Clarification on Mirri Maz Durr - Part 2

[bent branch]

Perhaps for some. I do like Dany. She's a nice girl with good intentions but they are always at war with the dragon queen part of her that's not quite human. In a battle with the Others, her dragons will be indispensible. It was imperative they be born. Somebody had to be burned for them, and Mirri was there after failing to restore Drogo to her. The dragon queen needs no reason or rationale to burn her; human Dany does and so she blamed her.

Sometimes she has to lose her humanity to fulfill her destiny and 'she can't look back' or she will be 'undone' if she sees herself clearly. But that's the big lesson at the HotU. There's that darkness lurching and shuffling behind her - that's her dragon self - that she will need to face eyes wide open. She can't do that yet but she's getting there.

 

Are you saying that you think Dany somehow knew what the price would be when Mirri didn't? How does the confused teenager knowing more than than the highly educated, mature woman make sense? Either both Dany and Mirri knew what the price would be, or only Mirri really knew what the price would be. These events took place in a short period of time, there was no time for Dany to have any of her dragon dreams or anything. It was just plain, old Dany making these decisions.

 

I see a lot of assumptions being made about how this magic worked. But for all we know the magic caused blood to call to blood. In other words, Rhaego was always the sacrifice whether or not Dany was in the tent, because Drogo's blood called to his blood within Rhaego. Mirri is the one who knew how this magic would work and she implies that Rhaego was always the intended sacrifice. I don't see any reason to doubt her.

[Hodor the Articulate]

Yeah, the horse business really seals the deal for me. It's clear that Mirri is an experienced and competent mage, and that she knew exactly what what needed to be sacrificed. Why, then, does she continue to let Dany believe that just a horse was enough? Pretty suspicious, no?
 

I take offense to being accused of creating a strawman, and name you guilty of this instead. The post refered to did NOT claim Mirri was Dany's victim, nor was it coming from a Dany hater.

It's a long journey from claiming "she was just a passive sap" to claiming she had the power to influence all of the events necessary for the end results to occur.

The entire argument around Mirri being responsible continues upon her BEING A .VICTIM Motive and opportunity do not equal guilt. Has anyone here ever served on a jury trial? Mirri would not be found guilty of killing Drogo or Rhaego in court of law (US anyway). And, Mirri being mean and insensitive to Dany's pain after her and her people's involvement in the complete distruction of her life, is not grounds to burn her alive on a funeral pyle. I like Dany but this was NOT justice.

 
Once again, I suggest you re-read the comment you replied to, because you have misunderstood it. Starting from the top:
 
- I never claimed you thought Mirri was Dany's victim. I said "[bent branch] was not denying that MMD was a victim", because that's what you accused that poster of doing. I then followed with "just that she was not one of Dany's", to clarify what the poster actually said.
 
- I never claimed MMD had the power to influence everything. I merely re-iterated bent branch's argument - that the people who frame MMD completely innocent of everything, rob her of her agency.
 
- I'm not sure what real-life modern US courts have to do with anything. This is literature, not a legal battle.

[Lady Barbrey]

Are you saying that you think Dany somehow knew what the price would be when Mirri didn't? How does the confused teenager knowing more than than the highly educated, mature woman make sense? Either both Dany and Mirri knew what the price would be, or only Mirri really knew what the price would be. These events took place in a short period of time, there was no time for Dany to have any of her dragon dreams or anything. It was just plain, old Dany making these decisions.
 
I see a lot of assumptions being made about how this magic worked. But for all we know the magic caused blood to call to blood. In other words, Rhaego was always the sacrifice whether or not Dany was in the tent, because Drogo's blood called to his blood within Rhaego. Mirri is the one who knew how this magic would work and she implies that Rhaego was always the intended sacrifice. I don't see any reason to doubt her.

No, I don't think Dany consciously knew that Rhaego would be the price to resurrect Drogo and in fact he wasn't. Rhaego was the price for the dragons, not Drogo. Mirri wasn't even thinking of the dragons.

But it was a two part process to birth the dragons. First they had to be unpetrified in the shell (Rhaego's soul/life does this) and then they had to be born in fire and blood. I blame human Dany for blaming and sacrificing Mirri, when Rhaego was an accident Mirri was not responsible for.

[Mithras]

A proposition

 

The “resurrection” magic works like this: the summoned demons are supposed to use a body as a vessel and feed on the life-fire of the sacrifice, by which the vessel will be healed by some of the life-fire flowing through.

 

According to MMD’s setup, Drogo was the vessel, and the horse was the sacrifice. The demons were supposed to inhabit Drogo’s body and feed on the blood of the horse which still had lots of life-fire because it was sacrificed in a ritualistic manner to preserve the life-fire in the blood long enough for the demons to come and feed.

 

Two things unknown to MMD happened: Drogo was not the only body in that tent. MMD forgot the dragon eggs which already started quickening long before the spell. And the other thing was that Dany, who had a placental abruption due to stress and trauma, was brought into the tent.

 

Therefore, the demons used not only Drogo’s body but also the dragon eggs as vessels. They fed on the horse and Rhaego’s life-force and even perhaps Drogo himself a little bit.

 

An important point to remember is that neither Drogo nor the dragon eggs were dead when the ritual was made. Drogo was still moaning unconsciously as Dany was leaving the tent and the dragon eggs have been releasing heat for a long time. Perhaps the demons cannot inhabit a fully dead body. The process must have healed both Drogo’s body and the dragon eggs. But did the dragon eggs have any affliction that needed to be healed?

 

I think so. Those eggs were actually Targaryen eggs and they still bore the genetic damage caused by the poisons of the maesters. The ritual purified the eggs and perhaps that is why Dany was successful whereas Egg failed at Summerhal.

[LmL]

Very nice.  As I said, she likely saved Dany's life but she would never have gotten credit for it. 
 
 

 
Great life tip!
 

 
Salt is really important, isn't it?  It preserves food for travel or winter.  It helps the favor of cooking.  It contains demons in a circle.  And it is a critical part of offering guest right (salt and bread).  Salt - don't leave home without it, y'all!

Don't forget our lord and savior, Azor Ahai the smoked and salted ham.

[Lady Sharya]

Well, of course I disagree about if Rhaego was the intended sacrifice. But the thing that really burns my biscuits is that people who accuse Dany of knowing what would be required, while at the same time saying Mirri didn't know what would be required. It is making an argument based on the fact they don't like Dany.

They both knew a life would be required. Like we have said, the horse wasn't even mentioned until AFTER Dany was told "Only death may pay for life," and she commanded Mirri to perform the bloodmagic.

"Make him another poultice," Dany begged. "This time I will make certain he wears it."
"The time for that is past, my lady," Mirri said. "All I can do now is ease the dark road before him, so he might ride painless to the night lands. He will be gone by morning."
Her words were a knife through Dany's breast. What had she ever done to make the gods so cruel?..."No," she pleaded. "Save him, and I will free you, I swear it. You must know a way...some magic, some..."
Mirri Maz Duur sat back on her heals and studied Daenerys through eyes as black as night. "There is a spell." her voice was quiet, scarcely more than a whisper. "But it is hard, lady, and dark. Some would say that death is cleaner. I learned the way in Asshai, and paid dear for the lesson. My teacher was a bloodmage from the Shadow Lands."
Dany went cold all over. "Then you truly are a maegi..."
"Am I?" Mirri Maz Duur smiled. "Only a maegi can save your rider now, Silver Lady."
"Is there no other way?"
"No other"
Khal Drogo gave a shuddering gasp.
"Do it," Dany blurted out. She must not be afraid; she was the blood of the dragon. "Save him."
"There is a price," the godswife warned her.
"You'll have gold, horses, whatever you like."
"It is not a matter of gold or horses. This is bloodmagic, lady. Only death may pay for life."
"Death?" Dany wrapped her arms around herself protectively, rocked back and forth on her heals. "My death?" She told herself she would die for him, if she must. She was the blood of the dragon, she would not be afraid. Her brother Rhaegar had died for the woman he loved.
"No," Mirri Maz Duur promised. "Not your death, Khaleesi."
Dany trembled with relief. "Do it."
The maegi nodded solemnly. "As you speak, so it shall be done. Call your servants."
Khal Drogo writhed feebly as Rakharo and Quaro lowered him into the bath. "No," he muttered, "no. Must ride." Once in the water, all the strength seemed to leak out of him.
"Bring his horse," Mirri Maz Duur commanded, and so it was done.....
"What do you mean to do?" Dany asked her.
"We need the blood," Mirri answered. "That is the way."

[Lady Sharya]

Yeah, the horse business really seals the deal for me. It's clear that Mirri is an experienced and competent mage, and that she knew exactly what what needed to be sacrificed. Why, then, does she continue to let Dany believe that just a horse was enough? Pretty suspicious, no?

Where in their conversation does Mirri or Dany suggest the horse would be the life that paid for death? Where does she allow Dany to continue thinking this?
 

I'm not sure what real-life modern US courts have to do with anything. This is literature, not a legal battle.

Should we leave out thousands of years of learning how to judge guilt from innocence because this is literature? Why do we bother then? Why bother to analyze Drogo's wounds and Mirri's first-aide treatment from a modern understanding of medicine? Should we think like the superstitious Dothraki in judging Mirri's actions?

[ConfusedCounselor]

Should we leave out thousands of years of learning how to judge guilt from innocence because this is literature? Why do we bother then? Why bother to analyze Drogo's wounds and Mirri's first-aide treatment from a modern understanding of medicine? Should we think like the superstitious Dothraki in judging Mirri's actions?

 

 

Courts, even the silly ones with a jury of peers, have a very specific function that is not applicable to literature/fiction. They are supposed to judge whether sufficient proof is given to determine an accusation to a certain degree of certainty (reasonable doubt, preponderance of evidence are the ones I am aware of). The accusation isn't moral one, or on based on actual justice, it is a lawful one. They have many inbuilt defense mechanisms that (are supposed to) safeguard against government abuse, bias, civil rights abuse and a lot of other stuff. These things aren't very relevant outside of those court cases. Peter Baelish his right to privacy isn't a point in a forum discussion about him. 

 

A work of literature or a piece of fiction often has themes, foreshadowing, partial information that allow you to draw reasonable conclusions, hints, parallels, blanks left open, for you to fill in. Things that are by no means admissible in a criminal court of law or things that are fairly useless if beyond reasonable doubt is required.

 

If Al Capone was a piece of literature you read, the reasonable conclusion would not be that he was merely guilty of tax evasion. Yet it is all the courts managed to make stick.       

[Lady Sharya]

Courts, even the silly ones with a jury of peers, have a very specific function that is not applicable to literature/fiction. They are supposed to judge whether sufficient proof is given to determine an accusation to a certain degree of certainty (reasonable doubt, preponderance of evidence are the ones I am aware of). The accusation isn't moral one, or on based on actual justice, it is a lawful one. They have many inbuilt defense mechanisms that (are supposed to) safeguard against government abuse, bias, civil rights abuse and a lot of other stuff. These things aren't very relevant outside of those court cases. Peter Baelish his right to privacy isn't a point in a forum discussion about him

Don't be silly, I'm not claiming all rules of court systems should be used to judge Mirri, just the basic ones we use every day (hopefully), like I said, motive and opportunity. If only motive is used to judge Mirri then she is GUILTY regardless of what is written in the text. She had plenty of motive, but does the text support her guilt? No it does not.
If someone steels money from your wallet at a dinner party, do you accuse the poorest guest at the table because he/she would have the strongest motive? I hope not.;)
 

A work of literature or a piece of fiction often has themes, foreshadowing, partial information that allow you to draw reasonable conclusions, hints, parallels, blanks left open, for you to fill in. Things that are by no means admissible in a criminal court of law or things that are fairly useless if beyond reasonable doubt is required.

The key here is "reasonable doubt" or "reasonable certainty of guilt." court systems absolutely use circumstantial evidence in the form of what you call "themes, foreshadow, and partial info.
Again, I'm not suggesting Mirri's guilt or innocence should be judged by only the constraints of legal justice, because this case would never pass the DA's office as having enough evidence to take to a trial.

But can we use a little common sense in viewing the evidence? Please?
We read clearly that Mirri applied the appropriate med treatment to heal Drogo. But because some cannot understand why this woman who has suffered atrocities at the hands of him and his Dothraki hoarde would help him, they insist she must have poisoned him. Why? Motive... Is this a reasonable judgement of guilt? No it is not.

[ConfusedCounselor]

Don't be silly, I'm not claiming all rules of court systems should be used to judge Mirri, just the basic ones we use every day (hopefully), like I said, motive and opportunity. If only motive is used to judge Mirri then she is GUILTY regardless of what is written in the text. She had plenty of motive, but does the text support her guilt? No it does not.
If someone steels money from your wallet at a dinner party, do you accuse the poorest guest at the table because he/she would have the strongest motive? I hope not. ;)
 
The key here is "reasonable doubt" or "reasonable certainty of guilt." court systems absolutely use circumstantial evidence in the form of what you call "themes, foreshadow, and partial info.
Again, I'm not suggesting Mirri's guilt or innocence should be judged by only the constraints of legal justice, because this case would never pass the DA's office as having enough evidence to take to a trial.

But can we use a little common sense in viewing the evidence? Please?
We read clearly that Mirri applied the appropriate med treatment to heal Drogo. But because some cannot understand why this woman who has suffered atrocities at the hands of him and his Dothraki hoarde would help him, they insist she must have poisoned him. Why? Motive... Is this a reasonable judgement of guilt? No it is not.

 

Ah, sorry. Got a little carried away in my general annoyance at the whole court thing on this forum. Mirri clearly did not kill Drogo in my mind. Just so strange to see a forum about a series of books so interested in "evidence, courts and extremely high tressholds of proof. 

[Lady Sharya]

Ah, sorry. Got a little carried away in my general annoyance at the whole court thing on this forum. Mirri clearly did not kill Drogo in my mind. Just so strange to see a forum about a series of books so interested in "evidence, courts and extremely high tressholds of proof.

It isn't a high threshold of proof asked for, it's a reasonable, unbiased reading of the text. The only way to combat prejudicial views (Extreme Dany defenders that see any idea that Mirri wasn't guilty as a sign of a Dany hater) is to use common sense and logic.;) Otherwise it simply becomes a battle over Dany positive vs negative biases...which is counterproductive and pointless.

[the trees have eyes]

@ Sweetsunray

 

Re post 6.  The part I really disagree here is how you present Dany's mind as made up and Mirri unable to do anything about it.  That is not accurate.  Dany is just trying to find out what happened and what the hell went wrong.  She already has a clear recollection that Jorah carried her into the tent and that she was warned not to enter the tent (Jorah being absent when the warning was given).

 

In other words she is predisposed to believe Mirri innocent and Jorah the well-intentioned but tragic cause of the catastrophe, something a brief chat with her doctor will confirm.  The Dothraki who remain are also predisposed to believe Mirri innocent as she is given free movement and access to Dany.  She is tolerated, even trusted.

 

What changes this?

 

Mirri absolutely does not pay the part of the physician explaining patiently to the grieving mother and wife why her child is dead and her husband a shell of a man.  She does not offer any sympathy or condolences - far from it, she gloats in the death of her son, of her husband's state and taunts her by claiming she will never have another child.

 

Whether you believe her statements are tantamount to a confession or not (all legalese aside here please) they are definitely not the rational statements and behaviour of an innocent party.  It is this apparent or real acceptance of culpability together with the vitriol and callous twisting of the knife that lead Dany to the conclusion that Mirri did this deliberately.

 

In brief: Dany trusts Mirri and neither she nor the Dothraki hold Mirri responsible for what happened until Mirri opens her mouth and does that for herself.  Mirri has access to Dany even after Rhaego's death.  She has an easy out by playing on Dany's presumption that Jorah's actions were to blame but she never denies responsibility or pleads her innocence.  She is the architect of her own downfall here (for plot reasons aka dragons) but Dany does not presume Mirri's guilt, Mirri leads her to believe it.

 

One simple denial.  That's all I ask.  Is that too much to expect when you are faced with a grieving mother mourning her child?  Common sense says that an innocent party, and a doctor to boot, would exculpate themselves rather than appear to confess to a capital crime.

[Severiality]

@ Sweetsunray

 

Re post 6.  The part I really disagree here is how you present Dany's mind as made up and Mirri unable to do anything about it.  That is not accurate.  Dany is just trying to find out what happened and what the hell went wrong.  She already has a clear recollection that Jorah carried her into the tent and that she was warned not to enter the tent (Jorah being absent when the warning was given).

 

In other words she is predisposed to believe Mirri innocent and Jorah the well-intentioned but tragic cause of the catastrophe, something a brief chat with her doctor will confirm.  The Dothraki who remain are also predisposed to believe Mirri innocent as she is given free movement and access to Dany.  She is tolerated, even trusted.

 

What changes this?

 

Mirri absolutely does not pay the part of the physician explaining patiently to the grieving mother and wife why her child is dead and her husband a shell of a man.  She does not offer any sympathy or condolences - far from it, she gloats in the death of her son, of her husband's state and taunts her by claiming she will never have another child.

 

Whether you believe her statements are tantamount to a confession or not (all legalese aside here please) they are definitely not the rational statements and behaviour of an innocent party.  It is this apparent or real acceptance of culpability together with the vitriol and callous twisting of the knife that lead Dany to the conclusion that Mirri did this deliberately.

 

In brief: Dany trusts Mirri and neither she nor the Dothraki hold Mirri responsible for what happened until Mirri opens her mouth and does that for herself.  Mirri has access to Dany even after Rhaego's death.  She has an easy out by playing on Dany's presumption that Jorah's actions were to blame but she never denies responsibility or pleads her innocence.  She is the architect of her own downfall here (for plot reasons aka dragons) but Dany does not presume Mirri's guilt, Mirri leads her to believe it.

 

One simple denial.  That's all I ask.  Is that too much to expect when you are faced with a grieving mother mourning her child?  Common sense says that an innocent party, and a doctor to boot, would exculpate themselves rather than appear to confess to a capital crime.

Again, there is no admission or confession.  She just doesn't see the outcome as a particularly bad one.  It actually, in her mind, is probably the best result for her people.

 

It is no different from Robert not having a problem with Tywin killing the Targaryen children.  Morally reprehensible, sure, but it doesn't mean Robert ordered it or facilitated it.  He's just fine with the outcome.  AFAIK, no one blames Robert for the children's deaths.

[sweetsunray]

@ Sweetsunray

 

Re post 6.  The part I really disagree here is how you present Dany's mind as made up and Mirri unable to do anything about it.  That is not accurate.  Dany is just trying to find out what happened and what the hell went wrong.  She already has a clear recollection that Jorah carried her into the tent and that she was warned not to enter the tent (Jorah being absent when the warning was given).

 

In other words she is predisposed to believe Mirri innocent and Jorah the well-intentioned but tragic cause of the catastrophe, something a brief chat with her doctor will confirm.  The Dothraki who remain are also predisposed to believe Mirri innocent as she is given free movement and access to Dany.  She is tolerated, even trusted.

 

What changes this?

 

Mirri absolutely does not pay the part of the physician explaining patiently to the grieving mother and wife why her child is dead and her husband a shell of a man.  She does not offer any sympathy or condolences - far from it, she gloats in the death of her son, of her husband's state and taunts her by claiming she will never have another child.

 

Whether you believe her statements are tantamount to a confession or not (all legalese aside here please) they are definitely not the rational statements and behaviour of an innocent party.  It is this apparent or real acceptance of culpability together with the vitriol and callous twisting of the knife that lead Dany to the conclusion that Mirri did this deliberately.

 

In brief: Dany trusts Mirri and neither she nor the Dothraki hold Mirri responsible for what happened until Mirri opens her mouth and does that for herself.  Mirri has access to Dany even after Rhaego's death.  She has an easy out by playing on Dany's presumption that Jorah's actions were to blame but she never denies responsibility or pleads her innocence.  She is the architect of her own downfall here (for plot reasons aka dragons) but Dany does not presume Mirri's guilt, Mirri leads her to believe it.

 

One simple denial.  That's all I ask.  Is that too much to expect when you are faced with a grieving mother mourning her child?  Common sense says that an innocent party, and a doctor to boot, would exculpate themselves rather than appear to confess to a capital crime.

 

Here's the change of mind by Dany

1. Starts by thinking Jorah killed her son by carrying her in. But forgives him, because he carried her in for love, and she sees he's gaunt and touched bythe shadows as well - she states so.

2. Next she quotes Mirrir about only death being able to pay for life and says, "I thought you meant the horse". As established, the horse wasn't asked to be brought into the tent, until after Dany already agreed to "payment with life" thinking it was a human's. Mirri points out that Dany knew the price, and that she lied to herself, and she did.

3. Dany is unwilling to question her personal responsibility of her own choices and thinks "If I look back I'm lost." She sums the price as "Rhaego + bloodriders... The Price was paid and paid and paid," and demands to see what she "bought" with her son's life, and not regarding Mirri as a person anymore, but instead calling her, "godswife, maegi, bloodmage, or whatever you are". So, as soon as Mirri confronts her with her personal choice to sacrifice lives for Drogo's but her own (which was what she said yes to, after Mirri told her "not gold, not horses"), Dany starts to treat Mirri antagonistically.

4. She demands to see Drogo. Mirri is submissive like a slave.

5. Dany learns the khalasar is gone and about Eroeh's fate. Again she thinks "If I look back, I'm lost." She promises that Mago's Jhaqo's fate will have a more cruel ending than Eroeh's. That she is Danaerys Stormborn and they'll die screaming. Jorah and her later bloodriders look at her as if she is not rational anymore. And she isn't at this point.

6. She sees Drogo - not seeming to see or hear, but also how his wound has healed. She confronts Mirri and says, "Your spells are costly, maegi." (Mirri never said otherwise, not with regards the price as the outcome - death would be cleaner). Note also how she again refers to Mirri in an antagonistic manner. Mirri tells her that he lives - Dany asked for life, and she paid for life. Dany states it's no life at all (death would be cleaner). Mirri makes no reply.

7. Dany asks when will he be as he was. Mirri gives her infamous answer that basically means "Never".

8. Dany orders Jorah to leave her so she can talk with "this maegi" alone. This is the 3rd time she refers to Mirri in an antagonistic, subhuman manner.

9. She accuses Mirri of the following - you knew what I was buying (death would be cleaner) and you knew the price I was paying (only death can pay for life), and yet you let me pay it. Well and so did Dany, but lied about it to herself. In fact, she's trying to wilfully put the responsibility of her own choices and demands of Mirri, despite Mirri's warnings from the start, onto Mirri. She's like a customer who went to the shop to have something repaired, with the shopowner telling her - well it'll cost ya a lot, and it won't ever get truly fixed, but the customer ordering, "Just do it, I don't care about the price and return state," and then blaming the shopowner because in hindsight she thinks the bill's too high and and the something isn't truly fixed.

10. Mirri retorts the Great Shepherd was angered, and Dany dismisses it as god's work, thinks again "If I look back I'm lost" and accuses Mirri of cheating and murdering her child. And to this Mirri answers the Stallion Who Mounts the World won't be burning cities.

 

Was Mirri vague? Yes. Does this mean she cheated? No. Magic ain't science with predictable results and costs. Even to Mirri the outcome and price would be vague. She did give Dany a chance to inquire in more detail by mentioning she paid dearly in Ashai when she was taught the ritual. But as soon as Dany learned it wasn't "her own life" she'd have to sacrifice, Dany didn't want to know more. Dany could have inquired what she meant with "death would be cleaner", but Dany didn't want to know - as long as he lived. And despite recognizing early on that Jorah was "culpable" for carrying her in, Dany accuses Mirri of murdering Rhaego, long after she already started to refer to Mirri as a subhuman and antagonistically. Yes, it was very very clear by then that Dany was completely unwilling to look back and face her own responsibility or that of others, was looking to blame Mirri and refused to listen to reason. But oh, if only Mirri had groveled, pleaded for her life, pointed out the obvious flaws in Dany's thinking and claimed her innocense. To someone who refused to accept reality from the get go, who 3 times refuses to look back at her own choices or she'd be lost, claims she'll make bloodriders scream from pain with her khalasar of sick and old and even won't call her by name anymore? Mirri's life was forfeit already, and pride was all that she had left.

[Lady Sharya]

But oh, if only Mirri had groveled, pleaded for her life, pointed out the obvious flaws in Dany's thinking and claimed her innocense. To someone who refused to accept reality from the get go, who 3 times refuses to look back at her own choices or she'd be lost, claims she'll make bloodriders scream from pain with her khalasar of sick and old and even won't call her by name anymore? Mirri's life was forfeit already, and pride was all that she had left.

Excellent post.
This is a representation of Mirri's strength and wisdom in not playing "the hapless victim" pleading forgiveness for an outcome she wasn't responsible for. She knew Dany needed to blame her so she wouldn't have to face her own culpability for demanding the ritual take place. Dany was young and naive to what she was asking for and paid more than she deserved, but she really expected more from Mirri than she was capable of doing under the circumstances (not having her instructions obeyed), and more than Mirri had an obligation to do.

[sweetsunray]

Excellent post.
This is a representation of Mirri's strength and wisdom in not playing "the hapless victim" pleading forgiveness for an outcome she wasn't responsible for. She knew Dany needed to blame her so she wouldn't have to face her own culpability for demanding the ritual take place. Dany was young and naive to what she was asking for and paid more than she deserved, but she really expected more from Mirri than she was capable of doing under the circumstances (not having her instructions obeyed), and more than Mirri had an obligation to do.

 

I do recognize that Dany is in an extreme emotional state, ever since Drogo fell from his horse. Her life and that of her child was in peril from that very moment. I recognize that her youth is the main reason she has this perfect fantasy image of how magic should work. I also recognize that 14 year olds tend to prefer to put blame on anyone but themselves, as I experience daily when I'm in front of a class room. The problem is that this 14 year old who is too young to look at her own choices and recognize her own resposibility in this, too grieved and emotional to make a rational decision and keep a clear view, too inexperienced to resist separating how she wishes things to be from how things only could be is making life and death decisions from a power position like an adult. And if she considers herself old enough to make such adult decisions (as does Arya for example, who is even much younger) then alas her inexperience and her youthfulness and the typical issues of self-accountability related to that age cannot be excused, even though they are mitigating circumstances to her flawed thought process. What saddens me the most about it is that Dany never looked back on it and questioned it (like many of her decisions and conclusions). ETA: Worse, a book later she considers Mirri as Drogo's murderer as well, apparently completely forgetting that it was she herself who smothered him.

 

Mirri being mean and proud is not a reason to burn someone alive. Even Arya realizes this at 10 when Goodwife Amabel threatens her at HH. Arya is in the position as Roose's cupbearer to have Amabel's head lopped off for being mean and petty to her for Arya's involvement in the weasel soup. Arya knows it, but she also knows she wouldn't do such a thing. The sad thing is that readers and Dany know it's a bad excuse, so all logic must be defied and Mirri must be guilty. It's as if what happened to Mirri becomes the justification to find her guilty. As if she can't be innocent of the crime she's accused of, or otherwise her being burned alive and the birth of the dragons becomes too horrid in retrospect, and we'd be lost.

[Hodor the Articulate]

Where in their conversation does Mirri or Dany suggest the horse would be the life that paid for death? Where does she allow Dany to continue thinking this?

When she brought in the horse and said "We need the blood," Mirri answered. "That is the way", then slashed its throat. Expecting someone to not think the horse was the sacrifice, is rather unreasonable, I think.
 

Should we leave out thousands of years of learning how to judge guilt from innocence because this is literature? Why do we bother then? Why bother to analyze Drogo's wounds and Mirri's first-aide treatment from a modern understanding of medicine? Should we think like the superstitious Dothraki in judging Mirri's actions?

What we should do, is not take elements of a fictional story, and put it in a modern context (or any other context). If a character has certain motivations, personality, etc it's not a coincidence - the writer put those things there because he/she wanted to convey something about that character.

[sweetsunray]

When she brought in the horse and said "We need the blood," Mirri answered. "That is the way", then slashed its throat. Expecting someone to not think the horse was the sacrifice, is rather unreasonable, I think.
 

What we should do, is not take elements of a fictional story, and put it in a modern context (or any other context). If a character has certain motivations, personality, etc it's not a coincidence - the writer put those things there because he/she wanted to convey something about that character.

 

Dany said to do it, before any horse was brought in, believing death meant a human life. When she's outside of the tent and Dothraki started to slay each other and pelt her with stones, she thinks the "price is too high" and attempts to crawl back to the tent to stop it. Dany knew it would be human life that would be the price.

[Lady Sharya]

I do recognize that Dany is in an extreme emotional state, ever since Drogo fell from his horse. Her life and that of her child was in peril from that very moment. I recognize that her youth is the main reason she has this perfect fantasy image of how magic should work. I also recognize that 14 year olds tend to prefer to put blame on anyone but themselves, as I experience daily when I'm in front of a class room. The problem is that this 14 year old who is too young to look at her own choices and recognize her own resposibility in this, too grieved and emotional to make a rational decision and keep a clear view, too inexperienced to resist separating how she wishes things to be from how things only could be is making life and death decisions from a power position like an adult. And if she considers herself old enough to make such adult decisions (as does Arya for example, who is even much younger) then alas her inexperience and her youthfulness and the typical issues of self-accountability related to that age cannot be excused, even though they are mitigating circumstances to her flawed thought process. What saddens me the most about it is that Dany never looked back on it and questioned it (like many of her decisions and conclusions).
 
Mirri being mean and proud is not a reason to burn someone alive. Even Arya realizes this at 10 when Goodwife Amabel threatens her at HH. Arya is in the position as Roose's cupbearer to have Amabel's head lopped off for being mean and petty to her for Arya's involvement in the weasel soup. Arya knows it, but she also knows she wouldn't do such a thing. The sad thing is that readers and Dany know it's a bad excuse, so all logic must be defied and Mirri must be guilty. It's as if what happened to Mirri becomes the justification to find her guilty. As if she can't be innocent of the crime she's accused of, or otherwise her being burned alive and the birth of the dragons becomes too horrid in retrospect, and we'd be lost.

  
I couldn't agree more on everything said here.:) it is very late for me, so Tomorrow I will have more to say on it.

When she brought in the horse and said "We need the blood," Mirri answered. "That is the way", then slashed its throat. Expecting someone to not think the horse was the sacrifice, is rather unreasonable, I think.

We need blood means we need blood. That isn't even close to "life must pay for death." Dany knew full well it was a human life when she asked if Mirri meant her's. The horse wasn't even mentioned until after Dany is okay with a life for death. When Dany offers gold and horses, Mirri tells her that gold and horses won't be enough. How can she then think ONE horse will pay the price? It doesn't even make sense.
 

What we should do, is not take elements of a fictional story, and put it in a modern context (or any other context). If a character has certain motivations, personality, etc it's not a coincidence - the writer put those things there because he/she wanted to convey something about that character.

I spent a lot of time bringing in the scene from the book because it's on a Kindle I couldn't copy n paste. I'm not asking for anything more than common sense in reading what the writer actually wrote instead adding a whole bunch of irrelevant rationale to see the story from a biased perspective and then expecting others to also.
You are free to do as you wish, I prefer to analyze GRRM's intent by his actually words.

[Severiality]

When she brought in the horse and said "We need the blood," Mirri answered. "That is the way", then slashed its throat. Expecting someone to not think the horse was the sacrifice, is rather unreasonable, I think.
 

What we should do, is not take elements of a fictional story, and put it in a modern context (or any other context). If a character has certain motivations, personality, etc it's not a coincidence - the writer put those things there because he/she wanted to convey something about that character.

Why would Dany ask if she herself needed to die if she didn't believe that a human life was required?