Dawn, Dayne, defeated by Ned and Howland? Possible explanation

[Lord Buckethead]

 

*Everybody dies except Howland, Ned and Arthur. But Arthur is dying. Ned is about to be defeated, though*

 

A: I swore a vow. Protect the King.

N: The King is dead.

A: You know nothing, Stark. (sorry, I had to). It's a King we guard here. The legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen. Your Usurper friend will finish him off...

N: Rhaegar... Lyanna? Lyanna gave birth a child? I heard... he raped her...

A: He loved her. He was happy here. It was his tower of joy... He was my Kign. The  baby is my King now. But I thought... you should know before you go. Yor friends were brave, but you were right. Now, it ends.

Reed: Wait! You won't survive... what will happen with the baby?

A: Someone will... <dying> take care...

R: Who?? Your friends are dead! And you're right. Robert Baratheon will kill him as soon as he knows he's Rhaegar blood. But Ned is also his blood! We'll take him. And Lyanna too.

N: I would never let anyone hurt my sister's child!

A: I also have one sister, Stark. Take Dawn to her, and to my brother. Protect my King, Ned Stark.

 

I may be a bit slow, but assuming this is how things progressed, how did this save Ned? It seems to me that Ned didn't need saving if Arthur Dayne was already dying from his wounds?

 

Or are we supposed to assume that Howland's shouting out caused a distraction that made Arthur Dayne lose his concentration so that Ned could strike Arthur down? Would a fine swordsman like AD fall for such a trick? Would Ned still call him a great swordsman if he did?

 

My personal belief is that Dayne didn't die in battle. He may have died later on, from the wounds he recieved in that battle, but I think at least he was alive long enough to have a rather lengthy conversation with Howland Reed first - the man whose clever words made Arthur stay his blade at the crucial moment, instead of delivering the killing blow to Ned Stark. It wouldn't even surprise me if it turns out that Arthur Dayne is actually still alive, hiding somewhere (at Greywater watch for example), or hiding his true identity. I also suspect that Dayne was the one who accompanied Howland Reed into the room where "they" found Ned beside Lyanna who had just died.

 

One more thing I'd like to add, regarding the number of participants in the battle. I think the number of participants at the beginning might be irrelevant when trying to understand how Ned and Howland could overcome Dayne (if they even did!) Yes, there were 7 against 3 to begin with, but at its final moment there were 2 against 1: Ned+HR versus AD. 

[The scourge of westeros]

I don't care how great a fighter dayne was, the combination of poisoned weapons, net, and a 2 on 1 fight would be more than enough to seal Dayne's fate IMO. Poison would be especially detrimental to dayne, the faster your heart pumps, the faster the poison takes effect.

[The scourge of westeros]

It's made clear that crannogmen use poisoned weapons, there's a reason howland was placed at that fight.

[ASOIAF_Ali]

Who said Ned was average?

I think GRRM called Ned an average swordsman, I could be wrong though

[OuttaOldtown]

It's made clear that crannogmen use poisoned weapons, there's a reason howland was placed at that fight.

It's made clear by Little Walder Frey:

Mudmen are sneaks, they won't fight like decent folks, they skulk and use poison arrows. You never see them, but they see you. Those who go into the bogs after them get lost and never come out. Their houses move, even the castles like Greywater Watch.

Their long time enemy is hardly the most reliable source. I don't think it's made 'clear'..

[The scourge of westeros]

It's made clear by Little Walder Frey:


Their long time enemy is hardly the most reliable source. I don't think it's made 'clear'..

Doesn't Theon at moat cailin notice poisoned ironborn or something? I thought that was attributed to the crannogmen harassing them.

[denny717]

I think GRRM called Ned an average swordsman, I could be wrong though

I don't know if he did. But we don't hear anybody in westeros saying he was a great swordsman. If someone is good, we usually get a character mentioning their prowess. Ned is tough to judge because he doesn't compete in tourneys. I think because there's not much mention of Ned's skill people on the forums assume he's average. I like to think he's a bit more than average though. He held his own at the toj, and dueling big bob everyday for practice as a teenager means he's had experience against epic warriors before.

[OuttaOldtown]

Doesn't Theon at moat cailin notice poisoned ironborn or something? I thought that was attributed to the crannogmen harassing them.

Their association with poison is unproven, their association with the green men is more clear. What does Theon know of Crannogmen? I see no indication from Howland's actions in the story of TKatLT or from Meera & Jojen in their time with Bran that they're sneaky poisoners..

[ASOIAF_Ali]

I don't know if he did. But we don't hear anybody in westeros saying he was a great swordsman. If someone is good, we usually get a character mentioning their prowess. Ned is tough to judge because he doesn't compete in tourneys. I think because there's not much mention of Ned's skill people on the forums assume he's average. I like to think he's a bit more than average though. He held his own at the toj, and dueling big bob everyday for practice as a teenager means he's had experience against epic warriors before.

yeah I agree with you, he may not have been legendary like Arthur Dayne or Barristan Selmy because we'd have heard of it, but if he wasn't good he probably wouldn't have survived as far as he did. I think he's a much better general than swordsman though, I'm not too sure. 

[The scourge of westeros]

Their association with poison is unproven, their association with the green men is more clear. What does Theon know of Crannogmen? I see no indication from Howland's actions in the story of TKatLT or from Meera & Jojen in their time with Bran that they're sneaky poisoners..

You may well be right, but I still think poison is part of the crannogmen's repertoire. Hell even victarion was smart enough to fear their arrows.

[OuttaOldtown]

You may well be right, but I still think poison is part of the crannogmen's repertoire. Hell even victarion was smart enough to fear their arrows.

This jumps out at me a lot more than poison as to the question of how he saved Ned:

but he could breathe mud and run on leaves, and change earth to water and water to earth with no more than a whispered word. He could talk to trees and weave words and make castles appear and disappear."

[The scourge of westeros]

This jumps out at me a lot more than poison as to the question of how he saved Ned:

I'm going a bit off topic but...
Do you think those abilities to be real? And if so would you attribute them to be ancestral or due to his supposed contact with the green men on the IOF?

[Damp Hair - The Prophet]

What? Dudes the Cranogmen poison their arrows. This isnt really up for debate. Probably sourced from frogs like indigunous peoples. Vic Says explicitly in one POV about his time fending them off at MoatCailin that sore shoulders from wearing chain mail all the time is better than if u were so much as scratched by a bog devil arrow an hour later your life would be running out your ass in gouts of brown and red.

I like to think of Ironborn vs Cranogmen in this instance like the US vs Vietcong.

Can u imagine how horrible a death to fall into & hidden pit of spikes that have been smeared in shit & offal?

No thank you.

[The scourge of westeros]

Ralf kenning and harren botley died from montezuma's revenge😂😂😂

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

Their association with poison is unproven, their association with the green men is more clear.

 

Umm... the other way around. The green men are made mostly of legend, while the poisoned arrow that made Ralf Kennnig rot alive is a fact.

[OuttaOldtown]

What? Dudes the Cranogmen poison their arrows. This isnt really up for debate. Probably sourced from frogs like indigunous peoples. Vic Says explicitly in one POV about his time fending them off at MoatCailin that sore shoulders from wearing chain mail all the time is better than if u were so much as scratched by a bog devil arrow an hour later your life would be running out your ass in gouts of brown and red.

I like to think of Ironborn vs Cranogmen in this instance like the US vs Vietcong.

Can u imagine how horrible a death to fall into & hidden pit of spikes that have been smeared in shit & offal?

No thank you.

But Howland did not use poison to defend himself when he was attacked at Harrenhall/the Gods Eye, they are not conquered or war-like. There's no case of them (Howland, Meera or Jojen)using poison against enemies in the story despite having chances. They use their environment as a defense mechanism. The best hint is that Knights would sink in the mud in their heavy armor when they tried taking GWW. I do not buy poison killed Arthur Dayne theory or that Howland was using s poison arrows to help in the fight. They are hunters, I don't doubt they use poisons but it's not what defines them..

[OuttaOldtown]

I'm going a bit off topic but...
Do you think those abilities to be real? And if so would you attribute them to be ancestral or due to his supposed contact with the green men on the IOF?

Keep in mind his reason for going was to learn from the green men on the IoF,, not to show up at a tourney. And yes, I think it's a real ability he had. Not all Crags..

[Ferocious Veldt Roarer]

But Howland did not use poison to defend himself when he was attacked at Harrenhall/the Gods Eye, they are not conquered or war-like. There's no case of them using poison against enemies in the story despite having chances.

 

And now I think you have not read the books. Yes, the crannogmen do use poison against their enemies. Everyone in-story agrees on that. We saw the effect of their arrows. What are you talking about?

[OuttaOldtown]

 
And now I think you have not read the books. Yes, the crannogmen do use poison against their enemies. Everyone in-story agrees on that. We saw the effect of their arrows. What are you talking about?

I should have been more clear, between Howland & his two children we have no cases of them using poison. If George wanted to make their useage if poison so important he'd include it in their individual characteristics as he did with Oberyn & Tyene..

[Cagey Bee]

Honestly.. even if crannogmen use poison, there is nothing in the Tower of Joy scene to imply poison. It doesn't mean there wasn't poison, but it does seem to me that if Howland Reed did intervene violently, poison would be the least likely way to go about it. If.