Dawn, Dayne, defeated by Ned and Howland? Possible explanation

[purple-eyes]

Ned said he would have died but for Howland Reed.  I'm going with that.  I don't believe anything happened with the sword unless Howland knocked it out of his hand or away from Ned.

This. I do not think Dawn can do anything in this case to defeat arthur.

It is some magic or trick of reed.
And arthur likely injured reed badly.

[Cragen]

Everything about ToJ is odd and don't make sense, except lyanna dying giving birth to Rhaegar child. I think it's written in that way because something else was happened there and it would be important for story. I don't have any clue what that may be.

[syrioforelseesforreal]

I like this theory a lot, tho I don't think it very likely. I fully support the idea that LB has to be activated in some way, and maybe is dawn, or dawn was LB and another sword can be LB. HR defeating Dayne fair and square is not as far fetched as it seems, Dayne likely never fought a crannogman, and could easily be thrown off by a net, n spear. Meera did capture a 'friggen Direwolf with the same technique.

[SevasTra82]

Not sure really why it's hard to believe that Neds party could take out Dayne and Co.

 

Think about what happened.  7 vs. 3, and one of them is (presumably) a master at using poison weapons.  It''s very possible there could have been some 4-on-1 match ups in that battle, and I don't care how tough you are...that's not an easy matchup for *anyone*, including Arthur Dayne.

 

One can assume, based on Neds dream, that it eventually boiled down to Arthur Dayne vs. Ned and Howland.  So even in a 7 vs 3 matchup, the 3 of them managed to kill off 5 of the 7 on their own.  And if it wasn't for Howland Reed, Ned woudl of been killed by Dayne (and Howland probably soon after) by Dayne.

 

I think the battle was written well enough to which it made Dayne, Whent, and the Bull to look like major badasses, but still human enough to struggle against 5 additional men.

[Cagey Bee]

Now, this is a little tinfoil...

I personally like the idea that Howland stopped Arthur with some choice words. The quote is something like, "And Arthur would have killed me, but not for Howland Reed." Not exact, but it gets the point across. He never said that Howland ever actually attacked him.. This opens up a possible connection (very much a matter of speculation, not fact) that Howland maybe got together with Ashara Dayne, making Arthur his kin by marriage. This would add believeable leverage to the Stark party overtaking these Kingsguards, Arthur Dayne being the chief danger among them. Really though, the theory is interesting http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/89012-howland-reed-ashara-dayne-meera-jojen/. I don't exactly subscribe to every part of this theory, but this is one of the ones I really want to be true.

[Cragen]

Now, this is a little tinfoil...
I personally like the idea that Howland stopped Arthur with some choice words. The quote is something like, "And Arthur would have killed me, but not for Howland Reed." Not exact, but it gets the point across. He never said that Howland ever actually attacked him.. This opens up a possible connection (very much a matter of speculation, not fact) that Howland maybe got together with Ashara Dayne, making Arthur his kin by marriage. This would add believeable leverage to the Stark party overtaking these Kingsguards, Arthur Dayne being the chief danger among them. Really though, the theory is interesting http://asoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/topic/89012-howland-reed-ashara-dayne-meera-jojen/. I don't exactly subscribe to every part of this theory, but this is one of the ones I really want to be true.

I also like Howland+Ashara theory.
I imaging how Howland distracted Arthur with words.
Howland: Hey Arthur, I fucked your sister
Arthur: WHAT!?
Ned: Stab. Stab

[RobOsevens]

Arthur Dayne is awesome.

I think he was defeated because of a dirty trick by the crannogman.

 

I believe in quality over quantity.

^This.

 

I always figured that Reed hamstrung Dayne while Dayne was busy with Ned. 

Like Ned was holding on for dear life just trying to stay alive while Reed was the last survivor of the rest of the fight, Reed gets Dayne from behind before Dayne realizes he is the last one the KG alive.

[Cagey Bee]

I also like Howland+Ashara theory.
I imaging how Howland distracted Arthur with words.
Howland: Hey Arthur, I fucked your sister
Arthur: WHAT!?
Ned: Stab. Stab

Gahaha, they played with Baseketball rules.

[Dorian Martell]

This thought was inspired by the podcast of james johnson on youtube.  

 

How could Dayne be defeated by ned and howland?  I'm sure they were average fighters even above average.  Dayne will be remembered historically as a great fighter.

 

So how could he have lost?  Perhaps when Jon Snow was born, Dawn (being lightbringer), turned "on" or "ignited" in a way that during battle, Dayne lost his grip due to the sudden infusion of light and heat from the sword.

 

It seems more plausible then ned got lucky and howland was there.  Perhaps the sword of the morning was distracted and the disadvantage of the sword turning on in that brief moment of the birth of jon snow, caused him to lose the battle.

 

Thoughts please?

dawn was never activated. Ned has no memory of a dawn suddenly catching fire, and Howland fought with net and poisoned spear/arrows. That is the most likely explanation for how Dayne was defeated

[purple-eyes]

I also like Howland+Ashara theory.
I imaging how Howland distracted Arthur with words.
Howland: Hey Arthur, I fucked your sister
Arthur: WHAT!?
Ned: Stab. Stab

 

Will this make him a kinslayer?

And Ashara were still OK to marry him?

[Cagey Bee]

 

Will this make him a kinslayer?

And Ashara were still OK to marry him?

The theory is that they were married beforehand. As for the kinslayer part.. if Ned killed him, then Ned killed him. Truthfully, there are a lot of inconsistencies with the Arthur thing; it leaves me wondering if we just have no clue to the truth. Why would Starfall be so friendly to Ned? They lent him the wetnurse that later nursed their heir. They named said heir similar to Ned. These things raise a lot of questions. I don't really belive anyone in Westeros would treat the slayer of their paragon with such respect. Something more is going on here. It's just... the possiblites are wide and the theories are based on unreliable testimony and very circumstantial evidence.. We really won't be able to answer for sure what happened, truly. We'll just have to wait for George to tell us (and I think he will soon).

[Craster'sFavouriteSon]

Right question is why they're fighting at all? I doubt that KGs was thinking that Ned will harm his sister and her child. Ned is best men to protect Lyanna and her child. Beside of that why don't let men to see his dying sister? After all they are honorable men, especially Arthur Dayne.

 

It really needs to be explained why they fought? When Rhaegar left the three KG there do you think he told them "so yeah guys, you're my most trusted friends and the best of the Kingsguard, I'm going to leave you here to protect my lover and possibly son, but if the enemy happens to come by, just let them through without a fuss". Isn't it painfully obvious that if Rhaegar ordered them to stay at the Tower of Joy despite the fact that he's going to ride off to the deciding battle of the war alone and the safety of the rest of the royal family, including his own wife and children, is considered less important than whoever's in that tower, that what they're guarding merits more diligence than simply letting a party of the enemy saunter past them? 

[Cragen]

Will this make him a kinslayer?
And Ashara were still OK to marry him?

I meant this dialogue to be joke, I should have separate this. Sorry, I can be clumsy with my writing. About Howland+Ashara and ToJ, I share Cagey Bee doubts.

[Cragen]

It really needs to be explained why they fought? When Rhaegar left the three KG there do you think he told them "so yeah guys, you're my most trusted friends and the best of the Kingsguard, I'm going to leave you here to protect my lover and possibly son, but if the enemy happens to come by, just let them through without a fuss". Isn't it painfully obvious that if Rhaegar ordered them to stay at the Tower of Joy despite the fact that he's going to ride off to the deciding battle of the war alone and the safety of the rest of the royal family, including his own wife and children, is considered less important than whoever's in that tower, that what they're guarding merits more diligence than simply letting a party of the enemy saunter past them?

First, Rhaegar is dead, loyalist forces are destroyed, king is dead, King's Landing captured and KGs waiting in ToJ with child and dying Lyanna. It's easy to say that they are easy targets. If they won't to keep child alive, best possible option is to run. If you want to get this child on IT best option is to run. But no they wait. What if Robert has come with small army? When it's to late to run they get lucky, becouse they are catched by Ned Lyanna's brother and they think best thing they can do is go in front of tower and fight Ned and co. 3 on 7 are not best odds doesn't matter how good you are. Why would they think that he would hurt his sister or her child? Is Ned known child murder? Why not negotiating? Argument that they want child on IT and they know that Ned would not allow it is reason why they fight don't make sense or KG are not honorable at all. They know what Arys has done to Ned father and brother and they know that he fight in this war because it is the only way for him to stay alive and they will fight him before they let him see his dying sister. If this is true they are biggest shits in Westeros.

[White Ravens]

This thought was inspired by the podcast of james johnson on youtube.  

 

How could Dayne be defeated by ned and howland?  I'm sure they were average fighters even above average.  Dayne will be remembered historically as a great fighter.

 

So how could he have lost?  Perhaps when Jon Snow was born, Dawn (being lightbringer), turned "on" or "ignited" in a way that during battle, Dayne lost his grip due to the sudden infusion of light and heat from the sword.

 

It seems more plausible then ned got lucky and howland was there.  Perhaps the sword of the morning was distracted and the disadvantage of the sword turning on in that brief moment of the birth of jon snow, caused him to lose the battle.

 

Thoughts please?

 

Yes, Arthur Dayne was one of the greatest warriors of his time, but they were still outnumbered 7 to 3.  Action movies and superhero movies always make it look like superior fighters can defeat whole armies single-handedly, but that is not likely how things really work.  The text hangs Dayne's defeat upon some action by Howland Reed, so for now that is a good enough explanation.  Your idea of Dawn lighting up and activating when Jon Snow was born is straight up speculation of the crackpot variety.

[Cagey Bee]

 

 The text hangs Dayne's defeat upon some action by Howland Reed, so for now that is a good enough explanation.

It hangs on the fight ending by Howland Reed's intervention. Degrees, I know.. but degrees matter with so little information.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

That's Aerys' madness and quite illegal.

 

Why is it illegal for a king to pick his heir? sure, tradition and custom dictates that Aegon should have been heir.. but Aerys can still try to change the line of succession..

 

Jaehaerys did it (at first), Viserys I did it, Robb as well.. choosing Jon over Sansa.

[JonCon's Red Beard]

If HR had used some trickery, Ned wouldn't think so high of him.

 

Everybody assumes the worst, or a fight. "He would have killed me but for Howland Reed" could mean many things.

 

This is when you need to use the "out of the box" thinking, not to talk about lemon trees and fake identities.

 

*Everybody dies except Howland, Ned and Arthur. But Arthur is dying. Ned is about to be defeated, though*

 

A: I swore a vow. Protect the King.

N: The King is dead.

A: You know nothing, Stark. (sorry, I had to). It's a King we guard here. The legitimate son of Rhaegar Targaryen. Your Usurper friend will finish him off...

N: Rhaegar... Lyanna? Lyanna gave birth a child? I heard... he raped her...

A: He loved her. He was happy here. It was his tower of joy... He was my Kign. The  baby is my King now. But I thought... you should know before you go. Yor friends were brave, but you were right. Now, it ends.

Reed: Wait! You won't survive... what will happen with the baby?

A: Someone will... <dying> take care...

R: Who?? Your friends are dead! And you're right. Robert Baratheon will kill him as soon as he knows he's Rhaegar blood. But Ned is also his blood! We'll take him. And Lyanna too.

N: I would never let anyone hurt my sister's child!

A: I also have one sister, Stark. Take Dawn to her, and to my brother. Protect my King, Ned Stark.

[Cragen]

Why is it illegal for a king to pick his heir? sure, tradition and custom dictates that Aegon should have been heir.. but Aerys can still try to change the line of succession..
 
Jaehaerys did it (at first), Viserys I did it, Robb as well.. choosing Jon over Sansa.

And they claim that if they were in KL Arys will still sit on IT, it doesn't sound like they will question legality of his heir.

[LordToo-Fat-to-Sit-a-Horse]

And they claim that if they were in KL Arys will still sit on IT, it doesn't sound like they will question legality of his heir.

 

true.. but the one who says that, is actually ser GErold.. we do have reason to suspect the other two, Dayne and Whent, were actually loyal to Rhaegar, and not to Aerys

 

 

still the presence of Ser Gerold, could be explained by the fact that they remain in an isolated place, they probably wouln`t have heard of Aerys decree naming Viserys as his heir.