thoughts, so I won't repeat them here.
 
"If I look back I am lost" is not about her blanking out past thoughts, or distorting memories. Or else passages like "It was [Doreah's] fate, Khaleesi,” said Aggo. If I look back I am lost. “It was a cruel fate,” Dany said, “yet not so cruel as Mago’s will be" would not make sense. I read it as Dany, thinking how foolish and naive she used to be, believing the only way forward is everything changing. Hence why, at the end of ADWD, a book all about identity, she she says "to go forward, I must go back" - she finally realises she must merge some of the old with the new; to be a dragon and a mother, etc.

Lol, ok. Your interpretation carried a certain familiar slant, I called you out on it in a fun way. I gave serious arguments in very next paragraph, anyway.

I have addressed this SEVERAL times. See my latest attempt, in my reply to Lady Sharya, here (point #2).
 
I have also addressed these supposed inconsistencies in Dany's memory, here. More on this, below.

Addressed this already, too. “You warned me that only death could pay for life. I thought you meant the horse.” Past tense in both sentences, and reference to a past event (MMD warning her in the tent), point to "I thought you meant the horse" being a reference to what she had thought in the tent. When she lists the horse, her baby, and the dothraki ("paid and paid and paid"), she is talking about what she thought at present. And, looking at the events, she only started associating the dothraki with "the price", AFTER she saw them die, AFTER the spell started, AFTER she leaves the tent. To sum up Dany's thoughts:
 
In the tent, during the "consultation"-> horse is sacrifice.
Outside the tent, when she sees everybody dying -> horse AND Quaro, Qutho, etc, are the sacrifice.
After her baby dies -> horse, baby, and dothraki are the sacrifice.
 
Thus, no selective memory.

You're rather hung up on this "human life" thing, even though Dany's belief that she would be the sacrifice, is no indication that she thought the sacrifice was to be exclusively human, or that she thought anything at all. I'm not sure what its even supposed to be proof of - that Dany willingly agreed to sacrifice her son?

I talked about "If I look back I am lost" and how it's got nothing to do with selective memory (see above). When Mirri accuses her of knowing the price, Dany questions herself (as she always does). She thinks "had she [known]?" The implication, is "no", because she then thinks "If I look back I am lost" (again, my interpretation of this is above). She realises she was a fool to have once thought it was just a horse, to have not known how high the price was.

 

Oh, and thanks for bringing up "That was a lie you told yourself. You knew the price". That line implies both, that Mirri believed Dany had convinced herself that just a horse was needed, and that she intended to kill a person/people for the spell. Yet Mirri never bothers to correct Dany...which goes back to my original point, that she was intentionally trying to mislead Dany into thinking it was just a horse.
 

My interpretation isn't based on Dany's beliefs, either, but somehow, that is what the discussion turned into.  :dunno:  My original point was that it was highly suspicious that Mirri neglected to inform Dany that her son - or anyone - would die from the spell. What Dany did or did not believe is basically irrelevant.

That's not what Dany first thought.

[Hodor the Articulate]

Dany didn't think about it and/or care.  It's not MMD's job to define words for Dany.  "A life," could mean anyone's life, a child knows that.  Also, Dany doesn't consider the sacrifice may be her loved ones, but she believes it must be her (at first?)  Why?

Forget what Dany does or does not think. You've been working on the premise that Mirri was genuinely helping Dany, correct? Well, wouldn't that involve telling Dany what she might lose, and that the spell would only turn her husband into a robot? If not, then Mirri was not being genuine.

 

Mirri had no obligation to tell Dany anything, of course, but why was Mirri being close-lipped about such crucial information, if she was truly there to help Dany?

 

 

Well, we have to agree that we completely disagree. Your insistence to exlude certain information, beliefs, words, thought processes and events to argue that being selective is the way to go is something I will never agree to.

 

Apparently Dany doesn't consider herself to be a human life. Or considers herself the sole human life. You argue that if Dany can rule herself out as being the price then she suddenly will conclude "Oh, so no human life." And then we still have Dany believing the price being human lives once outside the tent, after the horse was killed.

 

You may have repeated ad nauseum the same BS arguments, they never ever dealt with the arguments we made at all. But hey, if you want to pick one sentence, completely ignore the context and call it "GRRM trimming down the fat" and tell us that we are selective, I'm done.

 

ETA: BTW I've got a very nice villa in Valyria to sell you.

Oh, I see how this goes. What was it you said? "Ad Hominem arguments don't devalue the arguments I brought forward", right?

 

I have replied to each of your arguments. I got lazy, and said "see previous post" for points that I had already covered, but that you seem to have ignored. Many of my points were left undressed, though. I guess you thought they were BS. :crying:

 

And now to address this point, which is a strawman: No, I did not say Dany concluded that the price would not be human life. She could have thought it was, or not. She could have thought nothing at all. But just because she once considered her life, doesn't mean she would forever think "life" definitely meant "human life".